1858 caliber

[Miles]

G'day, Please forgive me if this has been asked many times before, but a search didn't help me.

 

I'm trying to determine what a revolver is chambered in.

 

I have a Remington 1858 with a conversion cylinder.  S/N 33250.  The top of the 8" octagon barrel has the patent date and E. REMINGTON & SONS ILION NEW YORK U.S.A.  It does NOT have NEW MODEL ARMY  or anything else stamped onto the top of the barrel, the S/N is on the bottom.  It's front sight is in a small dove tail.  There is an A stamped on the left side of the barrel just ahead of the main frame and an upside down C stamped on the right side of the barrel just in front of the main frame, and an upside down C stamped on the right side of the main frame just on front of the cylinder.   There is an M stamped on the frame just behind the brass trigger guard and in front of the wooden grip, and two Js stamped on the cylinder 180 degrees apart just in front of where the rear part of the cylinder is attached to the front part.  It also has an S stamped on the left side of the mainframe above the hammer pivot screw.

 

The cylinder is a two piece,  the front part approx 1.575" and the rear approx. 0.275"  I read only the new model belt revolver had the two piece cylinder and were 38 caliber, this one looks to be a .44.  I tried measuring the bores in the cylinder with a caliper and came up with 0.4535" measuring at the front of the bores and 0.4570 at the rear.

 

My question is how do I determine what caliber this gun is and what cartridge I should use?  It is a center fire.  If it is indeed chambered for a 44, which one?  There seem to be several that were being produced in the mid to late 1800s.

I've not seen or touched a Remington 1858 before Tuesday this week and know nothing about them, any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you.

[Miles]

My apologies, after going to the SCORRS site and reading an article by Mr. John Wolf, I have discovered I do not have a 1858 model, but rather one of the others.  I do not know which at this time.  A beginners error.

[Slapshot]

I'm fairly new at this but looks like a 1858 to me.

[Crisco]

looks like a converted 1863.  

.44 Remington cartridge would be .480" rim, .448" base, 1.065 case length, .447 bullet, and I would guess cartridge length around 1.50 like the .44 Colt.

Seems like it would be a sloppy fit for a .44 Remington, a little better for a .44 Colt, but not sure big enough for any larger cartridge of the period.  Maybe hollow base bullets would justify the large cylinder throats. 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

 

[Miles]

It's a center fire.

After reading the posts in 'A history lesson',  I'm really confused.  I assume mine is not an original conversion of any of the three types, it has six bores.  I'm wondering if the percussion cap part of  the cylinder was cut off and a rear section added to it to covert to cartridges.  I'm also wondering what type of rim the cartridge would have, even a 38-40 case case wont fit.  The case body itself if fairy loose in the chamber but the rim wont fit down.  The only cases I could find laying around that rims would fit past the center geared part of the cylinder were 30-30, 30 WCF, and 32 special.

 

As far as bullets, the 44-40 Winchester has a 0.427 bullet, the 44 S&W special, the 44 rem. Ma. and the 44 Russian all have 0.429 bullets.  I have some 0.429 bullets and they drop right through the Barrel  bore.  So they're too small.  That leaves the 44 America, 44 Webley, 44 Colt, and 44 Remington Centerfire.  they all have bullets bigger than 0.429 and rims smaller than the rifle cases I tried.  I can't find the 44 Remington in any of the books I have, or anyplace that sells the ammo or cases.

[Crisco]

I have to think the .44 Remington is/was pretty scarce ( “Cartridges of the World” doesn’t even mention it; I found the above dimensions somewhere on the web), but that or an original .44 Colt are sounding more and more likely considering the small rim and heeled bullet.  I think they kept the rims really small so they could chamber 6.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

oops

 

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

Been a while since I read up on these, but if I remember correctly, the original cylinder had the nipples cut out, a ring of steel pressed over and cut for cartridges. So that is a two piece cyl. The cartridge is a proprietary one, but likely the same as .44 colt, it would be a heel type bullet, that is the bullet is the same diameter as the case with a smaller dia at the heel to fit in the case( like a .22 rim fire).

