WTC staged round

[Hoss]

Scenario is 10+ 1 rifle. 11th round may be loaded anytime after the beep. As many will do, I staged a round next to rifle, then put it in while picking it up. 
 

shooter stages rifle, places 11th round on loading gate. Is this a “legal” way to stage ammo?

 

 

[G W Wade]

Our clubs up here write the stage for the reloaded is to be done after the first round is fired.  But any time after that.    GW

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, holster cartridge loop, pouch, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions

SHB p.3

 

That depends on the stage instructions.

If in doubt...ASK the TO/PM/MD

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

i don't see why not.  There was a stage at either the Gunsmoke regional or EOT (can't remember which), which had the same instruction.  I loaded the 11th round after the beep and the only difference was that I didn't place it on the gate.  We did not have to take from any type of cartridge carrier.

[John Kloehr]

Safety & Handling Conventions – Rifles

-  Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (NOT the safety notch), with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction (adheres to the 170° rule).

My bold, page 14.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

9 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Safety & Handling Conventions – Rifles

-  Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (NOT the safety notch), with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction (adheres to the 170° rule).

My bold, page 14.

 

What does that have to do with the OP?

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I circumvent that problem by saying that you can reload anytime after the first rifle round goes down range.

Also evens the playing field for those who can load only 10 in the magazine.
And, yes, I say that the reload may be staged, if desired.

--Dawg

[Doc Shapiro]

17 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

I circumvent that problem by saying that you can reload anytime after the first rifle round goes down range.

Also evens the playing field for those who can load only 10 in the magazine.
And, yes, I say that the reload may be staged, if desired.

--Dawg

 

I'm with you on the "reload the rifle any time after the 1st rifle round has been fired".  However, I don't allow a round to be staged.  It must come off the person from an appropriate location as described within the rules.

 

Edited to add that allowing a rifle to be reloaded BEFORE a round has been fired offers a distinct advantage to those who have a rifle that will hold 11 rounds.  Let's try to keep a level playing field for everyone.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

57 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

...  Let's try to keep a level playing field for everyone.

Well...everyone except Spencer shooters.   

But they knew that going in. 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

The question is can the reload be placed on the loading gate of the staged rifle instead of beside it on the prop when the rifle can be loaded any time after the beep.

[Doc Shapiro]

3 minutes ago, Major BS Walker Regulator said:

The question is can the reload be placed on the loading gate of the staged rifle instead of beside it on the prop when the rifle can be loaded any time after the beep.

 

Depends on the stage instructions.  If it just says that the "round can be staged before the beep", and doesn't say where, then yes, that's allowed. 

 

Be specific with stage instructions to remove doubt.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Depends on the stage instructions.  If it just says that the "round can be staged before the beep", and doesn't say where, then yes, that's allowed. 

 

Be specific with stage instructions to remove doubt.

 

If in doubt...ASK the TO/PM/MD.

[Doc Shapiro]

Just now, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

If in doubt...ASK the TO/PM/MD.

 

See, there's the rub.  A general stage instruction to just stage the round may not leave the shooter in doubt.  It doesn't say where to stage it, so the shooter chooses to stage it on the loading gate.  The "if in doubt" part is highly subjective.

 

Now what happens if 3 or 4 shooters do this, and then someone asks and is told no?  Do those 3 or 4 shooters get a "after the fact" penalty?  Have to reshoot the stage?  There's just too much room for problems.  Stage writers need think about how their phrasing is going to be interpreted.

 

Not picking on you PWB, just stating a different view.

Doc

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Simple instructions stating "may be staged on table/prop" should make it clear enough.
That would seem to disallow setting the round on the loading gate of the staged rifle...but there are a few who would throw common sense out the window and argue that "technically" blah, blah, blah...

 

That mindset has resulted in neccesitating such "clarified" instructions as "Start with hands on hat (hat must be worn on head).

 

 

[Totes Magoats]

What if the shooter that staged the round on the loading gate was the MD?  

 

Totes

 

no, it wasn’t me, I was the TO.  No call as the stage instructions stated “round can be staged”. 

