cowboy brass or regular 45 LC

[Shifty Bob]

Hi,

 

I will be receiving a new 1873 45 LC rifle soon. This will be my first in 45 LC. Should I be looking for 45 LC brass or the Cowboy 45 LC? 

 

bob

[Warden Callaway]

45 Colt. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

There is no such thing as Cowboy 45 LC brass, as far as I know.

 

You may be talking about the 45 Cowboy Special. This is short brass developed for Cowboy Action shooting. The same rim configuration as 45 Colt, but the same length and powder capacity as 45 ACP. Left to right in this photo the cartridges are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. For a rifle to cycle and chamber the 45 Cowboy Special round it would have to be modified with a new carrier. A stock 1873 will not cycle them.

 

 

 

 

 

You want 45 Colt. (There is no such thing as 45LC or 45 Long Colt, although many shooters, and even some manufacturers refer to it that way.  The official name of the cartridge is simply 45 Colt. That is what you want for your 1873.

[watab kid]

rifles can be finicky about OAL , your revolvers wont care a lot , i load 45colt and have mine set to run well in my rifle , just loaded about 500 and i love the ease of my carbide dies , i loaded 500 38s with steel dies and i cant say the same for those - im looking to upgrade this year 

[Diamond Jake]

The only reason I see for shorter cases is to reduce recoil, and the weight of the 1873 rifle makes recoil negligible anyway.  I shoot 45 Colt in my rifle and 45 Schofield brass in my handguns.  I carry extra 45 C loads in case I need a reshoot, and honestly I don't notice much difference in the pistols between the 45C and 45 Schofield, using 200 gr bullets and light loads of Clean Shot powder.  

 

Using my hunting loads of 45C with 250 gr bullets and max charge of Unique in my revolvers is a different story!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If you use the C45S brass (Cowboy 45 Special), especially in a Marlin 1894, your accuracy will suffer..... Yes, even at close ranges.

 

As knowledgeable others have stated above, use .45 Colt brass for your rifle.

 

..........Widder

 

[Shifty Bob]

Thank you for your responses. and yes I did not have the right description of the cowboy brass. It is shortened like an ACP with a Colt rim.

 

The only reason I brought up the cowboy brass was it was the only kind I could find. Seems like all the 45 Colt brass is sold out.

 

So know I know it won't work in a rifle (without mod).

 

will keep looking for 45 colt brass

 

thanks again partners

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Wow.

 

I just checked Starline, where I buy all my brass. Even they are out of stock of 45 Colt.

 

This has all been caused by the recent ammo shortage. As factory ammunition has become difficult to find, more shooters are getting interested in reloading their own ammo. So now there is a shortage of brass, bullets, primers and powder.

 

This has happened before. 45 Colt is a very popular cartridge and I doubt it will be very long before Starline makes some more. They usually have a minimum order of 500 pieces, but once it gets back in the supply chain you should be able to find 45 Colt brass in smaller quantities at places like Midway USA.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Well dang, there it is - the elusive .45 LC factory ammo. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

8 hours ago, Shifty Bob said:

Thank you for your responses. and yes I did not have the right description of the cowboy brass. It is shortened like an ACP with a Colt rim.

 

The only reason I brought up the cowboy brass was it was the only kind I could find. Seems like all the 45 Colt brass is sold out.

 

So know I know it won't work in a rifle (without mod).

 

will keep looking for 45 colt brass

 

thanks again partners

Shifty, if you want to trade that 45CS brass for 45 Colt, I think you wil have no problem doing it quickly.

[Needle-Nose-Tom]

45cs is in stock now at starline. Got mine in 2 days. 45 colt out of stock. 

[Griff]

If Starline allows back orders on 45 Colt brass, go ahead and order it... your's may be the number they need to schedule into production.  I ordered some last year and received it about 2 weeks later.

 

Oh yea 3 Foot, Tombstone, a well recognized large producer of ammo and brass. [sarcasm button off].   In order of introduction, to the best of my knowledge:  45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Colt Gov't (the elusive short 45 Colt ammo and long discontinued), 45 ACP, 45 Magnum and lastly the Cowboy 45 Special.  I've never found when this so-called 45 LC was introduced... other than in the minds of the un-informed.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

If Starline allows back orders on 45 Colt brass, go ahead and order it... your's may be the number they need to schedule into production.  I ordered some last year and received it about 2 weeks later.

