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Where Do You Get Deep-Grooved Black Powder 45 Colt Bullets?


Mountain Man Gramps

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I've been trying to locate a source of true black powder bullets for my .45 Colt 1858 Uberti New Army Pistols.  I'd like to avoid casting them but I can if needed.   So far every place that  claims they have black powder bullets has bullets that have narrow, shallow grooves filled with what looks like smokeless lube.  I'm looking for genuine black powder bullets, lubed or not.  By that I mean wide deep grooves and hopefully more than one groove.  Weight wise, I'd like something in the 200-250 grain range.  Any suggestions?  As a backup, what mould would you recommend?

 

Thanks, MMG

 

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Springfield Slim sells big lube bullets that hold lots of BP-friendly lube.

Been using them for years.

Both the PRS 250 and the JP200 work well in cartridges

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Also, Dick Dastardly sells a 210 grain Big Lube, originally designed for the ROA, but it should work with your Remmie as a percussion gun 

http://www.biglube.com/BulletMolds.aspx?ItemID=09d6fdda-c105-4c87-b269-68ebfdaba982

--Dawg

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Also, don't overlook the EPP-UG -- it is a true black powder bullet that emulates a round ball in percussion or cartridges.
It is only 150 grains, but works well as a percussion bullet, a cartridge bullet, and in 45 caliber muzzleloaders.

Carries lotsa BP-friendly lube

--Dawg

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For casting my own and using real back powder, I like the RCBS 45-225-CAS.  Hold plenty of lube for the trip down my 24-¼" 45 Colt chambered 1873 or 1860 Henry.  For the pistols, I much prefer to use APP 3F and a standard 160 grain bullet, either lubed with regular lube or powder coated.  The 160s are available from several makers, I usually get mine from Badman Bullets.

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PLUS ONE for Prairie Dawg

 

Springfield Slim is The "Go To" for BP bullets.

 

PLUS ONE for Griff (Except)

 

I currently shoot APP both in handguns and rifles.  In handguns I shoot 130Gr Barnstormer bullets from Shootin Fox and 180Gr RNFP From Scarlett, Missouri Bullet and Badman.  I should probably order more 180s before Spring

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Howdy

 

Piling on for Springfield Slim and his Big Lube bullets.

 

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

 

The Big Lube family of bullets all feature one gigantic lube groove that carries enough soft, BP compatible. bullet lube to keep even a rifle bore coated with lube for its entire length, eliminating the need for extra lube cookies or swabbing a barrel out to keep hard fouling from forming.

 

Years ago when I was first loading 45 Colt and 44-40 with Black Powder my experience mirrored yours. Just about all of the "Black Powder" bullets available simply did not carry enough soft BP compatible lube. Usually OK for a pistol length barrel, but definitely inadequate for a rifle barrel.

 

I used to pan lube standard bullets with BP compatible lube, and add all kinds of lube cookies and other stuff to keep enough lube in the bore.

 

Completely stopped doing that once I discovered the Big Lube family.

 

If you want to cast your own you can order molds from Dick Dastardly at

 

http://www.biglube.com/

 

I prefer the PRS 250 for 45 Colt, and the Mav-Dutchaman 200 grain for 44-40. For 45 Schofield I use what is now the J/P 45-210, although it was 200 grains when I designed it way back when.

 

If you buy bullets from Slim, he lubes them with his own mixture of BP bullet lube which works just fine.

 

I used to cast my own, but these days I buy my BP bullets from Slim to keep the lead count down in my blood.

 

Here is a visual aid. On the left is the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman 200 grain bullet, stripped of lube to show how big the lube groove is, and full of lube, plus one of my BP 44-40 reloads.  Same thing with the Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullet on the right with one of my BP 45 Colt reloads.

 

pmHpBNt7j

 

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Thank you everyone for your input. Needless to say you’ve solved my problem. Driftwood, I cut-and-pasted your response into my OneNote CAS page.  It gave me all I need to know..

