New Ruling: Leaving loading table?

[Roger Rapid]

In a recent video referring to the current SHB (Jan '22), Branchwater Jack mentions that one of the current changes is that ... "the shooter can't leave the loading table." It has been a long-time ruling that the shooter can't leave LT with loaded guns (except to go directly to the stage), but I don't see anything in the current SHB about shooters with no guns not being able to leave table, go to their cart, etc.? Am I missing the new rule in the SHB?

RR

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

"Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are called to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage by the Timer Operator or Expeditor."

 

Locally we were told this means if you leave the loading table without being called to the line by the TO or expeditor it is a stage DQ.

 

 

 

 

[Roger Rapid]

LEP...

Hope you are good...

Yes, but the SHB ruling states "with a loaded firearm..." Your local ruling is different. Is it specific to your club?

..RR

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/SHB 2022 edits - A.pdf

 

Quote

Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are  p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶e̶d̶i̶n̶g̶called to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage by the Timer Operator or Expeditor"

SHB p.28 

 

Not being able to leave the loading area with loaded firearms did not change. That was previously in the shooter's handbook. 

 

What was added was the specific guidance that you cannot leave (with loaded firearms) unless specifically called by the TO or the expeditor.

 

Meaning, if a competitor hears the previous shooter finish the stage, and then starts to mosey to the stage without being called, that instance is now explicitly called out as a penalty.

[Roger Rapid]

Branchwater Jack - thanks for clarification.

 

And, just to be clear, it is still legal for a shooter step away from the loading table WITHOUT GUNS such as to go back to his/her cart to get or return something?

 

RR

 

[Assassin]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/SHB 2022 edits - A.pdf

 

 

Not being able to leave the loading area with loaded firearms did not change. That was previously in the shooter's handbook. 

 

What was added was the specific guidance that you cannot leave (with loaded firearms) unless specifically called by the TO or the expeditor.

 

Meaning, if a competitor hears the previous shooter finish the stage, and then starts to mosey to the stage without being called, that instance is now explicitly called out as a penalty.

Hasn't that always been the rule. One doesn't move from the loading area until called by the TO.

[Flying W Ramrod]

It's always been a penalty situation if you leave the LT with guns. 

Until the 2022 clarifications, heading up to the stage without being called had no penalty. Now it does.

It's based on:

ROI page 25 - 3. The TO calls the next Shooter to the line

ROI page 26 - At the 1st shot of the shooter on the line, the XPO calls the next shooter from the Loading Table to the 0n-deck position.

 

and

 

ROII page 5 - When the stage is clear, targets have been reset, spotters are in position, and it is safe to do so, the TO or Expeditor will call the next shooter to the line. Use of phrases that are positive and cheerful to call the shooter always sets a good tone for the stage and may relax a nervous shooter...Shooters should not be allowed to walk onto the course of fire for the purposes of engaging the stage without being called by the TO or the Expeditor.

 

It's all about safety. the TO/XPO know the status of the stage and if it's safe to stage guns.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

23 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Branchwater Jack - thanks for clarification.

 

And, just to be clear, it is still legal for a shooter step away from the loading table WITHOUT GUNS such as to go back to his/her cart to get or return something?

 

RR

 

Yes.

Ex: forgets something on your cart...say shotty shells.

You leave your loaded pistols with your loaded long guns on the LT and retrieve your shells.

Done all the time.

 

This is not what the ruleing is about.

It is about the 'stage jumper'...the one who goes up to the stage/fireing line before being called by the TO.

(If XO calls you frlm the loading table to XO position... go. But Do NOT go up to stage guns untill the TO tells you to.

 

As I understand it.

 

[Tucker McNeely]

1 minute ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Yes.

Ex: forgets something on your cart...say shotty shells.

You leave your loaded pistols with your loaded long guns on the LT and retrieve your shells.

Done all the time.

 

This is not what the ruleing is about.

It is about the 'stage jumper'...the one who goes up to the stage/fireing line before being called by the TO.