[La Sombra]

42 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

Totes

 

no, it wasn’t me, I was the TO.  No call as the stage instructions stated “round can be staged”. 

Oh the THSS shoot at the Green Mountain Rangers. 

La Sombra

[Dusty Devil Dale]

It's all about carefully writing what you want done in the stage instructions.  Do that job carelessly and you get to deal with issues like this.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Stage writing has EVERYTHING to do with being able to accept the outcome of your "chosen" style of stage writing.

 

Some writers are loose with their instructions and IF a shooter finds a LEGAL method to engage a stage differently that the stage writer envisioned - that is NOT on the shooter. 

That is either a latitude the stage writer is open to allowing or a failure of the stage writing itself; the stage writer can applaud and encourage the creativity of the shooter or they can rephrase and elaborate their instructions further next time.

 

But it is NEVER the shooters job to decipher the stage writers intention - it is the stage writers job to convey CLEARLY and COMPLETELY their intention.

In the absense of that clear and complete conveyance - any LEGAL engagement is legal.

 

The stage writer can then choose to modify or not their future writing based on their desires and desired outcomes.

 

You can put your shooters in the area, in a box or in a straight jacket.

 

All depends on how disciplined you're demanding or how creative you're allowing - but boxes and straight jackets demand many more words and a larger expenditure of ink.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

In the absense of that clear and complete conveyance - any LEGAL engagement is legal.

@Creeker, SASS #43022

 

That doesn't always work out as planned.

Consider this scenario:

 

Stage layout

                                                                                       R  R   R  R  R

 

 

                                        SG SG SG SG P P P P P

 

 

                                                                    [TABLE]                                                 

                                                                              (2)

                                                                                                 (1)[

 

Start STANDING BEHIND THE WAGON with RIFLE at "Cowboy port-arms" 

Engage RIFLE targets sweeping L>R twice

From TABLE Engage PISTOL targets sweeping L>R twice

KD shotgun targets

 

80+ shooters (including 24 Stage Drivers and the morning wave of posses) had already shot the stage starting at location (1)

First posse of the afternoon shift convinced the 2nd shift Stage Driver that "technically" location (2) (10+ feet from (1)) was "behind the wagon".

 

Legal or NOT?

 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Not legal.

My rant about stage writing is not a requirement that the stage writer define and explain every term - that is a ridiculous burden.

 

I will acknowledge that the stage writing in the PWB example is poorly phrased stage writing - and GOOD on whatever shooter recognized the poor turn of phrase and thought of the possible options of that phrasing.

 

BUT...

Context does matter - There is a HUGE difference between a restriction left unsaid and a shooter deliberately choosing to be obtuse and disregard the meaning of words and terms as used within our game.  

Within the CONTEXT of the instruction the rifle shooting position is BEHIND the wagon relative to its FIRING line position - not relative to the front and rear of the wagon construct itself (referenced correctly as LEFT and RIGHT).

 

Requiring a shooter to discern the stage writers intent in the ABSENCE of instruction is much different than allowing a shooter to ignore or redefine the intent of a poorly phrased instruction.

 

One is gamey - one is Spirit of the Game.

 

Side note:

Within the CONTEXT of our game - I would contend all the folks that shot the stage from position 1 were in the wrong position as well.

 

Behind and infront should always be in relation to firing line - left and right are in relation to positions along the firing line.

 

So behind the wagon WITHIN the context of our game would be wagon between the shooter and targets.

Think indian/ bandit attack from the movies - you would of used the wagon as a barrier between youself and hostiles - and when you yelled "get behind the wagons"; you would not run out in the open at the tail of the wagon exposed to the hostile attack.

 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

As far as the OP: that was a creative, legal solution.  Sometimes, we "more experienced" shooters get in a rut with our thinking and when somebody comes along with a solution we never imagined, our minds get blown.  However, that in itself shouldn't disallow their action.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Not legal.

My rant about stage writing is not a requirement that the stage writer define and explain every term - that is a ridiculous burden.

 

I will acknowledge that the stage writing in the PWB example is poorly phrased stage writing - and GOOD on whatever shooter recognized the poor turn of phrase and thought of the possible options of that phrasing.

