I spoke with my Ukrainian friend

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

She is now living in NYC and is a US Citizen.

 

of course we must stay out of the fight. But the next front is the Baltics which are NATO.

 

Neighborhoods are burning and people are taking shelter in subway stations. I think only three cities have subways.

 

I texted with another friend who is in Ukr who wants help getting out of the country. It is not possible to send help, all the ATMs have been depleted and the borders are already packed with refugees. 

 

Even folks in Crimea which is in Russian hands and not part of the fight want to leave.

[Subdeacon Joe]

[J-BAR #18287]

Please continue to share whatever you can.  I trust you and your friends’ perspective more than any other news source.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

A short history lesson here. Ukraine, especially Western Ukraine  Has bounced back and forth between Empires for centuries even millennia. That was when it was “the Ukraine”, just a territory up for grabs. It was part of the Polish Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire, then Poland, after WWI, then USSR from the secret protocols of the Malenkov-Ribbentrop treaty.

 

Remember the Charge of the Light Brigade? When the British Empire made a grab for Crimea and lost?

 

Stalin had policies which would eradicate Ukrainians and make land and homes available for Russians, not all that different from Hitler’s lebensraum policies. The famine genocide of the 30s, Holodomor. In WW2 Ukrainian divisions were sent in ahead of Russian divisions. After WW2 the Tatars were deported from Crimea to Siberia. Stalin thought they had collaborated with the Nazis, he was probably right, they hated Stalin more than Hitler. The Tatars were the remnants of Genghis Khan’s empire.

 

under Stalin official documents could be in any of two or more languages, depending on the population, but Polish was banned for usage anywhere.

 

So, in the modern times.

 

Ukraine is a sovereign nation, no longer “the Ukraine” a territory up for grabs

 

a few years ago, Afghanis and Sudanese got to the Polish border and were beaten back with Batons. Now the refugees at the Polish border are greeted as countrymen.

[Rye Miles #13621]

198 civilians dead including 3 children, Putin is a demon!

[Cypress Sun]

12 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

198 civilians dead including 3 children, Putin is a demon!

 

That total will go up, way up. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

That total will go up, way up. 

Of course it will! Sad!

[Trailrider #896]

Fox had a Ukranian official saying over 1,000 Russian soldiers have been KIA.  A report last night claimed that a Ukranian pilot nicknamed "MiG 31 Ghost" had shot down two (2) large Russian IL-??? transports, killing 500 Russian paratroopers.  On an island, three Ukrainians were ordered to surrender by a Russian ship. The reply was, "Russian ship, go ---k yourself!" The Russian ship fired on the island, killing the Ukrainian troops!   A Ukrainian Marine carried explosive charges to a bridge.  With approaching Russian troops, he could not escape the explosion that took down the bridge.  I don't know if Ukraine has a MOH, but this troop deserves to be awarded one posthumously!  There have been instructions at various police stations...on how to make Molotov cocktails!  

 

What concerns me is the threats against the Baltic states that Putin has implied. Since these states are NATO members, if he is nuts enough (which he may be) we could be seeing World War III (or IV, depending on your count)!  Hopefully, some of his "inner circles" will get alarmed enough to remove him from power, the way Khruscev was removed after the Cuban missile crisis...maybe a nice dacha someplace without communication to the outside world.  

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

I think Putin thought this would be a modern Blitzkrieg and the Ukrainians would gold like wet cardboard.

He was wrong. 
And I think he underestimated the international response. And protests are growing in Russia. 
The Dutch just announced they are sending 400 anti tank missies and Stingers. We have been sending Javelins since 2017.

I wouldn’t put much stock in casualty numbers announced from either side right now.

Let the record show that I do not drink Russian Vodka.
 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

19 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

On an island, three Ukrainians were ordered to surrender by a Russian ship. The reply was, "Russian ship, go ---k yourself!" The Russian ship fired on the island, killing the Ukrainian troops!   A Ukrainian Marine carried explosive charges to a bridge.  With approaching Russian troops, he could not escape the explosion that took down the bridge.  I don't know if Ukraine has a MOH, but this troop deserves to be awarded one posthumously! 

