Shotgun style and why

[Texas Jack Black]

 I see a lot of videos of  Loading doubles and loading  the 97 with 4 over the top . I know Widder has his special way pulling two which is Fast but how about talking about  and showing a few videos of loading two over the top vs 4 and showing the different belts  why you chose the type you did and show the grab.  Can you pull two and be as fast as those who pull 4 ?.

 

 Thank you

 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Disclaimer... I shoot doubles because of a long ago incident with the flag of a '97.

I have both single and double loop belts but as I said running a double I prefer the double loop style.

Of the shooters I have seen, personally, running '97's really quickly, all of them pull four. Widder is of course part Borg so there you go.

While I don't run a '97 for anything but Wild Bunch (where it is stoked to begin with) I am told that a trip to the belt to grab shells two at a time costs about 1 1/2 seconds each time thus the importance of getting the maximum number of shells in your hand on each trip. If I could pull four at a time for my doubles then I would.

YMMV

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

I have shot hammered doubles forever.

I prefer the single loop canvas shotgun belt.

 

Reason is I can load the loops two rounds, skip one, load two rounds on the belt.

I can feel how many rounds I have in my hand before pulling them. (pull 2 at a time)

If I drop one, I can go back to the belt and pick just one from the side leaving the two side by side together for the next grab.

Using the two rounds per loop, this leaves one round loose in the loop and I found I thought about whether it was going to fall out and not be there if I needed it.

 

I like my shotgun belt down all the way on top of my gun belt. No gap between the two belts.

[Silver Sam, SASS #34718L]

It's different for everyone..... Ya just have to try em Both and see what works best for You.

 

Personally I prefer a SxS.... an SKB in my case.

I own a couple of em...... They Never break, knockwood!

 

If you do go with a '97... You'll need 3 in your rotation

One to Shoot, One in your cart for a Backup and One will be in the shop getting fixed.....

 

[Doc Shapiro]

57 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Disclaimer... I shoot doubles because of a long ago incident with the flag of a '97.

I have both single and double loop belts but as I said running a double I prefer the double loop style.

Of the shooters I have seen, personally, running '97's really quickly, all of them pull four. Widder is of course part Borg so there you go.

While I don't run a '97 for anything but Wild Bunch (where it is stoked to begin with) I am told that a trip to the belt to grab shells two at a time costs about 1 1/2 seconds each time thus the importance of getting the maximum number of shells in your hand on each trip. If I could pull four at a time for my doubles then I would.

YMMV

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

there is a way to pull 4 with a SxS. But for me, fumble factor was way too high

[Photo Shooter]

Doc Shapiro,

 

Just curious but what is the technique for pulling 4 for the SXS?  

 

Thanks!

 

Photo

[Sedalia Dave]

Don't leave out the 1887. With practice it is awfully fast.

 

 

 

I seem to remember a video of Smokestack speed running an 87 but I can't find it.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

12 hours ago, john brown said:

 Can you pull two and be as fast as those who pull 4 ?.

 

 Thank you

 

 

I think you want to know if pulling 2 shells TWICE is as fast as pulling 4.

 

Just my opinion and experience:  On a good run for some of the top shooters, either method can be equally as fast.   

With SG in hand, shells in belt, not grasping the shells, my fastest 2 shots has been recorded at 1.00 second.

Same starting position, my fastest 4 shots (grabbing 2 at a time) is 2.30 seconds.

Same starting position, my fastest 6 shots (grabbing 2 at a time) is 3.82 seconds.

In actual competition against Red Knee (TN State 2019), my best 6 on 6 was 4.24 seconds.

All these listed times were actually shooting at real knockdowns, approx 10 yards out.

 

So, can pulling 2 be as fast as pulling 4?   You be the judge.

 

My fastest recorded split has been .37 seconds between shots 1 and 2.

My fastest pickup (back down to the belt for the 3rd shot) has been .89 of a second.  Normally, the time is around .95 +/-.

 

Although I wear a Doc Noper leather belt with single CANVAS loops, I think the Doc Noper belt with elastic loops is a better and faster

type rig.