 

The Starline web page says  out of stock, no back orders at this time.

 

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-colt-brass

 

If you go here, https://www.starlinebrass.com/pistol-brass you can see what is in stock, what can be back ordered, and what cannot be back ordered at this time.

 

Green means in stock, tan means back ordered, ship date to be determined, red means out of stock, no back orders at this time.

 

I'm sure Starline is working their pants off trying to catch up, but with the current ammo shortage, and new guys trying to get into reloading as an alternative, they are fighting an uphill battle right now.

 

As I said before, this is nothing new. Every time there is an ammo shortage, new shooters decide to dip their toes into reloading. So then components are hard to find too.

 

This too shall pass.

[Baltimore Ed]

Used to run just .45colt in my marlins and ‘73 rifles but since I’ve shortened my Stoeger ‘73 rifle into a ‘76 lookalike and Marlin ‘94 carbine into a Trapper I’ve had to go to .45 Schofield ammo to get 10 in the magazines. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Ya did a good job ED.   Nice looking rifle.

 

..........Widder

 

[Tequila Shooter]

22 hours ago, Shifty Bob said:

Thank you for your responses. and yes I did not have the right description of the cowboy brass. It is shortened like an ACP with a Colt rim.

 

The only reason I brought up the cowboy brass was it was the only kind I could find. Seems like all the 45 Colt brass is sold out.

 

So know I know it won't work in a rifle (without mod).

 

will keep looking for 45 colt brass

 

thanks again partners

 

If you’re willing to get once fired Capital Cartridge has them in stock.  Kind of pricey but they’ve got plenty in stock. 

[Black Angus McPherson]

16 hours ago, Griff said:

If Starline allows back orders on 45 Colt brass, go ahead and order it... your's may be the number they need to schedule into production.  I ordered some last year and received it about 2 weeks later.

 

Oh yea 3 Foot, Tombstone, a well recognized large producer of ammo and brass. [sarcasm button off].   In order of introduction, to the best of my knowledge:  45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Colt Gov't (the elusive short 45 Colt ammo and long discontinued), 45 ACP, 45 Magnum and lastly the Cowboy 45 Special.  I've never found when this so-called 45 LC was introduced... other than in the minds of the un-informed.

 

I ran across two ads in the SASS classified section with products (one was a cylinder, I don't recall the other) marked by the manufacturer as ".45 LC" or ".45 Long Colt".  Lots of the "un-informed" out here and some are manufacturers.  

 

As for me, call it .45 Colt, .45 LC or .45 Long Colt.  I really don't care.  I know what you're talking about.  Plus it may well help some otherwise under educated gun owner buy the right ammunition.  Likewise, a revolver is still a pistol (unless it's a rifle or a shotgun).  I don't understand the folks that get upset when somebody calls a handgun with a cylinder a "pistol".

 

Wait, in fact if I happen onto a conversation where somebody is referring to their ".45 Colt" or "Colt .45" I don't, necessarily, know if they are referring to a gun chambered in .45 ACP or .45 [Long] Colt.  I need a little more information.

 

Life's too short to get upset at every person that calls a magazine a clip.

 

That's my .02, that nobody asked for, to add to this conversation.  

 

Angus

 

[Rip Snorter]

Actually, this goes back to the old days when the Army was using 45 Colt and adopted a variation on the S&W # 3, the Schofield, named after the officer who suggested the design, it used a shorter, slightly less powerful version of the 45 Colt.  So Long & Short. Then there was 45 ACP, both for the 1911 and in S&W and Colt Revolvers using half moon clips during WWI.  The clips were a PITA, so when the guns were sold for surplus, and popular a 45 auto Rim was produced to feed them.  The one that throws me, is the 45 Cowboy Special - Starline sells it, so now there is one more .45!

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Rip Snorter said:

Actually, this goes back to the old days when the Army was using 45 Colt and adopted a variation on the S&W # 3, the Schofield, named after the officer who suggested the design, it used a shorter, slightly less powerful version of the 45 Colt.  So Long & Short. Then there was 45 ACP, both for the 1911 and in S&W and Colt Revolvers using half moon clips during WWI.  The clips were a PITA, so when the guns were sold for surplus, and popular a 45 auto Rim was produced to feed them.  The one that throws me, is the 45 Cowboy Special - Starline sells it, so now there is one more .45!