 

Google snake island.

 

the medal is Hero of Ukraine.

[Il Duce]

Very interesting stance to take... "We shouldn't be involved unless they attack more allies". They've already attacked a sovereign nation. Killing innocent people. I don't think the U.S. needs to involve themselves in everything, but there is a moral necessity especially when a country is being bullied and destroyed.

 

One way or another the U.S. is going to get involved. If you don't think it'll happen, you haven't been paying attention to history. The question is when. Will it be our terms or forced on us?

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

8 minutes ago, Primus Palus said:

Very interesting stance to take... "We shouldn't be involved unless they attack more allies". 

The operative words are “more allies “. They were never an ally. But we did send equipment and trainers, I think it was special forces. Now the Ukr Army is much stronger and better trained than it was in 2014.

[Trailrider #896]

30 minutes ago, Primus Palus said:

Very interesting stance to take... "We shouldn't be involved unless they attack more allies". They've already attacked a sovereign nation. Killing innocent people. I don't think the U.S. needs to involve themselves in everything, but there is a moral necessity especially when a country is being bullied and destroyed.

 

One way or another the U.S. is going to get involved. If you don't think it'll happen, you haven't been paying attention to history. The question is when. Will it be our terms or forced on us?

 

You don't mean something like the sinking of the Lusitania? Or Dec. 7, 1941? Or 9/11/2001?  One thing we need to do is resume construction of Keystone pipeline, and resume drilling for oil and natural gas in this country.   

[J-BAR #18287]

A bill to that effect could be introduced in Congress in a matter of hours.

 

It would be interesting to see who might vote against it.

[Buckshot Bear]

This is a bit depressing to read - 

 

With the war in Ukraine, US resolve is crucial — and yet we can see the sunset on the American century

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-27/war-on-ukraine-where-did-americas-great-power-go/100859774

 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

5 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Fox had a Ukranian official saying over 1,000 Russian soldiers have been KIA.  A report last night claimed that a Ukranian pilot nicknamed "MiG 31 Ghost" had shot down two (2) large Russian IL-??? transports, killing 500 Russian paratroopers.  On an island, three Ukrainians were ordered to surrender by a Russian ship. The reply was, "Russian ship, go ---k yourself!" The Russian ship fired on the island, killing the Ukrainian troops!   A Ukrainian Marine carried explosive charges to a bridge.  With approaching Russian troops, he could not escape the explosion that took down the bridge.  I don't know if Ukraine has a MOH, but this troop deserves to be awarded one posthumously!  There have been instructions at various police stations...on how to make Molotov cocktails!  

 

What concerns me is the threats against the Baltic states that Putin has implied. Since these states are NATO members, if he is nuts enough (which he may be) we could be seeing World War III (or IV, depending on your count)!  Hopefully, some of his "inner circles" will get alarmed enough to remove him from power, the way Khruscev was removed after the Cuban missile crisis...maybe a nice dacha someplace without communication to the outside world.  

 

 

That’s been proven false this is a huge propaganda war also , both sides are wrong . Media is playing to distract you 

when you see it in this picture 

[Utah Bob #35998]

All wars contain a big element of propaganda. Having been involved in one that included routine inflation of body counts, I discount the numbers given by both sides here. The media generally isn't at fault as long as they say where the numbers came from. Belief in those numbers is another thing.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

7 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I think Putin thought this would be a modern Blitzkrieg and the Ukrainians would gold like wet cardboard.

He was wrong. 

 

Hope so. The Nazi blitzkrieg against France took six weeks, and there was more resistance in the early days than is much remembered.

 

Time will tell, I guess.

[Utah Bob #35998]

56 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

Hope so. The Nazi blitzkrieg against France took six weeks, and there was more resistance in the early days than is much remembered.