 

Regardless of what a feller can or can't do, accomplishments are usually in direct relationship to PRACTICE....... correct PRACTICE.

 

I have trouble grabbing 4 shells and feeding over the top.   I enjoy watching those who can grab 4.

 

While we are talking about SG techniques, speed, etc..... don't overlook the method Santa Fe River Stan uses.   He grabs 3 with left hand and 1 with his right hand.

Indeed, he is also one of the fastest in our game, along with guys like Red Knee, Deuce, Copperhead Joe, SideKick, Prestidigitator,

Arcadia Outlaw, Missouri Traveler, Hells Comin, and a handful of others who's name eludes me at this time.

And of course, check out the real good video recently posted by the Outlaw Travis James.

 

If you want to see any of my practice, dry fire videos, check out YouTube under Widder Dryfire Practice #1, #2, and #3.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Not the best run but you can see the pull and feed four from the right side (I'm a lefty)

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Hey JEDI Creeker,

that method/technique using the 97 may very well be the best method for consistency and speed.   Red Knee uses that technique

and he is crazy fast.   I think he is normally less than 3 seconds for 4,  but when he is in speed mode, he can burn those 4 shots around

2.5 - 2.6 seconds.

 

He can make you sweat during a side match speed contest..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Hendo]

10 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Not the best run but you can see the pull and feed four from the right side (I'm a lefty)

 

Mind if I ask you how you're holding the rounds and working the slide?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

6 minutes ago, Hendo said:

Mind if I ask you how you're holding the rounds and working the slide?

I have a leather double loop shell belt.

I sweep across the shells with the right hand encircling the four shells, squeezing the shells together (my middle finger is applying pressure; "squeezing" the shells together within the web between the thumb and first finger)

Raising my hand to the shotgun port - the shells are now stacked horizontally - the LOWEST shell (one closest to my wrist {least controlled}) is fed into the port.

The three remaining shells are controlled by the ring finger and pinky and slapped against the forearm - shotgun racked by the thumb - first and middle finger.

Hard to see - but in other videos; you can see my hand is tilted at the rear to allow for the space of the shells.

Upon rearward rack/ ejection - the next lowest shell is placed into the port and the actions repeated.

 

BUT...  You cannot have any love for your forearm and use this method. 

My 97 fore arm looks like a ravenous beaver got hold of it - it has a very VERY pronounced divot dug out of the underside from many shells digging a canoe into it. 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

3 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

there is a way to pull 4 with a SxS. But for me, fumble factor was way too high

That was what I found as well. When things work right, from the table, I could get into the mid three's for four rounds. When I train wrecked the TO had time for a cup of coffee and a doughnut. At about 20%good, 80% wreck I gave it up. I now pull two at a time and am pretty consistent right at four seconds for four rounds. Decided to go with what worked for me though I am pretty amazed at what some of the 97 guys can do. Maybe someday .

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

[Hendo]

20 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I have a leather double loop shell belt.

I sweep across the shells with the right hand encircling the four shells, squeezing the shells together (my middle finger is applying pressure; "squeezing" the shells together within the web between the thumb and first finger)

Raising my hand to the shotgun port - the shells are now stacked horizontally - the LOWEST shell (one closest to my wrist {least controlled}) is fed into the port.

The three remaining shells are controlled by the ring finger and pinky and slapped against the forearm - shotgun racked by the thumb - first and middle finger.

Hard to see - but in other videos; you can see my hand is tilted at the rear to allow for the space of the shells.

Upon rearward rack/ ejection - the next lowest shell is placed into the port and the actions repeated.

 

BUT...  You cannot have any love for your forearm and use this method. 

My 97 fore arm looks like a ravenous beaver got hold of it - it has a very VERY pronounced divot dug out of the underside from many shells digging a canoe into it. 

Thanks for that, I've been trying to figure out how to do 4. I'm a lefty and the 97 just works well for me, that and I blame Lee Marvin for it, too. I keep practicing different ways of getting 4 into play, I just gotta figure out what works best for me. Well, that and not hooking my thumb into my vest or shirt on the pull.

