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Budget Frontiersman Shotshell loads


El CupAJoe

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Black powder loads in random hulls scavenged from trap and skeet range.  No shotshell reloading equipment.  should I just over shot card and glue, or get a roll crimper?  if glue, what works best on plastic hulls?

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  • El CupAJoe changed the title to Budget Frontiersman Shotshell loads
32 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

Black powder loads in random hulls scavenged from trap and skeet range.  No shotshell reloading equipment.  should I just over shot card and glue, or get a roll crimper?  if glue, what works best on plastic hulls?

You will be plucking every shell out if you don't resize the base.

 

I would try to find a Lee Load all II to do your shells on.  They are relatively inexpensive and will save a lot of frustration for you.

 

That said, in a pinch I would use a roll crimper after cutting the folds off the shells.

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3 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

You will be plucking every shell out if you don't resize the base.

 

I would try to find a Lee Load all II to do your shells on.  They are relatively inexpensive and will save a lot of frustration for you.

 

That said, in a pinch I would use a roll crimper after cutting the folds off the shells.

anyone make an inexpensive base sizer for 20 gauge?  Also, wouldn't it matter more going in than coming out?  if it chambers, it shouldn't be any different than a sized shell?  

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11 minutes ago, El CupAJoe said:

anyone make an inexpensive base sizer for 20 gauge?  Also, wouldn't it matter more going in than coming out?  if it chambers, it shouldn't be any different than a sized shell?  

Not separately that I know of.

 

It matters both ways, actually, depending on what the shells were used in initially.  Generally speaking, you only use unsized shells in the gun they were fired in due to varying chamber sizes.

 

In my experience, once fired shells do not just drop in, hence the need to be resized.  Once unsized shells are fired again, if the base expands more, it will need to be plucked.

 

YMMV and if time is of no worries, you can go commando with a roll crimped shell.  I do that myself with the 10 gauge as it is a just for fun gun.

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Actually I'd be more concerned about the cheap fired hulls with steel bases not being resized than the brass bases not being resized. Brass base seems to expand when fired and then retract some where the steel bases just seem to expand.

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Look for a MEC 600 Jr. on sleez-bay and never look back.  I've been using one since beginning shooting skeet back in 1974/5.  Buy a bag of (500) of Claybuster CB-1138-12 wads and begin picking up once fired AA hulls.  Station # 1 decaps and sizes the base,  prime at station 2, station 3 dump in your powder of choice set wad, drop the ram, paying attention to amount of compression and dump in shot.  Your powder/wad/shot column should be right at the bend of the crimp.  Station 4 pre-crimps, (make sure the crimp starter die can rotate in the holder, and then final crimp in Station 5.  Easy Peasy.

 

Some will tell you that you shouldn't use BP in a powder drop, and that's ok, other folks have their routines and I have mine.  I've been using this MEC since I started loading BP in shotshells in 1986, no issues!  Takes me about an hour to load 100 rounds.  In my 12 ga I use a 1 oz shot bar and a #43 powder bushing.  Gives me plenty of powder for knockdowns and flyers... I could probably drop a couple of bushing sizes... but these work.

 

My only advice is to NOT use Pyrodex.  Simply doesn't clean up well, super corrosive  While I have plenty of Remington hulls... I keep them for my smokeless reloads... I probably have several hundred AAs that I've picked up over the years... and keep adding to the stash.  Lots of folks only shoot new hulls and don't reload their shotshells... at the price of shot these days, it's not all that cost effective.  For BP loads, it's necessary.  I won't pick up just any hull... This way I know that my red hulls are all BP and are uniform in how they'll reload and perform.  I don't pick up my hulls to reload, as they tend to burn a bit on outside and will possibly hang up in the chamber from that rough exterior.  I probably pick up enough hulls other shooters discard at a 6 stage monthly match to get me thru 1-¼ matches!

 

The plastic wads will leave a mess inside your barrels... I run hot water thru the bbls to soften the fouling, then using a plastic brush wrapped in a cleaning patch, push it all out in one swipe.  Remove the patch at the muzzle end and discard;  then finish cleaning as normal and leave the barrel after finish wipe with an oily patch.  Wipe once more with a dry patch when I take the gun out of the safe for the next use, always works.  Bores are bright and shiny after 30+ years of BP use!