 

Time will tell, I guess.

 

 

 

 

The French initially had much better armor than the Germans. But much worse leadership unfortunately.

[bgavin]

The (forgotten) lesson taught by Neville Chamberlain is coming back to the forefront today.

[Buckshot Bear]

Our Prime Minister has just announced that Australia will be sending 'lethal aid' to Ukraine.

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

A shortwave listening group lists Russian bomber frequency as 8.131 USB (upper sideband) and also posted a photo of a frequency list taken from a Russian soldier.
    I do not reckon to put much faith in this list, interesting though it is: Russia is a past master at misdirection and deception.

Nor do I trust much by way of media reports:
"The first duty of the news in wartime is to mislead the enemy: its second duty is to reassure the populace.

"Seldom if ever will there be a small residuum of fact."

[Chantry]

17 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

This is a bit depressing to read - 

 

With the war in Ukraine, US resolve is crucial — and yet we can see the sunset on the American century

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-27/war-on-ukraine-where-did-americas-great-power-go/100859774

 

 

The author was very wrong about China, there was no way a communist China was going accept a secondary position to the US or the West.

 

The West probably should have done more to get Russia "included" in Europe, but that's a two way street and I don't think the Russians have ever been able to accept that they are no longer a global power.  Without their nuclear weapons and energy supplies, they could be considered a third world country.

 

Since Hiroshima and Nagasaki the world's nuclear powers have never directly engaged each other in war*.  It's only been done through proxies.  

 

The last thing we want is a direct confrontation between NATO and Russia where we back Putin into a corner.  Prior to the invasion of Ukraine  I had considered Putin to be intelligent and rational, but now I question that assessment (or I'm missing a key piece to the puzzle).  Unfortunately right now I think Putin would use nuclear missiles if backed into a corner.  Putin's is behaving as if he has nothing to lose right now.

 

*Communist China did not become a nuclear power until 1964.

 

[Chantry]

9 hours ago, bgavin said:

The (forgotten) lesson taught by Neville Chamberlain is coming back to the forefront today.

Chamberlain didn't have much of a choice, the British & French militaries were in no shape for war

[bgavin]

Or, Chamberlain was an utter fool of the Biden caliber.

Either way, appeasement is appeasement.
Feeding the crocodile while hoping that he eats you last, is a fools errand.

 

[Trailrider #896]

What is really concerning is Putin raising the alert level of his nuclear forces!.  If he is really off the rails, and thinks he can divert attention from Ukraine by threatening (or worse) the Baltic states with tactical nukes, we could be on the brink of WWIII!   I hope some of his "inner circle" can get up the courage to remove him from power!  They have much to lose if he goes nuclear.  So do we!

[Utah Bob #35998]

5 hours ago, Chantry said:

Chamberlain didn't have much of a choice, the British & French militaries were in no shape for war

The French were in pretty good shape…..to fight WW1 over again. But Germany decided to use modern tactics. Oops.

The French actually had invested a lot in tank development over the years and had superior armor at the start of the war. But they were wasted by incompetent command.

[Utah Bob #35998]

15 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

Our Prime Minister has just announced that Australia will be sending 'lethal aid' to Ukraine.

Including Fosters? 

[Sedalia Dave]

53 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Including Fosters? 

 

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Including Fosters? 

 

   Only need to send Fosters ........... 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

9 minutes ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

 

   Only need to send Fosters ........... 

You want to kill Ukrainians?  Or is the idea to booby trap them in put them in the path of thee Russkiys?

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

 

 

 .......... shhhhhhh! .....(they ARE the booby trap) .....   

[Buckshot Bear]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Including Fosters? 

 

Each with a shot of Vodka

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

9 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said:

 

Each with a shot of Vodka

Ммммм, водка!

 

in Ukraine, gorilka, горілка

[Trailrider #896]

Remember the Alamo! Remember Snake Island!