[El CupAJoe]

Just curious,  what's the back of the cylinder plate and profile of the hammer look like?

[Miles]

Yup, that seems to be what it is, so the lower original front part of the case would be the stock bore size unless it was reamed out when the reamed the back part.

[Miles]

Sorry El Cupa, Missed that post.  Here's a pic.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

No doubt about it being a centerfire gun.  Do you have to take the cylinder out to load it?

No idea as to what the cartridge is anymore. 

[Miles]

Sorry for not answering this before, the whole topic got sidetract to another post.

Yes the cylinder has to come out to load.

Seems the caliber/cartridge was 44 Remington.  What I've got for it is 44 colt cases and a .449" heeled bullet to load.  It's what another person is using in his original 1858 armory conversion Remington.

 

Thank you.

Al

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

You could use .429" bullets with a hollow base too, if you can find them.   Then you don't have to work with heeled bullets if you don't want to.

[Rip Snorter]

Check out the May issue of Shooting Times, there is a good article on improvising for old handgun ammo.

[watab kid]

this has been an interesting thread , i am enjoying the read 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I have been meaning to answer you, glad this thread came up again.

 

The Remington New Model Army percussion revolver was patented in 1858, that is why we usually refer to it as the 1858 model. The marking you describe on top of your Remington is correct for the New Model Army. They were produced in the Ilion, New York factory from 1863 until 1873, and approximately 132,000 were made. Yes, they did not say New Model Army on them anywhere, 19th Century firearms manufacturers often did not mark the actual model number or name on their firearms. Remington was making quite a few different percussion model revolvers, but your photo clearly looks like a New Model Army (often called the 1858 model) to me.

 

At this time, the Rollin White patent for revolvers with bored through chambers that could accept cartridges was still in effect. Smith and Wesson had exclusive rights to manufacture revolvers using the ideas set out in the patent. Contrary to popular opinion, S&W did not own the patent, Daniel Wesson had tried to buy the patent rights, but White would not sell the rights. Instead an exclusive licensing agreement was worked out between S&W and White giving S&W exclusive rights to manufacture cartridge revolvers. This was back in 1856. S&W paid White a royalty of 25 cents on every revolver they made using White's patent.

 

The White patent was the reason that the major revolver manufacturers did not make any cartridge revolvers during the Civil War, only S&W could do that. These are the three sizes of cartridge revolvers S&W was producing at the time. Top to bottom, the 32 Rimfire #2 Old Army, 32 Rimfire #1 1/2, and #1 that fired a cartridge we would call today the 22 Short.

 

 

 

 

 

These revolvers were known as the Tip Up revolvers. It was a very simple design. In order to load, a latch at the bottom of the frame was depressed, allowing the barrel to rotate up. The cylinder was then popped out of the frame, and the rod under the barrel was used to poke spent cartridges out of the cylinder. Fresh cartridges were loaded into the chamber, the cylinder popped back in place, the barrel rotated back down and latched in place and the revolver was ready to fire.

 

 

 

 

 

S&W never made any Tip Ups bigger than 32 Rimfire, they experimented with a 44 caliber version, but they decided the design was not strong enough for a 44 caliber cartridge. So through out the Civil War, from 1861 until 1865, if one wanted a powerful revolver one was limited to a Remington, Colt or other brand 44 Cap & Ball revolver. The 32 caliber #2 Old Army pictured above was very popular with Union officers who bought them with their own money. Not as powerful as a 44 caliber Cap & Ball, but much faster to reload. After the White patent expired S&W came out with Top Break revolvers, but that is another story for another time.

 

There were a great many 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers in the US inventory at the end of the Civil War. The White patent did not expire until 1869, so all the other manufacturers were still bound by it. In 1868 Remington signed a contract with S&W to convert a number of New Model Army C&B revolvers to fire cartridges. These revolvers were converted to fire a 46 caliber (yes, 46) rimfire cartridge. I'm pretty sure new cylinders had to be made, because there were only five chambers, not six on these conversions. A total of 4,574 revolvers were altered at the Remington factory in Ilion, NY. S&W received a royalty of $1.00 for every revolver that was converted because they still controlled the White patent.