 

Keep your chambers polished, (I've honed mine out slightly, and polished with machine lapping compound to bring them to a mirror finish.  My hulls jump out of the chamber with a smart backward thrust and are ready to accept the new ones.  I rarely, if ever, have had to wipe them out during a 6-stage day of shooting.

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1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

anyone make an inexpensive base sizer for 20 gauge?

answered my own question.  Plus shipping obviously, but I've got a pile of "free"  lee accessories I need to just buy at some point.

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I recommend you avoid using random shells and just use one brand.  Some random shells may use larger, European primers.  Your primers may fit too loose.  Also, some shells use thin plastic that buckles easily.  If you can get once-fired AAs they will reload well.  I get once-fired Remington Gun Clubs that reload OK.  Be more selective in your scrounging.  If you can get Remington Nitro or STS hulls with shot out crimps, cut off the old crimps and load them.

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'Eh??

 

None of the above actually.  Speaking of "Budget."  Source up about 100 All Brass Magtech hulls, a Baggie of BPI Spitfire Wads, a Baggie of Over-Shot cards.  All Brass hulls will last near forever.  Seldom need resizing (lest some ham-hock steps on one.  You may also want an RCBS set and shell holder for de-prime and prime.  Large Pistol Primers.  Easy peasy.

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

'Eh??

 

None of the above actually.  Speaking of "Budget."  Source up about 100 All Brass Magtech hulls, a Baggie of BPI Spitfire Wads, a Baggie of Over-Shot cards.  All Brass hulls will last near forever.  Seldom need resizing (lest some ham-hock steps on one.  You may also want an RCBS set and shell holder for de-prime and prime.  Large Pistol Primers.  Easy peasy.

This plan I've hatched is just temporary (unless it works ;))  I haven't seen Magtech 20 gauge hulls for sale except maybe once in the last year and a half.  at a minimum of $30 a box it'll be upwards of $120 for a hundred.  I want to go that route eventually, but I know I won't have that ready by the time I want to get out to my next match.  I have them on my short list to buy a box here or there when available.  Just need something to get started with until I can source them and in greater quantities than my spending budget currently allows.

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CupAJoe

 

I'm living a sheltered life apparently.  The last time I shopped MagTech, they were 25 Bucks a box and readily available.  Just went back to BPI and saw Brass hulls have gone to 33 Bucks a box.  WOWZERS.  I keep a goodly pile of components on hand so haven't seen how prices have climbed.   Also just reread and noticed your seeking 20Ga and nothing I know applies to 20Ga.  Strictly 12Ga.

 

Sorry for any false hopes I may have fostered.  Oopsies.

 

Rip Snorter

 

You got it in One.  Seating your primers full depth is very important.  I currently run my RCBS set on an inexpensive Lee Classic, to de-Prime and Prime.  I use to prime with my Drill Press.  Don't need a press for anything else.  You can also prime on a VERY FLAT surface but without a primer seater you may experience some failure to fire.  All Brass hulls are a HOOT!!!

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7 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

anyone make an inexpensive base sizer for 20 gauge?  Also, wouldn't it matter more going in than coming out?  if it chambers, it shouldn't be any different than a sized shell?  

 

 

Lee sizing rings can be bought separately. 

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013165170?pid=825950

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I used a basic Lee Load All after trying to do it without a loader for a few boxes. Yes, you don’t “need” a shot shell press, but it is worth its weight in gold. 
 

I used Remington green hulls because that was most common in the trap range garbage cans. A squared load of 4.3cc of powder and shot, separated by a conventional plastic wad. 
 

All steel targets fell over, as well as a lot of skeet targets. Cleanup was easy. 
 

But buy the Load All. You won’t regret it. 

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22 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

Black powder loads in random hulls scavenged from trap and skeet range.  No shotshell reloading equipment.  should I just over shot card and glue, or get a roll crimper?  if glue, what works best on plastic hulls?

 

This probably isn't relevant to you, but I have some British shotguns that only have a 2.5" chamber and found out that some shotgun hulls hold more powder than others.  I know Federal hulls cut down to 2.5" will hold more powder than a Herters hull.  Also don't bother with the Herters if you are going to roll crimp, I had no success and ended up scrapping the box and reclaiming the powder, shot & primers.

 

Check out BPI  http://www.ballisticproducts.com  for components and roll crimping tools

 

Your hulls MAY need to be re-sized, you can chamber check your hulls with the shotgun you are going to use and see if they slide in and out easily.  Any that don't will need to be re-sized. 