The shorter 45 Colt you refer to is called the 45 Colt Gov't.  As I understand it, last sold in the 1920s.  The Cowboy 45 Special, developed by a cowboy shooter, Adirondak Jack, was to develop a round that would meet the requirements of large bore shooters to be able to reduce the case capacity and thereby increase load density for a safe, reliable reduced recoil load.  

[Three Foot Johnson]

Wheeee! 

 

[Fort Reno Kid]

Howdy Pards

 

I’m using cowboy special brass with greater frequency as arthritis in my thumb joints makes for greater recoil sensitivity. The cowboy special brass is shorter (45ACP length) and provides more reliable ignition for light loads. Four grains of Unique and the Lee 160 grain cast bullet make for a gentler load and still take down the steel.

 

My brass is homegrown. Easy to trim 45LC brass to cowboy special length, particularly if you have a lathe or access to one. Over a lengthy period  of time I accumulated a fair amount of 45LC brass with neck splits. During the lockdown I took ‘em to a buddy with a lathe. An hour or so later I had a mess of cowboy special brass. Have also used same technique to trim 44 special/mag with neck splits down to 44 Russian length.

 

And, yes, rightly or wrongly I use the term, 45 long colt. The 45 Schofield (aka 45 S&W) is shorter and cowboy special is really short. A perusal of Fred Barnes’ “Cartridges of the World”, for instance, shows a whole mess of various short 45 cartridges. Guess that makes 454 Casull the 45 Extra Long and the 460 S&W the 45 Super Long (LOL!).

 

Adios

 

Fort Reno Kid 

 

 

 

[Griff]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:23 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

Wheeee! 

 

Further proof a lot of otherwise knowledgeable people don't know proper nomenclature... or worse... are really despicable, pandering to the great, ignorant masses... 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Folks tell me there's no such thing as a .475 Ruger either. 

[Baltimore Ed]

Got some cratered primers there Three Foot. Your 10 o clock case looks flat too. Hot loads or about normal for a .475? 

[Three Foot Johnson]

51 minutes ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Got some cratered primers there Three Foot. Your 10 o clock case looks flat too. Hot loads or about normal for a .475? 

Well, first, there's no such thing as a .475 Ruger. Here's the story -

 

When I bought my first .480 Ruger SRH in May of 2001 (551 prefix), it was roll marked ".475 Ruger", and the dealer had a fifty round plain cardboard box marked ".475 Ruger" in black letters. He said, "It's the same thing, just not loaded so hot"... they were pretty hot! From what I can find out, these were actually proof rounds and never meant to leave the lab, but they did, somehow. Some of the brass still shows traces of red paint or dye in the letters/numbers, which is indicative of factory proof rounds. Before the ammo actually went on the market, Bill Ruger/Hornady originally named it the .475 Ruger, but Bill wanted it changed it to .480 Ruger before it hit the market, because it sounded bigger. These are the only .480's I've ever seen with a .475 Ruger head stamp. It gets a little weirder though - folks have told me I'm full of crap about acquiring it May, 2001, claiming the SRH wasn't even marketed in .480 until sometime in 2002. Ruger's own serial number lookup on their Web site supports this, and says this s/n wasn't shipped until 2002. But wait, there's more! That first one wouldn't hit the side of a barn - from the inside! I returned it, and Ruger sent me a new one (552 prefix) on November 8, 2001, roll marked ".480 Ruger", which Ruger's site confirms was shipped in 2001. It looks to me like I may have somehow originally purchased a prototype revolver with prototype proof rounds. The .475 Ruger roll mark undoubtedly would have added some value to a collector - maybe a little, maybe a lot, but it's a completely moot argument because it went back to Ruger twenty one years ago and was probably destroyed.

