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Shooting Western Action two handed with pistols?


Quiet Burp

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4 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

Interesting. So the preponderance of evidence that people shot pistols one-handed well into the 20th century, including paintings, drawings, accounts, study of culture and weapons, training manuals, photographs, and even film is not considered valid by you, but the "well, you weren't there" and the complete lack of any evidence IS enough for you to conclude that they did indeed shoot using modern tactics.

 

Those videos were of World War 2 combat training films. Yet you dismiss them outright. You know quite well I wasn't talking about Vietnam and WW2: I was showing you PROOF that people shot pistols, were even trained to do so, well into the 20th century, which in turn utterly vaporizes your fantastical, vapid attempt to claim they shot using modern methods. I realize this is a bitter, jagged pill for you to swallow, but man, have some integrity, will ya?!

 

So, like I said, according to your "mindset", those soldiers, and especially the trainers, all the way into the 20th century, even up to the 1960s, must have been pretty stupid because they didn't naturally take to using a two-handed hold-even with semiautomatic pistols.

 

Anyway, thank you! Seriously, thank you for proving beyond a doubt that this isn't about facts or truth, or evidence for you; it's about ideology. 

 

Just because people shot and trained one handed shooting well into the 20th Century in no way is that proof some cowboys didn't use both hands to shoot, and one of those smart cowboys may have even come up with as you call it Slip Thumbing..... To make the absolute statement that "No One" shot two handed in the Old West is Comical. You are complaining because you apparently have never captured a fastest shooter, overall champion recognition shooting one handed.  Eliminating the Overall Fastest Shooter recognition at matches will only have a couple results, lower our member count and discourage young shooters from joining. Just my two cents. This isn't just about YOU, this is about all of us.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 If a one handed shooter is not happy with their placement in a match, I would suggest practicing. A one handed shooter can beat a two handed shooter.

This is a true statement by the Duelist shooter that just finished 6th Overall at the Alabama State Championship!

By the way, I plan to shoot like he does when I grow up!!

 

Randy

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3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

This is a true statement by the Duelist shooter that just finished 6th Overall at the Alabama State Championship!

By the way, I plan to shoot like he does when I grow up!!

 

Randy

I'm also a duelist and hope to someday shoot as well as both of you gents. I'm just refusing to grow up to do it. :P

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2 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

 

  EoT-1998-0003.jpg

Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, a Hollywood western star, or an appropriate character from fiction.
 

Every SASS member is required to select a shooting alias representative of a character or profession from the Old West or the western film genre.

 

Cowboy Action Shooting is a multi-faceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, pistol caliber lever action rifles, and old time shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, "Old West" style. It is a timed sport in which shooters compete for prestige on a course of different shooting stages.


 
 

Spirit of the Game

As the game of Cowboy Action Shooting™ has evolved, our members have developed and adopted an attitude towards their participation called "The Spirit of the Game." It is a code by which we live.

 

Competing in "The Spirit of the Game" means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You try your best to dress the part, use the appropriate competition tools, and respect the traditions of the Old West. Some folks would call it nothing more than good sportsmanship. We call it "Spirit of the Game."

 

So how is it that at the moment of the actual crux of the whole thing: the competition, the Old West is said to be irrelevant?

 

That's actually a question.

 

That boils back to the point I am making.  The statements you highlight neither make nor disprove the point you are trying to make - they are very vague and open to a spectrum of interpretation.  Your interpretation of those statements is quite different from mine.  We're back  to the continuum that I mentioned above. 

 

Frankly, I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere.  As I originally posited, it's one of those things best debated over a drink and in person rather than on a medium such as the Wire.

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On 1/15/2022 at 4:17 PM, Quiet Burp said:

...How did the two handed grip come about to be so prevalent? Has it been from the get go or did it creep in and slowly become the norm for most?

From the get go.  There, that answered the OP's question.  Since there has been nothing at all but repetition for 5 pages, I expect this topic to be closed soon.

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6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

And you get to define what the game is about? 

 

I think not.  In case you haven't noticed there's a real scarcity of people in SASS who share your sentiments.

 

NCOWS is calling you.  Perhaps you and the other three members can round up a posse and 'compete' 'old west' style. 

 

Happy trails.

 

Please leave NCOWS out of this. There are just as many NCOWS shooters using 2 hands as there are using only one. 