 

The first and only time I shot my 1858’s, I discovered one lube wad and enough BP (31 grains) to fill the brass topped with a 250 grain coated bullet resulted in both guns freezing before the end of the fifth stage.  I had squirt moose milk down the barrel and pulled a bore snake through each barrel after every stage, but I did nothing to the cylinder and cylinder pin. The cylinders froze and the trigger got so hard to pull (probably because of the cylinders) that I dare not pull the trigger any harder.  So I stopped mid-stage and called a gun malfunction for the rest of the match.

 

A couple of the cowboys told me that 31 grains of BP was too much and I should use about 20 grains and filler to top it off.  But that probably wouldn’t have prevented the huge fouling problem without the bullet solution. Your responses gave me rest of the solution. Thanks everyone!

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23 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

The first and only time I shot my 1858’s, I discovered one lube wad and enough BP (31 grains) to fill the brass topped with a 250 grain coated bullet resulted in both guns freezing before the end of the fifth stage.  I had squirt moose milk down the barrel and pulled a bore snake through each barrel after every stage, but I did nothing to the cylinder and cylinder pin. The cylinders froze and the trigger got so hard to pull (probably because of the cylinders) that I dare not pull the trigger any harder.  So I stopped mid-stage and called a gun malfunction for the rest of the match.

 

Howdy Again

 

I just reread your post and saw you are talking about the 1858 Remington.

 

First off, we are talking about shooting the Remingtons with cartridges in a conversion cylinder, yes?

 

Even if you are talking about shooting them as Cap & Ball revolvers, in my not so humble opinion, the 1858 Remington has a major design flaw.

 

The front of the cylinder of the 1858 Remington does not have a raised gas collar.

 

From left to right in this photo, we are looking at the front of a Remington 1858 cartridge conversion cylinder, a Remington 1875 cartridge revolver cylinder, and a Colt Single Action Army cylinder. The front of a Remington Cap & Ball cylinder looks the same, it is flat across the front.

 

plxDs81Zj

 

 

 

 

This means the barrel/cylinder gap on a Remington is in a direct line with the front of the cylinder. When a cartridge is fired, the escaping fouling from the b/c gap gets blasted directly onto the cylinder pin. Fouling on the cylinder pin is the main cause of binding with revolvers fired with Black Powder.

 

poqAyz6nj

 

 

 

 

Colt Cap & Ball revolvers also lacked a gas collar on the front of the cylinder, but because the cylinder arbor was a larger diameter than the Remington cylinder pin, and because the Colt had helical clearance grooves cut into the arbor, the Colt could be fired more times than the Remington without fouling building up and binding the cylinder. You will notice I have cut some grooves onto the cylinder pin of this Remington to hold some bore butter. This helps a bit, but is not a perfect solution. By the way, the two Big Lube bullets at the bottom are the 250 grain PRS 45 bullet at the top, and the JP-45-200 at the bottom. The J/P bullet is the one I use in my 45 Schofield loads I usually shoot in my Remmies with their conversion cylinders.

 

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Not a great photo, but notice how the barrel/cylinder gap is at the front of the cylinder of this Colt SAA, but there is a space between the front of the cylinder and the frame.

 

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The space is taken up by the gas collar at the front of the cylinder. The collars on the front of these cylinders, Uberti Cattleman on the left, Ruger 'original model' Vaquero in the center, and Colt SAA on the right, cover the end of the cylinder pin where it emerges from the cylinder. The fouling blasted out of the b/c gap is pretty much restricted to a disk, so a bit of horizontal separation keeps the fouling from being blasted onto the cylinder pin, allowing the revolver to keep shooting longer without binding when fired with Black Powder. If you go back to the first photo you will notice that when Remington put out their cartridge revolver in 1875, they added a collar or bushing to the front of the cylinder.