(If XO calls you frlm the loading table to XO position... go. But Do NOT go up to stage guns untill the TO tells you to.

 

As I understand it.

 

Couldn’t have said it better.  I concur.

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

What was added was the specific guidance that you cannot leave (with loaded firearms) unless specifically called by the TO or the expeditor.

 

Meaning, if a competitor hears the previous shooter finish the stage, and then starts to mosey to the stage without being called, that instance is now explicitly called out as a penalty.

 

This was a problem?

[Singin' Sue 71615]

4 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

This was a problem?

Unfortunately, yes.

Some posses 'pushed' so as to get done sooner, ect.

I have been called up by TO while folks were still setting targets and was told to "come on up, just hold your muzzles up."

 

I also don't care for the posse behind coming up with their guns, loading up for their stage...while our last shooter is still shooting!!!!

 

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

So, what is the penalty? 10 sec. procedure, 10 sec. minor safety ? That isn't stated anywhere that I can find.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

13 minutes ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

So, what is the penalty? 10 sec. procedure, 10 sec. minor safety ? That isn't stated anywhere that I can find.

Stage DQ.

 

 Randy 

[Ya Big Tree]

46 minutes ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

So, what is the penalty? 10 sec. procedure, 10 sec. minor safety ? That isn't stated anywhere that I can find.

 

Page 28 SHB

Any competitor’s failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures will result
in a penalty of a Stage Disqualification.
- Leaving the unloading table without clearing all firearms will result in the
penalty being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed.
Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms
after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage
Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.
- Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm
unless they are called to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage by
the Timer Operator or Expeditor.

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

42 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Stage DQ.

 

 Randy 

Wow, seems harsh but oh well, rules is rules. Thanks for pointing that out to me. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

So what is the direction for a shooter who, in loading a firearm, experiences sudden illness, like an episode of Vertigo, or discovers a gun malfunction, preventing him/her completing loading.  For example, a broken trigger spring on a 73 that prevents the hammer being dropped.  Must shooter seek direction from the T.O. before proceeding to the ULT to unload guns, or does the LTO have authority?  Can the competitor transport the guns himself or must a match official transport them? 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Page 16 Shooters Handbook. Firearms malfunction. Can’t cut and paste.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

If a competitor has a firearm malfunction that cannot be cleared during the course
of fire, the shooter may not leave the firing line until the firearm has been cleared. A Match Disqualification penalty will be assessed to the shooter if they leave the firing line with the malfunctioning firearm unless under the direct supervision of a Match official.

 

Got it copied. 

 

Firing Line: Loading table to unloading table. Declare the malfunction, move to unloading table?

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 hours ago, Stump Water said:

This was a problem?

 

4 hours ago, Assassin said:

Hasn't that always been the rule.

 

Personally, I think this revision is just a case of them removing all doubt.

 

Last year we went through three pages or so here on the wire whether or not there was grounds for a reshoot in the event that the timer didn't pick up the last couple of shots. Some said, well it doesn't specifically state that you get a reshoot for that, and you can't assume that the timer malfunction just because it didn't pick up the last shot, so, no reshoot, and we're fine with them getting by with some free time. They closed that loophole in this revision, too.

 

The way that this rule was previously written, there was a little bit of interpretation as some would argue the shooter was allowed to sashay up to the line whenever they wanted as long as they were the next competitor. Now a lot of us assumed or put other bits together to say no you couldn't just go up until you were called, but before this revision, that one rule didn't specify that. Now, they remove all that doubt.

 

[Hoss]

My guess is this would be for the chronic offenders. I’d think a one time deal would likely merit a warning. 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

One example. We shoot a stage called the mine that requires downrange movement of the shooter, TO, Counters, Target setters and pickers. Shooter finished the stage, muzzles up, go to the unloading table. TO calls downrange for this stage(berms). Targets are reset and brass picked up. Returns to the starting area with people downrange. Next shooter is standing the with loaded guns. Not called to the line. Multiple infraction there, but now it is clarified, SDQ.