 

On edit:  This probably isn't relevant either, but using fiber wads and a roll crimp lowers the chamber pressure and lowers the bird shot velocity.  Generally good things for cowboy shooting, but not so good for skeet, sporting clays and the other clay bird sports.  I found that out the hard way shooting rounds of skeet with BP loads.

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@El CupAJoe  first off congrats to you for listening to the black voice in your head, welcome home.  Personally I’ve found that using real BP with plastic hulls to be one and done.  Others will say they get multiple reloads, but I guess I’m not that lucky.   Here’s my suggestion BPI has new primed 20 ga shells Here  That will eliminate having to prime hulls or resize.  If you use plastic wads you’ll have to remember that they are going to leave a “plastic snake” in the barrels,  not a big deal, I’ve found Windex with vinegar works well to clean them up.  If you use fiber wads then clean up is different.  Now for all the “ifs” If you have a drill press and If you don’t plan on reloading the hulls then a roll crimper is an inexpensive option, stuffing the shells can be done by hand.  You don’t have to have a drill press, I just found it easier to get consistent results. If you roll crimp then you don’t need glue, the roll crimp will hold the overshot card in place.   But If you want to reload the hulls then don’t roll crimp.   

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20 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

@El CupAJoe  first off congrats to you for listening to the black voice in your head, welcome home.  Personally I’ve found that using real BP with plastic hulls to be one and done.  Others will say they get multiple reloads, but I guess I’m not that lucky.   Here’s my suggestion BPI has new primed 20 ga shells Here  That will eliminate having to prime hulls or resize.  If you use plastic wads you’ll have to remember that they are going to leave a “plastic snake” in the barrels,  not a big deal, I’ve found Windex with vinegar works well to clean them up.  If you use fiber wads then clean up is different.  Now for all the “ifs” If you have a drill press and If you don’t plan on reloading the hulls then a roll crimper is an inexpensive option, stuffing the shells can be done by hand.  You don’t have to have a drill press, I just found it easier to get consistent results. If you roll crimp then you don’t need glue, the roll crimp will hold the overshot card in place.   But If you want to reload the hulls then don’t roll crimp.   

thanks for the advise, I think these will be one and done as I have a pretty ready supply of used hulls down at the trap and skeet range.  I plan on getting some 1 oz field loads, pulling the shot to make my BP loads and reloading the field loads with cast buckshot, can't have too much buckshot.  I'm going to try 1/2 oz or 2/3 oz BP loads to make the shot last longer.  If I have difficulty with the knockdowns, I'll bump up the payload a bit.  I've had pretty good groups muzzle loading my shotgun using paper tube wads to help hold the pattern together, more R&D needed though.

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I have found that if you roll crimp, you can cut the old roll off and reuse the hull, given it isn't scorched, and get another loading out of it.  You will have to adjust the wad column of bit to the shorter shell.  Start out with 7/8-1 oz (12ga) load on the first go around and then drop to 3/4-7/8 oz for the second go around.  I use (12ga) 60-65 grs of FFG but that can also be dropped down to 35-40 grs as needed.

 

BP is a hoot, have fun with it.

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23 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

anyone make an inexpensive base sizer for 20 gauge?  Also, wouldn't it matter more going in than coming out?  if it chambers, it shouldn't be any different than a sized shell?  

 

https://leeprecision.com/sizer-l-a-20-ga.html

 

A hand bomb operation, but it will do the job. The MEC Supersizer is the top drawer unit IMHO.

 

https://www.mecoutdoors.com/super-sizer

 

BB

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8 minutes ago, Big Rock, SASS #44055 said:

Glue:  Cheap Hot glue gun and glue from Harbor Freight.  gun $4.99  bag of 50 sticks of glue, $4.99  plus tax

are the plastic hulls reusable with BP and this method?

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You can also use Duco Cement, it’s what I use to hold the overshot card down on my brass hulls. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I have found that if you roll crimp, you can cut the old roll off and reuse the hull, given it isn't scorched, and get another loading out of it.  You will have to adjust the wad column of bit to the shorter shell.  Start out with 7/8-1 oz (12ga) load on the first go around and then drop to 3/4-7/8 oz for the second go around.  I use (12ga) 60-65 grs of FFG but that can also be dropped down to 35-40 grs as needed.

 

BP is a hoot, have fun with it.

 

Shooting an ‘87 so I quickly learned the importance of OAL, now in a SxS that’s a whole different story. 