(A lefty problem for sure.) 

[Doc Shapiro]

3 hours ago, Photo Shooter said:

Doc Shapiro,

 

Just curious but what is the technique for pulling 4 for the SXS?  

 

Thanks!

 

Photo

 

Hey!  Been a while since I've seen you.  Last time was at the annual at Cowboy Town a few years back.

 

I'd be happy to demo on a video call.  Not so sure I can describe it in text.  It does have a pretty high fumble factor, so I rarely do it.  Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

 

Doc

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

[Tom Bullweed]

Longhunter has videos on youtube that show some good basic techniques and differences in the guns.

I am an average shooting (which wishes that there more time to become a better shooter), and I shoot both styles: 97s when shooting B-Western and SxS when shooting Frontiersman.

Stages can slightly favor one style over the other with target counting and grouping.  Two pairs of targets are better for a double-barrel.  I can grab three but not four, so six targets favor a 97 for me.

I am more accurate looking down one barrel than two.

A 97 extracts harder than a SxS that may favor only smooth sides hulls.

Winchester made over a million 1897s.  My 'guess' is that less than 100k have seen cowboy.  There are still many, many 97s available.

I use all shooting for more tactical applications.  in a social setting, I prefer a 97 over any two-shot gun.

[Texas Jack Black]

 Thanks to all who responded to my question. I spent a few hours early this morning with the pull  style Stan uses and it works VERY well when I do my part. Once again THANK YOU ALL.

  I will also  try out the other  methods . A double is also in my sights from Long hunter.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I don't shoot a '97 too often but  this thread got me fired up, so for about 5 minutes last night I practiced with dummies grabbing three with my left hand and one with the right.  Wasn't pretty.  I tried it on one stage today.  Still not pretty, but at least I didn't drop any.  

[Tennessee williams]

On 2/18/2022 at 5:19 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I think you want to know if pulling 2 shells TWICE is as fast as pulling 4.

 

Just my opinion and experience:  On a good run for some of the top shooters, either method can be equally as fast.   

With SG in hand, shells in belt, not grasping the shells, my fastest 2 shots has been recorded at 1.00 second.

Same starting position, my fastest 4 shots (grabbing 2 at a time) is 2.30 seconds.

Same starting position, my fastest 6 shots (grabbing 2 at a time) is 3.82 seconds.

In actual competition against Red Knee (TN State 2019), my best 6 on 6 was 4.24 seconds.

All these listed times were actually shooting at real knockdowns, approx 10 yards out.

 

So, can pulling 2 be as fast as pulling 4?   You be the judge.

 

My fastest recorded split has been .37 seconds between shots 1 and 2.

My fastest pickup (back down to the belt for the 3rd shot) has been .89 of a second.  Normally, the time is around .95 +/-.

 

Although I wear a Doc Noper leather belt with single CANVAS loops, I think the Doc Noper belt with elastic loops is a better and faster

type rig.

 

Regardless of what a feller can or can't do, accomplishments are usually in direct relationship to PRACTICE....... correct PRACTICE.

 

I have trouble grabbing 4 shells and feeding over the top.   I enjoy watching those who can grab 4.

 

While we are talking about SG techniques, speed, etc..... don't overlook the method Santa Fe River Stan uses.   He grabs 3 with left hand and 1 with his right hand.

Indeed, he is also one of the fastest in our game, along with guys like Red Knee, Deuce, Copperhead Joe, SideKick, Prestidigitator,

Arcadia Outlaw, Missouri Traveler, Hells Comin, and a handful of others who's name eludes me at this time.

And of course, check out the real good video recently posted by the Outlaw Travis James.

 

If you want to see any of my practice, dry fire videos, check out YouTube under Widder Dryfire Practice #1, #2, and #3.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

That's fast on water

[Doc Shapiro]

Almost walkin’ on water. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

I load two at a time with my right hand in my 1887 and two at a time with my left hand when loading a side by side.