45 Colt with APP Black

[Skullbone Willie]

Need some help here, I’ve ordered a case of APP fff with 200gr bullets from Scarlet Darling and need some load info. The only load posted is 22gr under a cast 200gr bullet. Not really wanting to load that much powder, I know it must be a compressed load. Can I go 10gr with a filler on top to make it compress ? One of the guys suggested cream of wheat on top. I know this isn’t the Holy Black but if I love this I’m sure the Holy Black will come soon enough.  
Thanks, Skullbone Willie  #111686

[Not Dead Ed]

There was a great article from George Baylor in the Cowboy Chronicle on loading BP  and subs.   I’d start there.  
I use backer rod to fill the space in 38 special. Although with APP, I didn’t see any difference with or without the backer rod…. 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Not .45's I know, but we load the same amount in both our .38s and our .357 cases, it's a 130gr bullet.  It's 1.46cc of 3F powder, which gives us about a 3/16" of compression (give or take) in the .38 and we add 0.3cc of grits to the top of the .357 cases to get about the same compression.  No issues what so ever.

 

I personally think that less than 1/2 the full charge might be a little on the light side, even with a filler. 

 

Hopefully, one of the .45 guys will respond...

 

 

[La Sombra]

@Tequila Shooterthis is in your bailiwick!

 

He shoots 45 Colt with APP.

 

La Sombra

[Not Dead Ed]

By the way did you ask @Scarlett if she had a good 45 colt APP load?  

[C.N. Double]

The excellent guide from Capt Baylor has just what you need: http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

Be sure to read all 3 pages of the guide.

[Tequila Shooter]

@Skullbone Willie, I shoot .45c with a 200gr bullet and APP every weekend.  Do not compress APP, it’s not real BP!  If you read the container it will say so.  Your bullet should be seated on the top groove, so get an empty case lay it on its side and place the bullet next to it, now you can see how far up the powder can go, this would be a full warthog load .  You can safely load less, but if you’re going to load less than half the amount of powder needed for a full load you can use a small piece of backer rod.  I typically put a full load in and I haven’t found the recoil to be bad even in pistols.   You can go with less powder it won’t hurt anything just make sure that you have a good crimp. 

[McCandless]

1 hour ago, Skullbone Willie said:

Need some help here, I’ve ordered a case of APP fff with 200gr bullets from Scarlet Darling and need some load info. The only load posted is 22gr under a cast 200gr bullet. Not really wanting to load that much powder, I know it must be a compressed load. Can I go 10gr with a filler on top to make it compress ? One of the guys suggested cream of wheat on top. I know this isn’t the Holy Black but if I love this I’m sure the Holy Black will come soon enough.  
Thanks, Skullbone Willie  #111686

 

22gr of 3F APP in a full size 45 Colt Case + filler and a 200gr bullet (no compression) is a nice mild load.

if you want to go less, you can.  But your groups will open up and your muzzle velocity will be erratic.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Do you want to shoot in a frontier cartridge category. I know I APP is smoky but will 10 gr meet the smoke standard. How many grains of APP to touch the base of a seated bullet with no compression? 

[Skullbone Willie]

2 hours ago, C.N. Double said:

The excellent guide from Capt Baylor has just what you need: http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

Be sure to read all 3 pages of the guide.

This is EXACTLY what I needed, Thanks 

[Skullbone Willie]

2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

@Skullbone Willie, I shoot .45c with a 200gr bullet and APP every weekend.  Do not compress APP, it’s not real BP!  If you read the container it will say so.  Your bullet should be seated on the top groove, so get an empty case lay it on its side and place the bullet next to it, now you can see how far up the powder can go, this would be a full warthog load .  You can safely load less, but if you’re going to load less than half the amount of powder needed for a full load you can use a small piece of backer rod.  I typically put a full load in and I haven’t found the recoil to be bad even in pistols.   You can go with less powder it won’t hurt anything just make sure that you have a good crimp. 

Thanks 

[Skullbone Willie]

2 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

22gr of 3F APP in a full size 45 Colt Case + filler and a 200gr bullet (no compression) is a nice mild load.

if you want to go less, you can.  But your groups will open up and your muzzle velocity will be erratic.

Ok, I’ll load up 50 full loads and go from there. I just wanna put a lotta smoke and lead in the air.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

What mccaandless said! I've been shooting that load with  cream of wheat filler for 10+ years.  Even won a few state titles with that load. 

Rafe 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

You can seat the bullet deep and crimp over the ogive, which will leave less room for powder.

[Cemetery]

2 hours ago, Skullbone Willie said:

Ok, I’ll load up 50 full loads and go from there. I just wanna put a lotta smoke and lead in the air.

 

45 Colt with a full load of APP will be a good amount of smoke.  Pretty sure you'll make smoke factor with some left over for the next few shooters.

 

For a mild load, I went with 45 Cowboy Special.  I get like 15ish grains of APP and a 230g Lead Round Nose, think 45 ACP boolit, and that gets the job done.  No fussin' with fillers.

[Palo Alto Kid]

A great place to find accurate information is right from the source… this is the cartridge guidance taken directly from American Pioneer Powder website: 

 

Cartridge Performance

 

General loading instructions are to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16", when it is seated. NO FURTHER COMPRESSION is recommended or advisable and will result in increase pressures and erratic velocities! It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated, and the use of fillers is not recommended for general cartridge shooting, but is often required and acceptable for achieving the lower velocities desired in Cowboy Action Shooting. The filler should be composed of an acceptable material as recommended by the Single Action Shooting Society. No grease cookie or lube wad is needed, and the use of one will lower the performance. Regular bullet lube is fine - no special bullet lube is required. A good consistent crimp will help give consistent results.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

There are some answers out there that have no basis in fact.  Number Uno is DO NOT COMPRESS APP.  It will give wonky pressures when compressed.  Load to the base the bullet, CRIMP the bullet firmly.  There is no need to load "long."  Crip in the established crimp groove.

