44 caliber bullets.

[Miles]

While trying to find the caliber of my 1863 Army I've run into a lot of different information about bullets.  I Looked at the Wikipedia site for 44 Colt,  they say the bullet diameter is 0.451",  then I look on Wikipedia under 44 calibers, there they have the diameter of the 44 Colt as 0.443".  Can someone here please tell me what the diameter of a 44 colt bullet is?

Thank you.

[Rip Snorter]

You need a proper loading manual. I would not trust anything else.

[Miles]

Mine has the 44 rem mag, 44 S&W spl. 44 Russian and 44wcf.  That's it.

[Crisco]

Current loading manuals are not of much use for the old cartridges.

 

I believe the original .44 Colt was for the Colt Army revolvers based on the 1860 configuration, so had a very small rim and a heeled bullet that I see listed as .430" heel, .451 full diameter.  That makes sense as the bore diameter was quite a bit more than .44 in the cap and ball guns.  In that vein, we convert the modern black powder revolvers directly to .45 Colt, but only as 5 shooters or with precisely offset bored chambers to make 6 rims fit.

 

There is ammo out there now days that is called .44 Colt, but it uses an inside lubed bullet of smaller diameter ( ~.430") and a larger rim than original (doubt 6 would fit in a straight bored cylinder), and I expect dimensions found in most references could easily be a mix of old and new.

 

Just to further the confusion:

Cartridges of the world shows .44 Colt bullet diameter at .443"

Phil Sharpe's handloading manual from 1937 says .448"

Neither even mentions the .44 Remington, which might be what started you down this path.

[Bull Skinner]

Hodgdon’s on line load data lists 44 colt bullet as .430. That is for current manufactured guns. If your 1863 is an original it’s bore is .451. Modern 44 colt is just a short 44 special/long 44 Russian. A 44 special chambered firearm will chamber all three rounds. A converted cap and ball pistol cylinder will be chambered for 45 colt or 45 schofield. If a new repro conversion it is chambered for .430 diameter 44 colt. Best way to find out is slug your pistols barrel.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Miles said:

While trying to find the caliber of my 1863 Army I've run into a lot of different information about bullets.  I Looked at the Wikipedia site for 44 Colt,  they say the bullet diameter is 0.451",  then I look on Wikipedia under 44 calibers, there they have the diameter of the 44 Colt as 0.443".  Can someone here please tell me what the diameter of a 44 colt bullet is?

Thank you.

 

Is this a reproduction or an original 63 conversion??? 

 

BTW Wikipedia is not the best source of information.

["Big Boston"]

The old cap and ball 44s were named 44, because that was the bore size. The grooves were deep and the groove diameter was 451, thereabouts. The heeled bullet in the 44 Colt was as stated above, 430 on the heel, 451 thereabouts on the body. When the Russians wanted a non heeled bullet, one with all the shank in the case, the barrel was reduced in size to accommodate the change. The new cartridge was still named a 44 (Russian). 

 

At least that's how I think it all came about, back in the day in the 1800s.

 

To correctly reference a barrel, the groove diameter, bore diameter, twist rate, number of grooves and width of lands need to be listed. Also included in the specs is the bore and groove area.

 

BB

[Sedalia Dave]

34 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

To correctly reference a barrel, the groove diameter, bore diameter, twist rate, number of grooves and width of lands need to be listed. Also included in the specs is the bore and groove area.

 

^^^^THIS^^^^

 

To get the answers you seek, you need to help us help you.  First you need to slug the bore. This is the ONLY way to reveal the true bullet diameter,

 

Next you need to make a chamber cast of the one of the cylinder chambers and carefully take measurements this is the ONLY way to figure out what cartridge it was converted to.

 

Once you have both of the above, THEN and ONLY THEN can you start your research as to what revolver you have and what cartridge it was converted to.

 

It is entirely possible that you have a franken-gun that someone has made up of parts that do not belong together.

 

BTW Post civil war cartridge conversion revolvers were converted to several different cartridges. Most of which no longer exist today.