 

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While I am blabbing away about this, Smith and Wesson were masters at designing a revolver that could shoot Black Powder almost all day long without binding. This is the cylinder of a S&W New Model Number Three. Notice the large bushing pressed into the front of the cylinder.

 

poSQAjJsj

 

 

 

 

When assembled, the extractor rod of the cylinder went inside the hollow cylinder arbor, and the gas collar rode on the outside of the arbor. Notice there are helical clearance grooves cut into the outside of the arbor too.

 

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When assembled, the gas collar shielded the cylinder arbor from fouling blasted out of the b/c gap. I can shoot an antique S&W like this with Black Powder all day long and never experience any binding. (And the problem with the modern reproduction S&W Top Breaks is because they lengthened the cylinders to accommodate longer cartridges such as 45 Colt and 44-40, they shortened the length of the gas collar, which does a poor job shielding the cylinder arbor from fouling blasted out of the b/c gap.)

 

pmFs1o6Bj

 

 

 

 

Anyway, back to the 1858 Remington.

 

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If you are shooting them Cap & Ball, there is a Big Lube bullet designed specifically for that.

 

When I shoot my Remingtons with their cartridge conversion cylinders I shoot them with Black Powder 45 Schofield cartridges loaded with the J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet and about 28.5 grains of FFg Schuetzen. (actual amount of powder needed to achieve 1/16" - 1/8" of compression when the bullet is seated will vary slightly depending on the brand and granulation of powder used. Not all Black Powder weighs the same.)

 

pn3YsGptj

 

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

A couple of the cowboys told me that 31 grains of BP was too much and I should use about 20 grains and filler to top it off.  But that probably wouldn’t have prevented the huge fouling problem without the bullet solution.

 

 

With all due respect, they don't know what they are talking about. Less powder and filler would not solve the problem with the 1858 Remington. It is all about the lack of a gas collar on the front of the cylinder.

 

 

 

 

The beauty of the Remington design is it is so easy to remove the cylinder. No driving wedges out and no pulling the barrel off. Even when shooting my Remmies with Big Lube bullets they do tend to bind up. I use the six chamber R&D cylinders in mine, which have to be removed every time to unload and reload. At the unloading table, while I have the cylinder out of the frame and am dumping out the empties, I wipe off the front of the cylinder and the exposed portion of the cylinder pin with a damp cloth. I also make sure I have loaded up the grooves in the cylinder pin with plenty of bore butter. Doing this every time I unload, along with Big Lube bullets keeps my Remmies running fine through a six stage, or even eight stage match. If you have the cylinders with a loading gate, so you do not have to remove the cylinders to reload, you could still pop the cylinders out and wipe off the front and cylinder pin with a damp rag and make sure the cylinder pins have plenty of bore butter on them.

 

pmETpjBWj

 

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Dr. Driftwood, PhD.,

 

Always enjoyable to read and reread your posts. Thank you for the excellent tutorials. Love 'em all! :D

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A HUGE PLUS ONE for Driftwood you betcha.

 

There are some really good reasons I don't like Remingtons at all.  Smith and Wesson copying Uberti with a 45Colt/44-40 cylinder wasn't real bright either.

 

 

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FWIW, I have been shooting my 2 Remingtons for 4-5 months now with real fG Blackpowder with no problems. I do use a relatively heavy grease on the cylinder pins to try and keep the fouling out of there. And I have been using the 44Slim bullet as it has one of the larger lube grooves in my assortment of bullet molds. And Remington cylinders are pretty easy to pull and re-lube if you do have a problem.

   I usually shoot '72 Opentops in 44-40, shooting duelist, but I have switched to the Remmies and have been shooting 2 handed(the horror!) due to my son almost beating me lately. The Remingtons are heavier and easier for me to keep on point. If this keeps up I may had to load his (smokeless) ammo a bit hotter to slow him down some. :)

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Professor Driftwood, thank you!  An excellent education in the development, care, and use of BP revolvers.  The pictures are a huge help understanding what you're talking about.  I'm thinking about putting my cylinder pins in a lathe and carefully cutting come groves in them.  That S&W New Model Three makes me wonder what mod's I might dare attempt to my Rem 1858's.  And yes, I'm shooting cartridges in conversion cylinders.