 

15Gr of 3f APP will give you all the smoke you need.  At a reduced load, I suggest using Cream-0-Wheat as a filler to the bullet base.  I suggest Cream-0-Wheat as it does NOT compress.  At 10Gr of APP there will be an awful lot of unused case volume to fill and you may well be loading more filler than powder.  At 10Gr APP in a 45 Colt case, you're gonna get some wonky pressures.  I consider 14Gr 3f to be the practical "Bottom."

 

If you wish to shoot at or a tiny tad below 15Gr 3f, I would strongly suggest Cowboy 45 Special cases and eliminate the excess case volume.  A switch to 45 Schofield will also work very well.

 

Recoil is a product of simple Physics.  Recoil is a direct result of the weight of the projectile.  If you wish to really reduce recoil, drop to a 160Gr RNFP or even neater and sweeter, the 130Gr Barnstormer.

 

There is NO SUCH THING as APP BLACK.  APP is a Black Powder SUBSTITUTE.  It also makes LOTS of smoke.

[Burn Through]

Capt Balor did a great study thank you so much and I hope a lot read it . There  is a lot of smoke and boom in F C

[Palo Alto Kid]

I enjoy shooting APP.  Brett, the proprietor, is a super nice guy and fun to chat with.  I shoot full cases; as well as, with fillers such as backer rod and cream-o-wheat. 

 

The APP website is well laid out and the instructions and guidance  are quite clear.  If given the choice,  between following the manufacture's recommended guidance and internet expert advice, I'd defer to the manufacturer.  

 

Front and center on the bottle in all capital letters, APP tells you to "USE NO LUBES and SEAT POWDER FIRMLY."   Within the website cartridge instructions,  APP reminds loaders, "It is important that no air space or gap be left when the bullet is seated..." APP further instructs, "to fill the case with our loose powder just to the point where the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder,  about 1/16" when it is seated. 

 

With a muzzleloader, we can tell by feel when the projectile is firmly seated on the powder, something we can't do when using the mechanical advantage of a reloading machine.  

 

The inference that I draw from this is APP recommends 1/16" compression is to ensure that no airspace or gap is left behind when the bullet is seated.   Better to err on the side of caution rather than depend on 100% precision seating a bullet precisely 'touching' the powder 100% of the time. 

 

APP does warn against over compressing the loads and therefore I will not do so.  However,  when I look at APP FFg, a mix of rocks and boulders is what comes to mind.  You could compress it twice  the recommendation and you won't turn it into FFFg.   

 

My concern when I began to experiment with foam backer-rod was that I wasn't going to get the compression called for by the APP guidance... The rod did fill up the excess case volume and thus take up all the airspace, but when I pulled the bullet, and fished the foam out, the powder just poured on out in identical state it went in.   Never the less, It performed just fine, providing better than one-minute of cowboy.  However, I still got a cleaner burn and more consistency with full cases and slight compression- nice smoke and significantly fewer 'meteorites' flying down range!  I saw much tighter groups on paper too, but who really cares about that...  

 

In the end, with regard to both performance and safety, rule number uno should be No Airspace or Gap and if that means a slight 1/16" compression as APP directs to ensure it, err on the side of caution. 

 

 

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I acquired a .44-40 rifle about a year ago and worked up a load with APP starting with the charge recommended on their website.  The velocity was less consistent than I wanted.

 

Captain George Baylor recommended a reduced charge with caulk backer rod as a filler.  I use a good bit less powder but the ammo is more consistent and the velocity difference is surprisingly small.

 

One thing about APP, it makes plenty of smoke!

[Jack Rojas]

Pard,

22 gr of BP will not fill your LC case. You will still need a filler on top. I shoot a pair of ‘51s in 44 cal & the powder horn throws a 22 gr charge for those open tops. When I started loading my 45 LC I just used the same. Works great with not much more than recoil of a 38. 
remember that BO burns different, produces a different report & a milder recoil than smokeyless powder.

goid luck & have fun, Dammit!

JUD

[Scarlett]

On 2/24/2022 at 12:07 PM, Not Dead Ed said:

By the way did you ask @Scarlett if she had a good 45 colt APP load?  

I don’t shoot 45 Colt. @Tequila Shooter is definitely who I would ask about it! 

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Diamond Jake]

I shoot 45 Colt in my rifle and 45 Schofield in my revolvers.  The rile recoil isn't an issue, so I load enough powder to just barely get compressed under the bullet. If I want less recoil or smoke, I can load 1.9cc APP and .5cc Cornmeal filler. In the Schofields I use 1.3cc APP and .5CC cornmeal filler.  200 gr bullets.

 

I reference cc instead of grains because the Lee Powder scoops dipped from an open bowl of powder is much easier and faster than pouring into a traditional powder measure.  (I use a single stage press.)

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

You are not supposed to compress APP.

[Diamond Jake]

17 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

You are not supposed to compress APP.

 

Correct.  To clarify my post above, when I said "...to just barely get compressed..." I meant so it just touches or very slightly compresses.  I think air space is more dangerous, so I'd rather have 1/16" compression than air space.  And the APP website does recommend 1/16" compression in cartridges.