 

Hate to tell you this, but the simple answer you want is not possible and continuing to ask the members here questions without providing all the facts is only going to lead you down the primrose path to frustration.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for Sedalia Dave.  

 

A WAG (Wild Ass'd Guess) is NOT an answer.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

First you need to explain what you are asking about.  There is no such thing as an 1863 Colt.  Are you talking about an actual .44 Colt or the modern version?  The .44 Colt used a heeled bullet.  The modern version in the reproductions is not actually a .44 Colt.  It uses an inside lubed bullet that is smaller in diameter than an original.  If you are using Wikipedia for loading data you are in deep trouble.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Miles said:

Mine has the 44 rem mag, 44 S&W spl. 44 Russian and 44wcf.  That's it.

 

If that is an actual civil war cartridge conversion gun the ONLY again ONLY safe loads are Black Powder.

 

DO NOT use BP subs in it. period. REAL BP only.

[Miles]

Thanks guys, the gun is a Remington.  I thought, like most other people it seems, an 1858 but have learned on this site there is no such model, and it's been suggested mine is a model 1863 army or new model army.  It's a converted 44 caliber.  I don't know for sure but it looks like the original cylinder was cut and a section removed to be replaced with a section that was bored through turning the cylinder into a cartridge cylinder.  It's still a 6 bore cylinder.  I've already asked about what cartridge this gun may be chambered for in another post.  But while searching for a possible cartridge that would match the specs of this gun, I thought perhaps it is a 44 Colt.  But I've seen three different specs listed for the 44 Colt, so I was just asking in this post "what the heck are the specs of a 44 Colt cartridge?"  One place I get one spec, somewhere else I get another.  Can't be both.  Seems most of the replica firearms I've speced  called a 44 colt, have a bullet diameter of 0.429". 

Sorry about not giving much info about my firearm, but I wasn't asking in this post what cartridge my gun specs to,  but just what is a colt 44's specs. The cartridge not the gun.  I thought perhaps The gun was made to use a 44 Remington, but there's even less info on those that the Colt.

 

 

I haven't done a chamber casting on my Remington, but I have picked up some of the Brownells casting metal to do just that.  I did slug the barrel and slug a chamber in the cylinder.  They are both 0.451".

 

Now that I'm asking about the 44 anyway, is someone selling the heeled bullets commercially?  Is there still molds for the heeled bullets available?

 

Thank you.

[Sedalia Dave]

Accurate molds sells heeled bullet moulds. However you will need the proper crimp tool for heeled bullets. I have no idea where you will find such a tool.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

As has been stated, the 44 Colt cartridge ( as opposed to the 45 Colt cartridge) was developed for revolvers that had been converted from Cap & Ball to firing cartridges. The first of these was the Richards Conversion. (Not the Richards Mason conversion, that one came a little bit later and was a modification of the original Richards Conversion) Off the top of my head, without looking in one of my reference books, I seem to recall the Richards Conversion came out around 1872. The Rollin White patent for revolvers with bored through cylinders for cartridges had expired in 1869. This was the patent that Smith and Wesson had exclusive rights to, and was the reason Colt could not manufacture a cartridge revolver until the patent expired.

 

 

 

 

 

The Richards Conversion had a cylinder that had been re-manufactured from the 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolver. The chambers were bored through all the way, the same diameter as the original chamber mouths. The rear of the cylinders, where the nipples had been, was cut off. A breech plate was screwed to the frame to take up the space where the nipples had been. On the left in this photo is the cylinder from a modern replica 1860 Army Colt, on the right is the Richards Conversion cylinder.

 

 

 

 

 

This view shows the two cylinders, with a couple of original 44 Colt cartridges in the conversion cylinder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo shows the breech plate screwed to the frame.

 

 

 

 

 

The design was very advanced for its day, the breech plate had a spring loaded firing pin mounted to it, and a loading gate for loading cartridges. There was a small rear sight that was integral with the breech plate.