[Rip Snorter]

8 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Well, first, there's no such thing as a .475 Ruger. Here's the story -

 

When I bought my first .480 Ruger SRH in May of 2001 (551 prefix), it was roll marked ".475 Ruger", and the dealer had a fifty round plain cardboard box marked ".475 Ruger" in black letters. He said, "It's the same thing, just not loaded so hot"... they were pretty hot! From what I can find out, these were actually proof rounds and never meant to leave the lab, but they did, somehow. Some of the brass still shows traces of red paint or dye in the letters/numbers, which is indicative of factory proof rounds. Before the ammo actually went on the market, Bill Ruger/Hornady originally named it the .475 Ruger, but Bill wanted it changed it to .480 Ruger before it hit the market, because it sounded bigger. These are the only .480's I've ever seen with a .475 Ruger head stamp. It gets a little weirder though - folks have told me I'm full of crap about acquiring it May, 2001, claiming the SRH wasn't even marketed in .480 until sometime in 2002. Ruger's own serial number lookup on their Web site supports this, and says this s/n wasn't shipped until 2002. But wait, there's more! That first one wouldn't hit the side of a barn - from the inside! I returned it, and Ruger sent me a new one (552 prefix) on November 8, 2001, roll marked ".480 Ruger", which Ruger's site confirms was shipped in 2001. It looks to me like I may have somehow originally purchased a prototype revolver with prototype proof rounds. The .475 Ruger roll mark undoubtedly would have added some value to a collector - maybe a little, maybe a lot, but it's a completely moot argument because it went back to Ruger twenty one years ago and was probably destroyed.

I wonder how much the issue was influenced by the 475 Linebaugh?  A friend has one he'd like me to buy.  Just doesn't seem like something I need - I actually have a couple of rifles.

[Three Foot Johnson]

1 minute ago, Rip Snorter said:

I wonder how much the issue was influenced by the 475 Linebaugh?  A friend has one he'd like me to buy.  Just doesn't seem like something I need - I actually have a couple of rifles.

I have a five shot .475 Linebaugh built on a .45 Ruger Bisley Blackhawk frame by Ben Forkin/Forkin Custom Classics in White Sulphur Springs, MT probably in the late 1990's. Oof... it's a handful - I used to enjoy that kind of masochistic stuff, but not so much anymore. 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

3 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I have a five shot .475 Linebaugh built on a .45 Ruger Bisley Blackhawk frame by Ben Forkin/Forkin Custom Classics in White Sulphur Springs, MT probably in the late 1990's. Oof... it's a handful - I used to enjoy that kind of masochistic stuff, but not so much anymore. 

Whew! thought I was the only one!

Regards

   

Gateway Kid

Former hand cannon lover

Head says Yeah! Wrists say No Way!

[Three Foot Johnson]

The Linebaugh in full recoil. Ouch.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

And we always seem to forget about the 45 Auto Rim which would fit the Driftwood's original description to a tee.  I.E. 45 ACP with a rim.   Have a great day all.  And Shifty  Bob if you're coming to EOT - I could probably part with 150 45 Colt (aka Long Colt) for you and you alone.

[Major E A Sterner #12916]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:23 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

Wheeee! 

 

The Wax bullets were marketed by Colt, The originator of the .45 SAA, I would think if the inventor of the Pistol and ammo calls it .45 LONG Colt, then that pretty much settles it.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

1 hour ago, Major E A Sterner #12916 said:

The Wax bullets were marketed by Colt, The originator of the .45 SAA, I would think if the inventor of the Pistol and ammo calls it .45 LONG Colt, then that pretty much settles it.

If you look at all of the SAA's made by Colt , they are NOT marked .45 Long Colt - but 45 Colt. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

We could settle this argument for good if we just called it what it is, the Colt .45-40.

["Big Boston"]

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend. So it is with the 45 Long Colt. 

 

We use many incorrect terms or descriptors, heck, each of us on this forum has a cowboy name, how many Williams are called Bill, how many Nathans are called Nate. 

 

I have two 1873 rifles, both built by Uberti, one is chambered in 45LC the other is a 45COLT. I like both of them, even if both are historically incorrect as the 1873 was never chambered in 45 Colt or 45 Long Colt. The 44 WCF was called a 44-40 so often, the cartridge is now known as the 44-40. same with the 38WCF. 

 

My take on it, let it go, move on, not a hill worth dying on.

 

One thing I do know, when I tell someone I shoot a 45 Long Colt, nobody asks me if it's a Glock or a 1911. 

 

BB

[Major E A Sterner #12916]

4 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

If you look at all of the SAA's made by Colt , they are NOT marked .45 Long Colt - but 45 Colt. 

You missed my point, If the originator can call the cartridge the .45 Long Colt, that's good enough for me to accept that nomenclature if someone refers to it as such,What does it matter really? Call it .45 Colt or .45 Long Colt, we all know what cartridge they are referring to. Life is too short to worry about the small things in life.