...

 

In the example cited, the Stage Driver (who had shot the stage as intended the previous day) ALLOWED half of that posse to start at (2).

A passing Range Master noticed the ERROR and asked WHY they were being allowed to do so.

Those shooters were required to RESHOOT the stage.

 

This was at End of Trail - mid 90's

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In the example cited, the Stage Driver (who had shot the stage as intended the previous day) ALLOWED half of that posse to start at (2).

A passing Range Master noticed the ERROR and asked WHY they were being allowed to do so.

Those shooters were required to RESHOOT the stage.

 

This was at End of Trail - mid 90's

I would agree with that reshoot call.

I do see a large difference between the absence of instruction and the presence of VAGUE instruction.

 

The vague instruction does inform there is an expectation of behavior - and that does place some burden on the shooter to understand that intent.

 

But when left unsaid - the absence of an instruction does not require the shooter to determine an unsaid intent.

 

And lastly in a major competition - the requirement for a level and consistent playing field outweighs the latitude of creativity that is not being specifically allowed. 

 

But this all stesses the need for quality, consistent, understandable communication with universal terms/ definitions.

 

I have often thought about writing a stage writing primer (even have a couple chapters bullet pointed and outlined already) maybe I should throw it together and see if it gains traction.

 

Considering I am no longer writing matches or running a club; maybe this could be a late career contribution to the game.

 

[John Kloehr]

12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

What does that have to do with the OP?

 

Looking back, I have no idea why I read "loading gate" as "carrier." But that is what happened. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 minute ago, John Kloehr said:

Looking back, I have no idea why I read "loading gate" as "carrier." But that is what happened. 

We have all done it.

Shoot, I have had SASS Wire heated debates with posts, rebuttals, clever retorts and scathing comebacks just to realize that I wasn't discussing the same topic.

 

As the late Gilda Radner used to say on Weekend Update; receiving clarification after a long rant on a given subject...

"Oh?  Nevermind"

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

43.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

26 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

43.

43 is King Richard and even suited is a highly questionable starting hand in poker.

 

42 is the answer to life, the universe and everything.  

Unless it is offsuit - then it's an even more questionable starting hand.  

[Captain Bill Burt]

It just seems like the answer to life, the universe and everything should be a prime number.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

17 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It just seems like the answer to life, the universe and everything should be a prime number.

Being an author is just like stage writing - they write something WRONG and now we have to live with it.

But since Hitch Hikers Guide is nearly perfect - I give Mr. Adams a pass.

(excepting the poetry of Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings, Azgoths and the Vogons {and the big budget movie adaptation})

 

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

If the extra round may be staged on the loading gate, why not start it into the gate, or .  It’s partially even “stage” it in the magazine?  Placing the round on the loading gate doesn’t seem like staging the round to me.  It appears to be dangerously close ro a Spirit of the Game violation.

 

Usually a rifle reload is from the body, not partially loaded into the rifle.  We often allow shooters, mostly new shooters who don’t have all their gear, to stage ammo or even guns on a prop (table).  Staging the round on the loading gate is not staging it.  It’s partially loading the gun.  
 

Looks like “illegally acquired ammunition” to me.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

on stages with an 11th rifle round I always write instructions like this (first comes shooting order for 10 rounds, then load and tell shooter what to shoot with this):

 

Position 3: Rifle            (1,2,3,4,3,2,1,2,3,4) then load round and engage T1  

[Dirty Dog Doug]

we have done both  load a round after the beep or load the round after at least one round is fired 

round taken from belt most of the time 

pistol reload we need to remember to not to uncock the hammer but fire as soon as the loading gate was closed 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

28 minutes ago, Dirty Dog Doug said:

we have done both  load a round after the beep or load the round after at least one round is fired 

round taken from belt most of the time 

pistol reload we need to remember to not to uncock the hammer but fire as soon as the loading gate was closed 

 

Decocking during/after a reload is allowed as it is not being done "to avoid a penalty".

[Matthew Duncan]

2 hours ago, Dirty Dog Doug said:

…load a round after the beep….

 

Do you mean immediately after the beep or anytime after the beep?