 

 

 

 

 

Here are four actual 44 Colt cartridges from my cartridge collection. The bullets were .451 in diameter, the same diameter as bullets for the later 45 Colt cartridge. The difference was, the 44 Colt used a heeled bullet, meaning the rear of the bullet that was inserted into the cartridge case was the same diameter as the inside of the cartridge. Just like modern 22 Rimfire ammunition.

 

 

 

 

 

These are some heeled bullets I cast for my Richards Conversion, using modern Starline 44 Colt brass.

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy Again

 

The Remington 1858 revolver is a bit of a misnomer. The patent dates were 1858, but actual production did not start until about 1861.

 

Here is my old EuroArms 1858 Remmie with its R&D 45 Colt conversion cylinder. It turns out the groove diameter, which is what is most important, was close enough to .451 that 45 Colt cartridges, with .451 diameter bullets could be fired through it. I measured the groove diameter of my old Remmie (I bought it brand-spanky new in 1975). It is a little bit tight, more like .449, but it works fine with my Black Powder loaded 45 Colt cartridges. As I said earlier, the 44 Colt used a heeled bullet with the heel the same diameter as the inside of the case but the outside diameter of the bullet is the same as the outside diameter of the case. 45 Colt uses a bullet of constant diameter that slips inside the case.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the six chamber 45 Colt R&D cylinder I use in my old Remmie. Note: somebody was selling a six chamber 44 Colt cylinder. The chambers are too narrow for 45 Colt, they are sized for 44 Special ammunition. The chambers of that cylinder will not accept a 45 Colt cartridge. I can fire mild 45 Colt Smokeless ammo in my old Remmie if I want, but I only shoot it with cartridges loaded with Black Powder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As was stated, the 44 Russian cartridge was the first cartridge to move away from heeled bullets. Bullet diameter was about .429 or .430, the same as the later 44 Special and 44 Magnum cartridges.

 

 

I bought the mold for my heeled bullets for my Colt Richards Conversion from Old West Bullet Molds, but you do not want heeled bullets for your Remington. If your chamber slugs out at .451, you want .452 bullets, which are commercially available.

[Miles]

Thanks again.

 

Great pics and nice looking guns.

 

I've looked all over the web and can't find anyone who makes those cylinders for an original 1863 date of manufacture Remington-made revolver.  They all say they are made for the aftermarket made guns.  Does anyone make them for the original Remingtons?  A new and hopefully stronger cylinder wouldn't be a bad thing if I am to shoot this 159 year old gun.

 

As far as non heeled bullets, the chamber would have to accept the case sized for accepting the non heeled 0.451 or 0.452 inch bullet.  I doubt if this chamber would have been reamed out to that size,  but wont know till I cast the chamber.

 

Speaking of which, I'm going to give that a whorl tomorrow.  I've never done it, any tips?

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Follow the directions. Don't get the cerrosafe too hot.

 

If you have one, you can plug the mouth of the cylinder with a over powder or over shot card. Otherwise cover the mouth of the cylinder with a piece of paper that is taped securely in place with electrical tape.

Cerrosafe melts at less than 200 degrees so it will not damage the paper. You can melt it in small metal ladle or large kitchen spoon with a hot air heat gun.  You can even use a small tin can. Just be sure it is clean,  Cut a section of the rim out to make a spout to pour it. Be careful using a propane torch as it is really easy to get cerrosafe too hot.

[Savvy Jack]

WRA era 44 Colt lead cartridges used .4475" diameter bullets.

 

On a side note, there was load data on early 1900 Bullseye cans for a 4gr. charge.

 

I have not dissected one so I can not confirm what the Winchester factory used...although I assume 23gr of black powder.
 

 

 

 

 

 

I would prefer to NOT use smokeless loads in any original

 

Here is a great article on shooting the 44 Colt https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/new-bullet-for-the-44-colt

[Miles]

Howdy,

Well I did four castings, they didn't want to come out, I had to use a tapometer.