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3 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Joe, as has been mentioned (several times), SASS started out with the "slip-thumbing" style (your description).  That's all there was in the beginning.  So you CAN NOT say that wasn't the intention of the founders of SASS, regardless of what any open-to-interpretation description of SASS might suggest.  Why are you ignoring this fact?  This is actually a question.  

When SASS started they were developing the game. They came from IPSC, and their shooting style was affected by that.

I learned about SASS way back int he late 80s and bought every magazine about it that I could. I even ordered a Chronicle or two, back when they were printed on big newspaper sized sheets, and wore them out along with the magazines.

 

EVERY SINGLE article spoke about the Old West, the preservation of its heritage, the authentic clothing, guns, leather, etc. Back then part of the purpose of SASS, written clearly for all to see, was to "avoid the technical gamesmanship which has ruined other shooting sports".  I saw that technical gamesmanship creep in with the two-handed/slip-thumb modern shooting, and along with it the stages become less interesting, and the clothing become less detailed: some people wearing the bare minimum requirement of authentic clothing and rolling up their sleeves.

 

What you are stating then is that the the "About Us" is basically false advertising, and its really not about the Old West: its just some "Costumed competition".

 

The mentality you share is the same as those who move from California to another state because of all the oppressive laws and taxes, and then immediately proceed to Californicate the new state into the same cesspool. It's actually quite insidious.

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Bisley Joe, I have a serious question for you... do you shoot with any SASS-affiliated club?

 

 

Yeah a local club here. I was getting back into it when the whole shamdemic and ammo/reloading nonsense started. Been waiting for prices to level up so I can start up again.

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3 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

Well, thank you for helping to prove my point. In the Victorian Era, anyone other than a woman, child, or someone with an injury using two hands to shoot a pistol would have been considered effeminate.

 

"it's just logical that many did in real life."

Pretty logical to get the hell out of the way of musket fire and canon balls, don;t you think, yet THOUSANDS continued to fight like this-because it was the way they thought at the time. 

It's truly astonishing that you justify something based on zero evidence, saying "it's just logical that many did in real life" while ignoring overwhelming evidence of the opposite.

 

 

And I'll stick to my opinion that based on doesn't mean exactly as. And considering the founding fathers started the game 2 handed, then it seems fine to do it now. Not being gamey. If you want the top overall prize start shooting 2 handed and practice like those who won do.

 

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1 minute ago, Bisley Joe said:

Well, I never said "exactly as" either, or even insinuated it.

That's why I have kept saying we should just have categories.

 

"If you want the top overall prize start shooting 2 handed and practice like those who won do."

And thank you for proving my point!

If someone wants to be the top shooter in this shooting sport based on the Old West, he or she has to NOT shoot like in the Old West and adopt a modern shooting style.

You proved my point.

Thanks.

But somehow I don't think it matters to you at all.

 

 

You are right it doesn't matter to me one bit. I play the game for fun and the commaraderie. I have a few times won my category. And that can sometimes be a matter of category choice. Again there is nothing about our competition that is old west based as they didn't play our game to my knowledge.  Primarily it's the costuming and guns. And even our guns aren't quite what they had then. Although I shoot with some that use vintage arms and I never hear them complain about mine being faster. Shoot your own game and stop bitching about what others do. Done & off my soap box.

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14 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

If someone wants to be the top shooter in this shooting sport based on the Old West, he or she has to NOT shoot like in the Old West and adopt a modern shooting style.

 

That is not entirely a factual statement. There are several who have won state and regional matches who were NOT shooting in the traditional style. And they have gotten very close to winning the big one! 

 

57 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

If you bothered to rad what I have written, I have stated we should have less categories. And the modern style shooters already have their categories, so no need to make new ones.

 

Out of the official list of 166 possible categories in a SASS Match, only 58 allow participants to shoot in a modern style, or "Traditional" style as SASS calls it.

 

The remaining 108 categories are reserved for shooters who shoot their pistols one handed, unsupported.

 

Doing the math, more than 65% of the categories that could be offered at a match are reserved for one handed, unsupported shooters. 

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2 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

Yeah, you said it.

Thanks for proving my point!

 

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And as the Pard in Alabama did, won shooting Gunfighter. Practice Joe and you can do it too. Check out the overall winners at a State match, many aren't the fastest shooter, it's being from the right State! So their method of shooting had no impact. Most of us just accept the way the game is played.

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Here's something to ponder as well...