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4 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

You can also use Duco Cement, it’s what I use to hold the overshot card down on my brass hulls. 

 

 

 

Shooting an ‘87 so I quickly learned the importance of OAL, now in a SxS that’s a whole different story. 

My '87 isn't OAL sensitive but the short shells are for a double.

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a roll crimp can take up any difference in the powder, shot, wad that might occur from using different type of shot shells.  If you do roll crimp, do a whole lot at the same time on a drill press.  That thing needs to be warm to work.  

About every 5 shell hold a candle to the roll crimper and melt some wax where the shell rubs on the little nubs.  A little bullet lube on the shell also works.  Makes a neater and roll and I think it helps transfer the heat.  

The old antique ones tend to work only on the paper/wax shells.  

With the drill press, you can get a very slight taper to the shell but still legal.

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I'm not sure how much use that base sizer would be ON ITS OWN.  Its designed to be used in the Load All press....    Which uses it in a specific way...on and off...   Anyone ever used one without the Load All? 

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Hey C O J , I have an older but still good Mec- 600 Jr. you can have, it needs the wad fingers in the third stage but I believe you can buy an upgrade wad guide for it for around $ 20.00 last I checked. Anyhow it’s yours if you want it and while your here you might as well shoot a few stages with us!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Hey C O J , I have an older but still good Mec- 600 Jr. you can have, it needs the wad fingers in the third stage but I believe you can buy an upgrade wad guide for it for around $ 20.00 last I checked. Anyhow it’s yours if you want it and while your here you might as well shoot a few stages with us!

 

 

 

I appreciate it!  I know you'll be at the classic cowboy showdown, It's my daughter's birthday weekend, so I'm seeing if that's something she'd like to do or not.  Otherwise, I'll try to make it out to a CTAGA match this spring.

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10 hours ago, Constable Nelson #11784 said:

I'm not sure how much use that base sizer would be ON ITS OWN.  Its designed to be used in the Load All press....    Which uses it in a specific way...on and off...   Anyone ever used one without the Load All? 

 

On it's own the LEE Sizer needs some other "tools" to make life easier. It's rather unfortunate that LEE discontinued the LEE Loader for 20 ga. A short piece of tubing that the body of the shell will fit into will make whacking the shell into the sizer easier. A short piece of dowel and something to support the sizer will make removal routine. 

 

I've loaded 12, 16, 20 and 410, and I've had or have LEE Loader kits and I've used them. They are fairly handy and work well but they do require some technique. On the down side, they are priced up to $100 a set. If your shells work for you, you may want to buy a press. Some of the older discontinued presses would work OK, After all with BP, you would not use the powder part of the press. Getting bushings for some of the old ones is a bit difficult.  

 

1417204935_LEELoader20ga.thumb.jpg.ac0ef0cb8902e319a22ad122962df5e3.jpg

 

Roll crimping is an option as well. I bought a Russian made roll crimper, it works OK, but just. Again, one of those cheap tools that needs a bit of Zen and luck to figure out a procedure. 

 

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3 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

I appreciate it!  I know you'll be at the classic cowboy showdown, It's my daughter's birthday weekend, so I'm seeing if that's something she'd like to do or not.  Otherwise, I'll try to make it out to a CTAGA match this spring.

Yep, I will be there, whatever works for you, just let me know!

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2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

On it's own the LEE Sizer needs some other "tools" to make life easier. It's rather unfortunate that LEE discontinued the LEE Loader for 20 ga. A short piece of tubing that the body of the shell will fit into will make whacking the shell into the sizer easier. A short piece of dowel and something to support the sizer will make removal routine. 

 

I've loaded 12, 16, 20 and 410, and I've had or have LEE Loader kits and I've used them. They are fairly handy and work well but they do require some technique. On the down side, they are priced up to $100 a set. If your shells work for you, you may want to buy a press. Some of the older discontinued presses would work OK, After all with BP, you would not use the powder part of the press. Getting bushings for some of the old ones is a bit difficult.  

 

1417204935_LEELoader20ga.thumb.jpg.ac0ef0cb8902e319a22ad122962df5e3.jpg

 

Roll crimping is an option as well. I bought a Russian made roll crimper, it works OK, but just. Again, one of those cheap tools that needs a bit of Zen and luck to figure out a procedure. 

 

I like my 38/.357 Lee Loader.  

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