The front part of the chambers look fairly smooth but the rear section is pretty rough.  I can see the marks in the chambers just looking in with a penlight.

It is fairly smooth an cylindrical at the front part but then tapers back towards the rear of the chambers.  I had a hard time getting good measurements so these are not the most accurate.  One was so screwed up I didn't bother measuring, some of the casting metal sheared off as I was using brute force to get it out.

 

I measured 1/4" down from the front and then every 1/4" till I got to 1-2/4":

 

1-.4530, 4535, 4540, 4665, 4725, 4750, 4790;

2-.4530, 4535, 4535, 4695, 4740, 4775, 4800;

3-.4535, 4540, 4745, 4705, 4755,4780, 4810.

 

Not sure what to make of this, when I slugged a chamber it was 0.4510".  I'll have to try that again.

 

This old cylinder may be beyond any kind of safe tolerances.

 

 

 

,

[Miles]

Forgot the pics.

I just tapped a slug through the cylinders and it measures 0.451"  They went in easy til about 3/4" from the front where it was tight then lossened up again as it went towards the mouth.

[Savvy Jack]

15 minutes ago, Miles said:

Howdy,

Well I did four castings, they didn't want to come out, I had to use a tapometer.

The front part of the chambers look fairly smooth but the rear section is pretty rough.  I can see the marks in the chambers just looking in with a penlight.

It is fairly smooth an cylindrical at the front part but then tapers back towards the rear of the chambers.  I had a hard time getting good measurements so these are not the most accurate.  One was so screwed up I didn't bother measuring, some of the casting metal sheared off as I was using brute force to get it out.

 

I measured 1/4" down from the front and then every 1/4" till I got to 1-2/4":

 

1-.4530, 4535, 4540, 4665, 4725, 4750, 4790;

2-.4530, 4535, 4535, 4695, 4740, 4775, 4800;

3-.4535, 4540, 4745, 4705, 4755,4780, 4810.

 

Not sure what to make of this, when I slugged a chamber it was 0.4510".  I'll have to try that again.

 

This old cylinder may be beyond any kind of safe tolerances.

 

 

 

,

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

2 hours ago, Miles said:

Forgot the pics.

I just tapped a slug through the cylinders and it measures 0.451"  They went in easy til about 3/4" from the front where it was tight then lossened up again as it went towards the mouth.

 

What is your reference for front and back?

 

[Miles]

I put the slug in from the rear of the cylinder, it fell in a little ways then got tight.  I tapped it and it moved to the front ( muzzle end) of the cylinder but loosened up before the front face of the cylinder.  Like it's an hour glass shape..

[Miles]

Savvy Jack, thanks for posting that pic with the dimensions.  I can see the bullet would be too small for my barrel, which is 0.451"

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You know how to take photos since you have posted one.  What is LACKING is that you have not supplied photos of what you are talking about.  If this is a Remington factory conversion what makes you think it is a .44 Colt?  Most 1858s (and that is what they have commonly been called for decades) were converted to .46 Remington.  You need to post some photos of the gun, the conversion and the hammer.  There were a variety of Remington conversions and calibers.  The type of conversion and caliber often depends on when the conversion was done.  The early ones from the 1860s are different that the later ones from the early 1870s.

[Miles]

Howdy,

Larson E.  I will attach photographs of the gun and the cylinder.  It's a center fire gun so wouldn't be a .46 Remington.

 

I didn't necessarily think it was a 44 Colt, my first thought is it would be a 44 Remington.  From what I've read, it has a rim diameter that would fit this cylinder, anything larger than 0.495 or so will be two wide to fit.  But then I saw it has a 0.447" bullet which would be to small for my barrel.  Right beside a photograph of a .44 Remington was a .44 Colt, it also has a rim  that would fit my cylinder and a .451 bullet.  So I thought maybe this was converted to a 44 Colt.  Then I read where 44 Colt has a bullet of .443, even smaller than the .44 Remington.  So that's why I was asking what the heck is the diameter of a 44 colt.

