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Property question


Trigger Mike

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Let's say you buy an atv for your minor child but since they are a minor the bill of sale has your name.  Your child uses it most of the time but you also use it once in a while as needed for chores etc.  

 

When the child reaches 18 and leaves home before finishing high school in the middle of the night,  whose atv is it?  

 

It seems my little girl has run out of money at 4 weeks out on her own and wants me to buy her atv from her.  I'm trying to decide the legal answer before deciding the moral answer.   

 

She also asked for a Russian nagant revolver I bought when she was an infant to teach her gun safety with and she asked me to buy it from her too, but I told her she had already told me she didn't want it a few months ago and wasn't legal to own it yet so I donated it to the school for a fundraiser.   

 

She also asked for the ruger 22 rifle she got for Christmas long ago but she had to spend time in the hospital for self inflicted injury a few years back and reminded her of that.

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In Illinois, most stuff has a title and the owner is the name on the title. I think in states that don;t use a title, the name on the bill of sale is the owner. My former girlfriend had a car in Indiana and the bill of sale was in her name, but the title and plates were in her ex-boyfriend's mother's name. When we took it to the salvage yard and sold it, we gave them a copy of the  original bill of sale showing the she bought it and they were able to get a title from the state and purchased it.

 

I think it depends on the state, however, If you have it and the bill of sale, I would suspect you are the owner.

 

Sounds like a rough road that you are traveling, good luck.

 

FYI, my son asked if he could take his guns to his house the other day, and I told him no. He does have a Foid and has shot some, but he lives outside Chicago and just rented an apartment with his girlfriend, but her and also his mom do not have Foid cards. Since he would most likely only shoot at my place or with me, I told him they should stay here in the safe. He will be 21 in July and kinda decided  I might be right.

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thank you to all.  I have been stalling giving her an answer by having her research herself how much her honda 420 is worth.  She first came back with several listings from dealerships as she forgot the year and model etc.  I sent he to the ate trader page.  this way it gives me time to decide what I will do about it and also gives her an excuse to talk to me.  I still view her as my little girl, purple hair and nose ring and vaping are things the stranger is doing.  Being financially foolish is not how I raised her.  I keep hoping she will get humble soon.  

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I presume that she left it in your care when she ran off a month ago. I wouldn't "Buy" it from her, since, among other things, you paid for it in the first place. You know full well that if you were to give her any money, she's going to continue her current (mis)behaviour, and continue to expect that she can get you to finance it. Unfortunately, you're going to have to let her hit bottom on her own before she decides to start climbing back up, and she's going to have to do that on her own, too.

Again, unfortunately, she's going to "hate" you for it, for now. Most likely, she will eventually figure out that you were right to do so. Good luck.

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IT IS YOURS , you bought it , its in your name , if you wish to honor it as a gift is still up to you , but as you proposed it id demand a tittle transfer first , 

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Been looking for another Honda. If you were closer, we could have worked out a lesson teaching arrangement. 

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Having been a first hand witness time and time again  to grandparents, aunts and uncles being enablers to other family members self destructive habits, I would say exercise caution not become an enabler.

This is my not so humble opinion.
What is now unfolding is a game of entitlement, the whole “that’s my stuff” drama. It needs to be fully settled asap, and all at once.
I think I would do this: tell the her to come over, take what is hers out of the home and she can dispose of it at her will. The Nagant is gone she isnt old enough and responsible enough to assume ownership so that’s her tough luck. Offer her $75 for the .22 or whatever its worth to you. You can give it to grandkids later, but make it a take it now or forfeit it proposition.
 

When our son left at 17, his crap lingered around and was nothing more than an encumbrance for 6/7 months. Then he would pop in now and again like I was running a free self storage unit.

The best wake up call to independence is all the responsibility that comes with it. I suggest, that is the best gift to give. If there is the slightest inkling of ownership on her part to anything, let her assume full ownership, if legally and responsibly sound. But I would not hold onto a material good to prove a point just to prove a wedge later. But I would not act as a pawn broker or sell things for her on consignment either. Just a courteous as possible “come get your stuff” and “make your own way.”