 

As far as the amount of black powder, what are your thoughts?  Fill them all the way with black powder or stick to around 20 grains with filler to take up the remaining space?  I just ordered some Big Lube bullets today in both 200 and 250 grain weight.  I figured I give them both a try and see what I like.  I'm using Starline .45 colt brass.

 

Mountain Man Gramps

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9 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Smith and Wesson copying Uberti with a 45Colt/44-40 cylinder wasn't real bright either.

 

Howdy Coffinmaker.

 

Methinks perhaps a slip of the keys. It was Uberti (and ASM) who copied the S&W #3 designs and made the decision not to stretch the frame when they lengthened the cylinders to accept cartridges such as 45 Colt and 44-40.  Originally, all S&W #3 Top Breaks had cylinders 1 7/16" long. This was a perfect length for cartridges such as 44 S&W American,  44 Russian, and 45 Schofield. Later, S&W lengthened the cylinders of some models to 1 9/16" to accommodate longer cartridges such as 44-40 and 38-40. (No S&W Top Break was ever chambered for 45 Colt). When S&W lengthened the cylinders by 1/8" they also lengthened the frame by 1/8" to accommodate their brilliant cylinder design with the nice long gas collar. When Uberti and ASM started making replicas of the Schofield and Russian Models, they chose to chamber them for the more common 45 Colt cartridge, (and 44-40) but chose not to lengthen the frame an appropriate amount. The result was a shorter gas collar (yes there still is one) but it was not long enough to effectively shield the cylinder arbor from BP fouling blasted out of the Barrel/Cylinder gap.

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12 minutes ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

Professor Driftwood, thank you!  An excellent education in the development, care, and use of BP revolvers.  The pictures are a huge help understanding what you're talking about.  I'm thinking about putting my cylinder pins in a lathe and carefully cutting come groves in them.  That S&W New Model Three makes me wonder what mod's I might dare attempt to my Rem 1858's.  And yes, I'm shooting cartridges in conversion cylinders.

 

As far as the amount of black powder, what are your thoughts?  Fill them all the way with black powder or stick to around 20 grains with filler to take up the remaining space?  I just ordered some Big Lube bullets today in both 200 and 250 grain weight.  I figured I give them both a try and see what I like.  I'm using Starline .45 colt brass.

 

 

I don't have a lathe. I cut the grooves you see on the cylinder pin of my old EuroArms Remmie by chucking it in my drill press and holding a file against it while it spun. Caution: don't cut the grooves too deep or you may weaken the pin. There is a guy on The High Road who has a bit more involved procedure for making the cylinder pin of the Remington hold some lube, but I don't recall exactly what it is. I will ask him.

 

When I first started shooting Black Powder in the 45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinders in my Remmies, I was shooting full house 45 Colt Black Powder loads with the 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet on top of a case full of powder. That is the same load I shoot in my Colts. But the grip shape of a Remington is just different enough from a Colt that it was uncomfortable to shoot these loads in the Remington. There is less space between the trigger guard  and the grip of a Remington than there is with a Colt. The result was some serious knuckle whacking of the middle finger from the recoil of the 45 Colt loads. Even when shooting with my pinky under the grip, which is the way I always shoot a single action revolver. This opens up more space between the knuckle and the trigger guard.

 

l also, I felt the the pounding of recoil from my 45 Colt loads might be a bit too much for the frame where the loading lever goes through. The steel is relatively thin there. No scientific evidence those loads would harm the revolver, just my own feeling.