 

But I just spoke on the phone with a very friendly and helpful guy down in Texas for about 45 minutes.  Gave me a bunch of information and advice on my gun.  He seemed quite sure this is a transitional gun and has an armoury conversion.  I told him about the castings and the measurements, he feels it should take the 44 Colt brass with heeled .451 bullets. I'll have to try and find all the stuff I need to reload for this gun.  I think there are some cowboy action shooters on Vancouver Island, here on the small island of Pender we call it the "Big Island", I'll see if any of them shoot cartridges like the 44 Colt and if so maybe I can get a round to see how it chambers.

 

Thanks.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Super nice.  I wanted pictures so I could look through the McDowell book on conversions and see if there was anything like it in there.  It looks like what McDowell describes as an "Armory Conversion".  He also notes the .44 Colt and .44 Remington were so similar that a lot of ammunition makers simply labeled their boxes .44 Caliber for Colt or Remington.  Don't worry about minor differences in bore diameter and bullet diameter.  These dimensions were all over the place and the bullets were pure lead so they conformed to the bore when fired.  If you can get a few samples I would try the Starline .44 Colt case in the cylinder and if it fits then look for a .44 heeled bullet mold.  Should be fun to shoot.

[Savvy Jack]

I posted this earlier, maybe it got missed.
https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/new-bullet-for-the-44-colt

 

Accurate Molds: https://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=15#catalog-anchor

[Miles]

Larsen E. That confirms what Gary figured.  Type one armoury conversion.

 

Savvy Jack  I saw that post.  Thank you.

Ammo with 44 colt starline brass and .429-.434" bullets are custom loaded and sold over on the mainland.  Mostly to folks who have Italian made reproductions of the army revolvers.  From what I've seen they are made with a .429 bore and there's so many of them, ammo and components abound for those guns, but the original Remington 1858s that were converted to metallic cartridge from percussion in 44 caliber have 0.451" bores and would require larger diameter bullets.

[Savvy Jack]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:35 PM, Miles said:

Larsen E. That confirms what Gary figured.  Type one armoury conversion.

 

Savvy Jack  I saw that post.  Thank you.

Ammo with 44 colt starline brass and .429-.434" bullets are custom loaded and sold over on the mainland.  Mostly to folks who have Italian made reproductions of the army revolvers.  From what I've seen they are made with a .429 bore and there's so many of them, ammo and components abound for those guns, but the original Remington 1858s that were converted to metallic cartridge from percussion in 44 caliber have 0.451" bores and would require larger diameter bullets.

 

Accurate Molds will custom make the mold needed, I had two made

[Marauder SASS #13056]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:39 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

A WAG (Wild Ass'd Guess) is NOT an answer.

Of course it is AN answer.  Likely a wrong one, but. . .

[Miles]

I want to thank you all for your information and suggestions.

 

This is where I sit now.

I had trouble measuring the bore slug as the rifling is 5 right and as such I could not measure land to land and groove to groove.  But with some help from folks in the gunsmith section of a couple forums, I was able to measure with a V block and a dial indicator gauge.  I have a barrel bore with grooves .449" and lands .435".

 

I was contacted by a fellow from Ontario who read my ad inquiring about heeled bullets, and some 1858 parts.

He sent me a hand for the revolver plus a dummy round with a Starline44 Colt case and one of his heeled bullets.  The bullet is .427" diameter at the heel and .449" diameter at the sealing ring.  The hand worked nicely, I now only have a few simpler tasks to make the revolver operational once again.  The dummy round fit nicely into all six chambers.  I installed a primer in the case and shot the bullet into the barrel, stopped about half way,  I tapped it through &out the muzzle.  The lands formed well into the bullet and it looks like the bullet will seal the barrel.  He's selling me fifty of his bullets and I've got some new Starline 44 Colt brass coming in the mail.  I already have the powder so I'm set to proof the gun within a couple weeks.

 

I'll post a pic of the dummy round, bullet looks kind rough due to me running it through the barrel.

 

Once again, thank you!

Al