2 years after our son leaving, he is doing well and at 19 qualified for $200,000 fha loan and buying a house. He works for me and I exploit his hard work to the fullest of my advantage, but in 15 years he will know his trade and have a chance to at least buy part of my business and make $200,000 or more a year. Along the way, I have had to help him a time or two on vehicle repairs, which if he was not working ( tile work at the time), I would have told him tough s***, ask his real dad or figure some other solution.

People are either going to make it on their own, or they won’t. Don’t get in the way of them sorting that out on their own. It retards personal development and adds an unnecessary burden.

 

 

 

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I was on my own at AIT  Ft Sam Hilton. Dad didn't agree with me enlisting.

 

Dad got transferred for work. Mail call and I got a letter with a key in it. Letter said ' got transferred, your stuff is in a storage locker at x street and y street. We paid the first 3 months after that it's up to you.'  

 

Mike this is a tough spot. Your daughter made the decision to be independent, we also raise our kids show them the way but eventually we have to let them make their own mistakes.

 

Lot of good advice on this thread. If it wasn't your daughter how would you react to someone saying they own a bike you loaned them when your name is on the title?

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Since she has a history of "self inflicted injury"  I would NOT let her have a gun and tell her that is the reason.

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Tell her she declared herself "independent". If she wants to buy the 4 wheeler you paid for, you will happily sell it to her for cash, but that is your property. She decided to go it on her own, tell her to quit vaping, put that money towards her bills, and learn how to live on a budget like you and your wife did.

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It depends.  If she has been told it is hers, repeatedly over the years, then you've made a promise to her

even though at the time it was you who had the only authority to actually purchase it.  If she then rode it

most of the time she probably believed that it was hers given what you told her.  I suspect that when

she left abruptly she also left behind some clothes, or other items that also belong to her, even if you bought

them while she was growing up. 

 

If she now wants to sell it I'd say let her.  You made a gift of it, and then she decided that she wants to

do something with her gift that you or I might not agree with, but once you give a gift you release ownership.

 

W/R/T the revolver, she released ownership and it's disposed of, so it's moot.  As for the rifle, whether it's

hers or not she has behaved in ways that preclude her having a firearm, at least for now.  Perhaps someday

she will mature enough to regain your trust, but not yet.

 

Just my $0.02 worth

 

SC

 

 

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I thought of the storage unit idea but my lawyer said she could charge me with theft,, I intend to get a second opinion as I was going to give her the key.  

 

There is no way I am going to give her a gun and am selling other guns that I had planned to sell when I am old or to keep for my sons.  I'm going to whittle down to a lot less.  I likely will hold onto the 22 for a while and decide later as it was a Christmas gift.   She once told me when I die the only gun she wanted was my purple glock 43 in 380 that I had bought to encourage her to like shooting.  I have since donated it to the school and am having it cerakoted the school colors for their spring auction.  

 

I will consider each reply before deciding what to do with the atv.  

 

At this point I have yet to find a single family member who wants her to come home.   She'd have to make drastic changes.  Even her little sister ran from her last time she was here.  Purple hair and a nose ring don't match with a sound mind.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

It depends.  If she has been told it is hers, repeatedly over the years, then you've made a promise to her

even though at the time it was you who had the only authority to actually purchase it.  If she then rode it

most of the time she probably believed that it was hers given what you told her.  I suspect that when

she left abruptly she also left behind some clothes, or other items that also belong to her, even if you bought

them while she was growing up. 

 

If she now wants to sell it I'd say let her.  You made a gift of it, and then she decided that she wants to

do something with her gift that you or I might not agree with, but once you give a gift you release ownership.

 

W/R/T the revolver, she released ownership and it's disposed of, so it's moot.  As for the rifle, whether it's

hers or not she has behaved in ways that preclude her having a firearm, at least for now.  Perhaps someday

she will mature enough to regain your trust, but not yet.

 

Just my $0.02 worth

 

SC

 

 

+1 to this. A gift is a gift. Sell it and give her the money. Same with the firearm, sell it and give her the money.

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If it was a gift to her, it's hers. I don't think the paper matters much. If it was recognized as yours but she got to use it, then its yours.