 

pmSwEzL4j

 

 

 

 

That was the genesis of the J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet. At the time, the only Big Lube bullet available for the 45 Colt cartridge was the 250 grain PRS bullet. I designed the J/P 45-200 to be only 200 grains, so there would be less felt recoil than with a 250 grain bullet. I had Lee make up a mold for me, and later the design was incorporated into the Big Lube line up. ( I receive no money from this, it was a gift to the BP cartridge world.)

 

The J/P 45-200 actually does not extend as far into the case as the 250 grain PRS bullet, so there is actually more case capacity when using it and it is possible to stuff in more powder. That was not the intent. I load the J/P 45-200 into 45 Schofield cases, which have less case capacity than 45 Colt.  As I said earlier, I load the J/P 45-200 on top of about 28.5 grains of FFg Schuetzen. I never use fillers. This load works well for me in my Remingtons.  There is less recoil than with my old 45 Colt loads and about 35 or so grains of FFg Schuetzen and a 250 grain bullet. NOTE: not all Black Powder weighs the same. You will have to determine how much of Brand X BP to load to achieve the 1/16" to 1/8" of comprehension that I recommend with Black Powder revolver loads.

 

If you are not familiar with it, the 45 Schofield case has a rim that is larger in diameter than 45 Colt. Nominally .520 as opposed to .512 for 45 Colt. most revolvers can accommodate the larger rim diameter, but some may not. You have not stated what type of conversion cylinders you are using. When I first got them my R&D cylinders could not fit the larger diameter rims of 45 Schofield, so I had a gunsmith open up the counterbores slightly to accept the larger rims. From what I have seen online it appears the current maker of these cylinders has made the counterbores large enough to accept 45 Schofield rims. I have no idea about other brands.

 

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I buy my 45 Schofield brass from Starline. it appears Starline has 45 Schofield in stock now, but you have to buy a minimum of 500 cases.

 

https://www.starlinebrass.com/45-sw-schofield-brass

 

Sometimes MIdway has 45 Schofield brass in stock and you can buy a smaller amount than 500 cases.

 

It looks like Midway has Schofield brass in stock now and you only have to buy 100 cases.

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021322898?pid=210604

 

Lastly, if you decide to go with 45 Colt brass and the 200 grain Big Lube bullet, be aware that as I said you can stuff more powder into the case than with the 250 grain bullet. You will have to decide for yourself whether of not to add some filler. I never use filler, but I don't shoot 45 Colt BP ammo in my Remingtons.

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My conversion cylinders are Taylors.  I have some .45 Colt snap caps in them at the moment and I don't see a lot of extra space around the rims.  I have about 500 Starline .45 Colt cases.  Maybe I'll use my Lee case trimmer to trim them all down to the Scofield case length.  I'll star out with about ten cases before I do a whole lot of them.

 

MMG

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My Opinion.  The Smith Performance Center Schofield doesn't have enough Gas Collar to be worthwhile.  This folks I know who spent the bucks for an honest to goodness Smith & Wesson Schofield have been greatly disappointed with the performance with BP.  Fouling out quickly.  The sample example I had occasion to play with also fouled out in less than two cylinders.  Not exactly swell.

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14 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

My conversion cylinders are Taylors.  I have some .45 Colt snap caps in them at the moment and I don't see a lot of extra space around the rims.  I have about 500 Starline .45 Colt cases.  Maybe I'll use my Lee case trimmer to trim them all down to the Scofield case length.  I'll star out with about ten cases before I do a whole lot of them.

 

So do yours have six chambers the way mine do?

 

Do you have a caliper?

 

You could measure across the counterbores and see if a .520 rim will fit.

 

Nothing wrong with trimming some 45 Colt cases down to 45 Schofield length, but you will notice that the further you trim them the thicker the brass becomes, because that is the way cartridges are formed.

 

Or, you could invest $34.95 and buy 100 from Midway USA. If I wuz you, that is what I would do.

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My cylinders have 6 rounds.  I've read that each chamber is slightly tilted just to be able to fit six 45 Colt cartridges in a .44 cap and ball space.  I measured the inner diameter of the rim opening in the cylinder and it reads 0.538 on both of them. It looks like the Schofeild brass should fit.  That surprises me.

