Tulsey, SASS#11236 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 I found some balloon 44 Special and 44 Russian cases in a can I had sorted out years ago. Could I safely use them for black powder reloading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Dot, 14911 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 I wouldn’t. Collector value. I would try to sell them and buy modern brass for reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, two dot said: I wouldn’t. Collector value. I would try to sell them and buy modern brass for reloading. THIS ^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Of course you can, if they are in good condition. Just be aware that Balloon Head cases have a little bit more internal capacity than modern solid head cases. So the powder charge you are used to putting into your solid head Black Powder loads may not quite fill up the Balloon Head cases as much. This can result in a little bit of air space between the bullet and the powder charge. Be sure you put in enough Black Powder powder so the bullet compresses it between 1/16" -1/8" when seated. I cut an old Remington Balloon Head 45 Colt case in half on the left, and a modern Winchester Solid Head 45 Colt case on the right. This demonstrates how the Balloon head case has a little bit more case capacity than the modern, Solid Head case. By the way, Balloon Head cases were not limited to the Black Powder era, they were being used well into the Smokeless era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Just keep a good inspection on the primer pockets. I shot these quit a bit until I finally had a problem with one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brushy Creek Bill, SASS # 49466 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/24/2022 at 8:25 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: Of course you can, if they are in good condition. Just be aware that Balloon Head cases have a little bit more internal capacity than modern solid head cases. So the powder charge you are used to putting into your solid head Black Powder loads may not quite fill up the Balloon Head cases as much. This can result in a little bit of air space between the bullet and the powder charge. Be sure you put in enough Black Powder powder so the bullet compresses it between 1/16" -1/8" when seated. I cut an old Remington Balloon Head 45 Colt case in half on the left, and a modern Winchester Solid Head 45 Colt case on the right. This demonstrates how the Balloon head case has a little bit more case capacity than the modern, Solid Head case. By the way, Balloon Head cases were not limited to the Black Powder era, they were being used well into the Smokeless era. So, what's the easiest way to detect the balloon head cases? From the picture you posted it appears that there is no grove forward of the rim of the cartridge. Is this the way you can tell the difference or is it something else? Would hate to get them mixed up with modern cases. Also, does the balloon head case fit the regular shell holder? Thanks, Brushy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Shine a light down and peek inside. You should be able to see the depressed area around the primer pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Brushy Creek Bill, SASS # 49466 said: So, what's the easiest way to detect the balloon head cases? From the picture you posted it appears that there is no grove forward of the rim of the cartridge. Is this the way you can tell the difference or is it something else? Would hate to get them mixed up with modern cases. Also, does the balloon head case fit the regular shell holder? Thanks, Brushy. IIRC, that's an anomaly of the 45 Colt case. It was introduced without a extractor groove as the Colt SAA uses a extractor rod inside the case to push them from the chamber. It wasn't until other guns began to be chambered in 45 Colt that it needed a groove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 I have some .38 S&W cases with balloon head cases. The packaging they came in says they were loaded with smokeless powder, and when I broke them down to reload them with fresh powder and primers, sure enough, it was smokeless. (Vintage partial boxes, empty brass, or old ammo with the .38 Colt NP headstamp. In all cases, for far less than a box of new ammo was going at the time.) Assuming they are in good condition, no reason why you can't use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Howdy Again The so called 'extractor groove' on 45 Colt and other pistol caliber brass is a relatively recent development. As stated, since spent cases were originally poked out of the cylinder from the inside with the ejector rod, there was no need for an 'extractor groove'. Here is a photo of a bunch of antique 45 Colt rounds from my cartridge collection. Notice only the modern round on the far right has a groove. Modern SAAMI Spec calls for the rim of 45 Colt to be .512 in diameter. Some of these rounds have rims much smaller in diameter than that. The rim on the round with the copper colored bullet is only .503 in diameter. The round next to the modern round is the round developed for the Army for a double action 45 that used an extractor. That rim is .538 in diameter. The round all the way on the left is one of the original copper cased, folded rim, Benet primed 45 Colt rounds. The rim is only .504 in diameter, just enough to keep the blow from the firing pin from shoving the round into the chamber. The crimp just above the base of the round is what holds the internal priming in place. I suspect most of these rounds are loaded in Balloon Head cases. The Balloon Head case I sectioned came from this box. Yes, somebody spelled Balloon incorrectly, not me. You can see down inside some of them and see the depressed area around the coupler pocket. The rims on this brass are only .505 in diameter. I have a couple of boxes of old Balloon Head 45s like this, I keep meaning to see if I can stuff the proverbial 40 grains of Black Powder into them. My normal load in modern solid head brass is more like about 35.5 grains. Yes, because the rims are a little bit smaller they fit into a standard 45 Colt shell holder just fine. At least they do in my Hornady Lock & Load 45 Colt shell plate. Because they were designed for the extractor claw of a rifle, the Winchester Center Fire (WCF) family of cartridges had larger diameter rims so the extractor could get a good grip on them. Nominal rim diameter of 44-40 and 38-40 is .525. However, notice there is no 'extractor groove' on these old 44-40 rounds. The extractor of a rifle grabs them just fine. The same with these old 38-40 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Technically they are Solid Head cases with a Semi-Balloon Primer Pocket. This is what might confuse and mislead folks to think they are a weak case. The 45 Colt Folded Head case was weak even with black powder loads. Once the Solid Head was introduced, the cases were much stronger, although the semi-balloon primer pocket cases were not as strong as the solid-head solid-web type that we see today. The 44-40 always used a Solid Head, Semi Balloon Head case from it's inception. However, over the years the balloon pocket became smaller until eventually it was a full solid-web design. As far as pressures created, I found it interesting that the older 44-40 balloon head cases produced much higher black powder pressures than todays solid web cases. Thus older balloon head cases with black powder created higher pressures compared with using (volume to volume) early smokeless powders (Dupont #2) of that time frame. Although Winchester's first 44-40 box does not note the solid head. the second design does. From 1874 to 1876 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.