I got to use one of my folks' old cars most of the time I wanted, but it was theirs. The bike they gave me for a birthday was mine.

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18 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

If it was a gift to her, it's hers. I don't think the paper matters much. If it was recognized as yours but she got to use it, then its yours.

I got to use one of my folks' old cars most of the time I wanted, but it was theirs. The bike they gave me for a birthday was mine.

If a kid moves out, and leaves a lot of stuff behind, how does that work?  When I did it, after a certain time, it was donated or gotten rid of.  No hard feelings, I could have taken it any time.  My kids moved out under good circumstances also, graduated from college, having gotten good jobs.  I still have a lot of their stuff,  came with us when we moved ant takes up a good bit of space in the storage room.  I've even threatened to ship it to them, the thought of that horrifies them.  Gradually donating some, tossing some and keeping some.  

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Any stuff my kids leave here when they move out I will consider abandoned.  I've told them as much.  It'll either get sold or donated.  They will not see any of the proceeds (or tax benefits) of either.

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We raised 5 kids and I remember no problems as they moved out. All graduated from college and the usual scenario is that as the college years passed they were here less and less and took any of their stuff of any real value along the way. 

 

We never worried about getting rid of their stuff as soon as they went off to school. It all just took care of itself.

 

On the other hand, there were no ATVs and such. Just bikes and miscellany. Cars they bought on their own.

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1 hour ago, Rip Snorter said:

If a kid moves out, and leaves a lot of stuff behind, how does that work? 

 

1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

We raised 5 kids and I remember no problems as they moved out.

There's a significant difference between "moving out", and "running off in the middle of the night". This girl did the latter.

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There are good arguments for either decision you will make. You have heard from a lot of friends here. Do what will let you feel right with your conscience and for peace in your own heart and with the rest of your family. Know that our prayers and best wishes are with you.

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3 hours ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

Making a decision based on anger is usually not a good decision in the long run.

I agree.  I think until I talk to a lawyer I will hold it and not sell it to someone else like my wife wants me to do, and not give her the money like my daughter wants me to do.  My hope is her head will snap back into place and she will become humble and correct some things and then she can ride it to help clear her head, which is what I bought it for to begin with.  From what I gather she has cried each time I went to her job to talk to her, the first time was to ask her what she wanted to do with the clothes she left behind and to get back in school and options to do that, either, I will give her a ride to where I had enrolled her, or I sent school records to where she wants to go or the online adult diploma program.  the second time was 2 weeks later to tell her I need her tax forms .  I gather she cried as she had bowed her head and after I left a male coworker that is protective of her, came out looking for me.  If she is crying each time I see her and each time I stand well off from her and in a business like tone tell her what her message is and she has a hard time looking at me, then perhaps she may be second guessing her bad decisions.  That or she had expected us to beg her to come home and we will let her live and do like she wants, and we have not done that.  We have 3 other children to consider who are watching to see how we react to her.  If we allow her to get away with bad behavior, there is no way we will be able to run a decent household.  

 

 

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You could always donate it to a local charity and give her the tax write off.  Frankly, I'd be tempted to go that route.  It won't help her out financially,. but may give her some motivation to clean up as she inadvertently helped out a charity.

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21 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

It depends.  If she has been told it is hers, repeatedly over the years, then you've made a promise to her

even though at the time it was you who had the only authority to actually purchase it.  If she then rode it

most of the time she probably believed that it was hers given what you told her.  I suspect that when

she left abruptly she also left behind some clothes, or other items that also belong to her, even if you bought

them while she was growing up. 

 

If she now wants to sell it I'd say let her.  You made a gift of it, and then she decided that she wants to

do something with her gift that you or I might not agree with, but once you give a gift you release ownership.

 

W/R/T the revolver, she released ownership and it's disposed of, so it's moot.  As for the rifle, whether it's

hers or not she has behaved in ways that preclude her having a firearm, at least for now.  Perhaps someday

she will mature enough to regain your trust, but not yet.