 

The most comprehensive book about the conversion revolvers of Colt as well as Remington and a few other brands is A Study of Colt Conversions and Other Percussion Revolvers by R. Bruce McDowell. I have been searching through my copy trying to find a photo that resembles your revolver.

 

I have taken the liberty of taking a few photos from McDowell's book. I hope I will not get in trouble because I have credited exactly where the photos came from.

 

This is one of the S&W 46 caliber conversions. If you stand on your head you can read the patent date of the White patent on the cylinder. Notice the cuts at the rear of the cylinder to allow the rimfire hammer to fall all the way. This was a one piece cylinder.

 

 

 

 

 

This photo is the closest I have been able to come to your revolver. It is not in good enough focus to see if the cylinder is two pieces like yours, but I suspect it is a two piece cylinder. You will note an ejector rod has been added to this revolver. He does not show it, but McDowell mentions the hammer nose has been reshaped to strike a centerfire cartridge, much like yours.

 

 

 

 

 

McDowell states that during 1870 and 1871 44 caliber Remington and Colt centerfire cartridges were developed at the Frankford Arsenal.

 

I do not have a photo of the Remington cartridge, but this is a photo of an original Colt Richards Conversion revolver with four original 44 Colt cartridges. These cartridges used a 'heeled bullet', meaning the rear portion of the bullet was of a reduced diameter, to fit inside the mouth of the cartridge case. The outside diameter of the bullet was the same diameter as the cartridge case, just like modern 22 Rimfire ammo. The outside diameter of these bullets is .452, which jibes with the .451 groove diameter of the barrel. Later, the 45 Colt cartridge was developed using a .452 diameter bullet but the entire bullet was the same diameter as the inside of the case, unlike the heeled bullets used in the 44 Colt cartridge.

 

 

 

 

 

McDowell goes on to say that these cylinders will accept 44 Russian cartridges. I find this difficult to believe, because the 44 Russian cartridge uses a .429 diameter bullet,  just like 44 Special and 44 Magnum. Perhaps what McDowell means is that a 44 Russian will chamber in this cylinder, even though the bullet is way undersized for the rifling.

 

The White patent expired in 1869, leaving the field wide open for revolver manufacturers to introduce revolvers with chambers bored through that could accept cartridges. S&W introduced their revolutionary Top Break American Model at that time, Colt had a few cartridge conversion models but did not introduce the Single Action Army until 1873, and Remington did not introduce their cartridge revolver until 1875.

 

However, even though the White patent was still in effect until 1869, many Remington percussion revolvers were converted to fire cartridges prior to that time by independent gunsmiths, who did not have to worry about patents.

 

It is conceivable your revolver is one of those.

 

If the revolver was mine the first thing I would do is slug the barrel. Modern reproduction Remington Cap & Ball revolvers all have groove diameters close enough to .451 that they can be fitted with conversion cylinders for 45 Colt. Lie this:

 

 

 

 

 

If you slug your barrel and find the groove diameter is close to .451, that is half the battle. Next I would examine the chambers closely to see if they have a step which narrows the mouth of the chamber down from the diameter of the cartridge case. If no step, if the chambers are one diameter all the way through, then they were meant to fire a cartridge with a heeled bullet, such as the original version of the 44 Colt.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

P.S.

 

Check to see if the barrel has gain twist rifling. My Richards Conversion does. Prior to the Civil War gain twist rifling or progressive twist rifling was used a lot. The rate of twist increases as the bullet travels down the barrel. The theory was it would disturb the bullet less to gradually increase the spin rate as the bullet traveled down the barrel. Eventually it must have been decided that the added expense of gain twist rifling was not worth the effort, so it was not used anymore. No modern firearm uses gain twist rifling to my knowledge.