[Totes Magoats]

It’s going to be interesting. A shooter goes to an annual and not familiar with Posse members. A counter yells Next Shooter and the poor guys gets a SDQ not knowing it wasn’t the TO.  Stage designs don’t always allow you to see the TO. 

 

Totes

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Another rule we didn't need.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

1 hour ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

One example. We shoot a stage called the mine that requires downrange movement of the shooter, TO, Counters, Target setters and pickers. Shooter finished the stage, muzzles up, go to the unloading table. TO calls downrange for this stage(berms). Targets are reset and brass picked up. Returns to the starting area with people downrange. Next shooter is standing the with loaded guns. Not called to the line. Multiple infraction there, but now it is clarified, SDQ.

Seen that a time or two!

Make sure the one you are being called by has timer in hand!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Happens sometimes, the next shooter starts coming up without being called. If I'm the TO I stop them and tell them, "I didn't call you". There can be something not cleared on the stages, the brass picker can still be there etc. Lots of things can happen. Just chill out and wait till you're called!! SMDH 

[Tn Tombstone]

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

7 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

How does one earn a penalty if they themselves did not directly cause the problem? 

 

Stan

[Patagonia Pete]

Oh ... he was already DQ'ed before taking the first step towards the line ... (due to) not letting the person next to him (at the loading table) check his guns (LTO)!!! 

AND ...

Dispite everyone yelling at him ... trying to hold him back ... he still had to fight his way to the line so that they could check for a live round under the cocked hammer of his rifle?!?!? 

 

[Anvil Al #59168]

44 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

 

 

They better make that very clear at the safety meeting for those that might be visiting from other clubs

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

12 hours ago, Totes Magoats said:

It’s going to be interesting. A shooter goes to an annual and not familiar with Posse members. A counter yells Next Shooter and the poor guys gets a SDQ not knowing it wasn’t the TO.  Stage designs don’t always allow you to see the TO. 

 

Totes

 

IMO...That would be an "appealable" call due to the counter/spotter assuming a function specifically assigned to the Timer Operator.

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

Be nice to know who these clubs are so we don't spend money going there.

 

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

There are a few things that need to be mentioned here.

There are some clubs that do not allow you to leave the loading table with a loaded gun laying on it. You either unload your guns or you have someone get what you need out of our cart for you. Two clubs come to mind

If your guns are laying on the table and something happens at the table, those are your loaded guns laying there and you are still responsible for them. If they fall or sweep someone the call is on you.

 

I really don't want to derail the thread but I have to ask, so what if you're standing there? When I'm standing at the loading table the only time I'm concentrating on my guns is when I'm actively loading them.  Once that's done I've got my eyes closed and am going through the stage in my mind.  There's no way on Earth I'd notice anything happening to the loading table in time to do anything about it.  But you're telling me that if someone knocks the loading table over and causes my guns to fall and sweep someone I get DQ'd??? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Interesting how these threads can go in unexpected directions.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

10 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I really don't want to derail the thread but I have to ask, so what if you're standing there? When I'm standing at the loading table the only time I'm concentrating on my guns is when I'm actively loading them.  Once that's done I've got my eyes closed and am going through the stage in my mind.  There's no way on Earth I'd notice anything happening to the loading table in time to do anything about it.  But you're telling me that if someone knocks the loading table over and causes my guns to fall and sweep someone I get DQ'd??? 

Grab a cookie. 

I think we are getting way outside of the box on this topic.

The rule now clarifies...if you ' go to stage/line of fire/or how ever you word it...if you go 'up' before the TO calls you, it is a SDQ.

We can speculate all other scenerios...and they each would have their own appeal actions to take.

You do kinda go into a 'trance' , don't you...you big old BULL!!!

[Captain Bill Burt]

15 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

Wow, seems harsh but oh well, rules is rules. Thanks for pointing that out to me. 

 

13 hours ago, Hoss said:

My guess is this would be for the chronic offenders. I’d think a one time deal would likely merit a warning. 

I would post a popcorn emoji if I could.