 

Just my $0.02 worth

 

SC

 

 

 

This is the approach I most agree with. The ATV is yours on paper, but if you told her it was a gift, she’s not wrong to take you at your word on that. So I wouldn’t retain possession of it. That said, you’re under no obligation to buy it from her either. If she wants to sell it, you could tell her you’re not going to store it for free, and that she needs to come pick it up, then sell it herself. If she left behind clothes or other minor stuff that could be considered hers, you could box that up and have her take that at the same time to make it clear you’re not going to be her storage unit. 

 

The rifle is another story, despite also being a gift. I wouldn’t give a rifle to someone with a history of self harm. 

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I was sitting in my parking spot texting someone and looked up and saw him come out and starring at me like he was somebody and he kept starring at me as I drove to turn by where he was standing,  but he never said anything to me.  He was a heavy set kid so I wasn't worried about him.  He finally went back inside after I drove down the next aisle to go to chik fil a at the end of the row.  He never came up to me while I was there.   

 

I've noticed him stay past his shift to make sure the girls leaving were not harmed after closing once when I came to pick my daughter up after work the week before she left.  He seems protective .  

 

I might see if I can use him to bring my daughter around.  

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5 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

I was sitting in my parking spot texting someone and looked up and saw him come out and starring at me like he was somebody and he kept starring at me as I drove to turn by where he was standing,  but he never said anything to me.  He was a heavy set kid so I wasn't worried about him.  He finally went back inside after I drove down the next aisle to go to chik fil a at the end of the row.  He never came up to me while I was there.   

 

I've noticed him stay past his shift to make sure the girls leaving were not harmed after closing once when I came to pick my daughter up after work the week before she left.  He seems protective .  

 

I might see if I can use him to bring my daughter around.  

IMO don't think you can bring them around.  You just have to stay cool and give a little help where you can.  They will or won't come around in their own time.

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28 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

I've noticed him stay past his shift to make sure the girls leaving were not harmed after closing once when I came to pick my daughter up after work the week before she left.  He seems protective .  

I might see if I can use him to bring my daughter around.  

He might be just the guy to make it happen. On the surface, he sounds he might like a good guy. 

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If your child "ran" away in the middle of the night...

If your child is so disturbed by your presence that she cries when you're around...

If your parenting style is one of "business like" tones, not understanding the idea of what a gift is, consulting lawyers and airing your family laundry in front of strangers...

 

Perhaps your search for answers should include a long look in the mirror?

 

A nose ring and purple hair is not a mental disorder - it's called youth.

Self harm is caused by emotional or physical triggers that can come from a variety of sources; home, school, peers.

And is generally a manifestation of feeling helpless or hopeless - the ability to harm themselves is a "proof" that they still have dominion over something.

It will not be "cured" by tough love or making them feel more helpless and alone.

 

And the heavy set young man that is "protective"?  You should get down on your knees and thank God that she has someone who cares about her.

"Use him" to turn her?

Right or wrong; right now, you are the enemy (he wouldn't be staring you down if he had good thoughts about you).

 

Every child is different and every child will have different needs; right now - your daughter needs more from you.

 

Until she believes you are on her team - you face a very uphill battle.

 

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As a parent and as someone who's dealt with legal matters (profession)...

 

She has a good case on the items in small claims court. By stating these were gifts, you basically gave up ownership to them even if you still have them. If she can prove that they were for her, a judge would probably rule in her favor. This would come in the form of emails, texts, etc which you might have inadvertently did with your communication back and forth. The firearm, you might be able to prove she abandoned and didn't want. Depends on the context and wording of your conversations.

 

That said, the parent in me would say either:

 

"You're on your own. I will help you how I can but you need to figure it out like I did at 18 when I left for the military"

 

Or...

 

"Being that you're my child, you're forever my responsibility so I'll buy those two items from you"

 

Which answer I gave would depend on the day (regardless of what's legally binding or not). I'd love for my kids to know they can come to me for help. But they need to figure out how life works. My son is 16 and knows he's leaving home at 18. No ifs ands or buts. I did it, my wife did it, so can he. I won't have some slacker who is 32 and living in our basement. No offense to any on these forums. But seriously, it's time you move out.

 

I would find a way to compromise while still being strict and teaching a life lesson. Your kid will always come back to you and beg if you allow it. 

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