 

I've done some major editing to this entry in this post as I've done more searching so it may read different than it looked a few hours ago.  For one thing, I decided I'm definitely not trimming 500 pieces to make shorter brass.  I'll be using corn meal for filler if I want to cut down from 30 gr of BP.  Maybe it will smell like popcorn when I shoot!  

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That is correct. In order to allow these cylinders to accept six 45 Cot rims without the rims overlapping, the chambers are angled out ever so slightly at the rear. This does not affect accuracy, my Remmies with their 45 Colt conversion cylinders are the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers I own. This is because the chambers are cut very accurately. As a matter of fact, when loading 45 Colt I use one of these cylinders as a cartridge gauge. If a round slips into the chambers of this cylinder, it will easily slip into the more generous chambers of a Colt or Uberti 45.

 

Ken Howell originally designed these six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders and obtained a patent on the angled chamber design. He was the original supplier of these cylinders to Taylors. Later he sold the patent to Taylors so they were the only company that could legally make cylinders with this design. More recently it seems the patent may have expired because Howell is now producing similar cylinders with angled chambers for his own company.

 

Anyway, I'm not surprised that your chambers will accept Schofield rims.

 

If I was you I would buy some Schofield brass from Midway USA and try loading them the same way I do, with no filler. No need to complicate the process and add filler. I use a standard 45 Colt die set that I keep permanently set for Schofield brass to load 45 Schofield ammo. That way I don't have to keep resetting my dies to change between 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.

 

pmpHh263j

 

 

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Quote

If I was you I would buy some Schofield brass from Midway USA and try loading them the same way I do, with no filler. No need to complicate the process and add filler. I use a standard 45 Colt die set that I keep permanently set for Schofield brass to load 45 Schofield ammo. That way I don't have to keep resetting my dies to change between 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.

 

Good advice.  I just ordered some brass and a Lee .45 Schofield die set.  The nice thing about the Lee 3 die set is it comes with the PTX die and shell holder.  I found  out that Hornady discontinued the shell plate for the .45 Schofield!  It's their die plate #41.  If anyone has one they can part with, let me know.  I posted a WTB ad on the SASS Wire Classified page.

 

Thank you again for all your excellent advice everyone, especially Driftwood!

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Or you could always go with Cowboy 45 Special brass and not worry about the filler, nor the larger rims maybe being a problem.

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Or you could always go with Cowboy 45 Special brass and not worry about the filler, nor the larger rims maybe being a problem.

 

True, but the Cowboy Special brass is shorter.  I'm estimating that the 45 Scofield will let me drop about 20 gr of BP, just what I want.  I'm thinking the Cowboy Short will hold too little BP.

 

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10 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

 

True, but the Cowboy Special brass is shorter.  I'm estimating that the 45 Scofield will let me drop about 20 gr of BP, just what I want.  I'm thinking the Cowboy Short will hold too little BP.

 

 

C45S Cowboy Special will hold a little over 20 grains by volume of BP with moderate compression. This will give you a nice load with moderate recoil.

 

I use this load along with a 230 grain bullet in my 1911 for Wild Bunch. Cycles the action with no issues.

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MMG: if you mean too little to make the SASS smoke standard, it works fine.

Sedalia: I use a 260 grain bullet in my 45acp with fffg and it cycles it fine. When I used a 230 I sometimes had failures to cycle properly. Probably me limp wristing it.

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

C45S Cowboy Special will hold a little over 20 grains by volume of BP with moderate compression. This will give you a nice load with moderate recoil.

Yep, I use right at 20gr Schuetzen in C45S with a 200gr Big Lube, nice load. ;)

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Sounds good Jethro.  I returned the Scholfield and ordered some .45 cowboy special.  That way I avoid the shell plate issues.

 

Thanks all for the help,

MMG

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