 

SASS officially recognizes separate black powder championships at the state, territorial, and international level.

 

Those matches have historically not recognized an overall winner.

 

However, the percentages of participants by shooting style and those matches is no different than a regular SASS cowboy action match.

 

Additionally, SASS also started Wild Bunch action shooting. While the game has a historic base in the World War I time period, and more specifically the movie, where they're all shooting one-handed, in that sport, which also does not recognize an overall, the vast majority of shooters shoot in a modern, two handed style.

 

So saying that people will magically start shooting in the Duelist or gunfighter style just because there is no overall winner is directly counter to these facts.

 

Could it be that shooters are gravitating to a two-handed grip for reasons other than they think they're going to win the next World championship?

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35 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

So here's the crux of the issue, stated by Eyesa Horg himself:

 

"If you want the top overall prize start shooting 2 handed and practice like those who won do."

 

This is PRECISELY what I am getting at.

 

Fact:

  • SASS/CAS is a shooting competition based on the Old West.
  • Clothing is based on the Old West.
  • Firearms are based on the Old West.
  • Our attitudes are supposed to be based on the Old West.
  • The Spirit of the Game is based on the Old West.
  • The Cowboy Way is based on the Old West.
  • The Shooting stages are based on the Old West.
  • We are supposedly vying to preserve the traditions of the Old West.
  • No one shot their pistol in the modern IPSC style we see some shooters doing in SASS.
  • Even the military and police trained in shooting one handed combat using modern double action revolvers and semiautomatic pistols well into the 20th century.
  • One of the stated intentions of SASS was "to avoid the technical gamesmanship that has ruined other shooting sports.
  • Overall winner is not a category, and the modern shooters dominate it, thus representing a shooting sport based on the Old West with modern tactics.

 

So why when it comes to the competition are the Old West and its traditions suddenly not important?

 

How can a shooting sport that touts the above requirements on the Old West allow those who wish to compete like that to be told "If you want the top overall prize start shooting 2 handed and practice like those who won do."?

 

How are we allowing those who are using technical gamesmanship to tell those who are not "just have fun" while they themselves ride the elite wagon?

 

Simple question, that will no doubt be perpetually flamed by those who don;t want it truly addressed.

What I said was you could start shooting 2 handed, others win shooting single handed. I will never win overall on time as I don't practice even 2 handed, but I have a damn good time!

Lots use guns that weren't made then either, spose that's technical gamesmanship too. Lots of us can't afford real Colts or Winchester '97's so we shoot guns based on that time period. IE: Rugers , IAC's, Uberti's etc.

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49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

Sir, part of common sense is applying context to information, and also addressing the actual issue instead of creating straw man arguments.

I don't think anyone will listen to what you think is part of common sense; however, you do seem to be a pro at straw man arguments. Oh look, there's one below.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

It is fact, provable from manuals and even film, that one-handed pistol shooting was taught well into the 20th century. It was considered faster.

Above is your straw man argument. It has nothing to do with the price of cheese in China.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

By your statements, those WW2 soldiers and training sergeants were pretty damn stupid.

I can't really judge them just yet as I can only address one idiot at a time. Gimme a few minutes.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

But then again, when someone actually comments sarcastically about historical footage "it's on youtube so it must be real", we can see a complete refusal of reality and an invincible ignorance that is difficult to comprehend.

^I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying we have video evidence of every shot fired? We can't use video evidence in this sport.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

And so, you refuse all the preponderance of evidence while using your own conjecture of "they must have" to justify your view, while calling my citing of evidence a serious lack of common sense.

You got one right! Good job buddy. Because it's common sense. You know some people are educated beyond their intelligence. This means they have a whole lot of education but not enough sense to not play in the road.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

You are applying your experiences to the thought process of centuries before. For example: it would seem smart to avoid being shot, yet it took centuries, and dealing with Native Americans, for SOME men to choose skirmish guerilla type fighting over standing in lines against other musket-men and even cannonballs. Were those men stupid? Idiots? Or did the prevailing ideology of combat keep them from doing what we consider prudent, but to them was a the time considered cowardly?

Cheese/China

Are you saying there was nobody using guerilla warfare and subterfuge until sometime after we fought Indians? I thought this was about SASS and the firing techniques of single action revolvers of the old west. I didn't realize we were talking about war tactics.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

You also cite eye witness accounts of a "steady two handed grip" to end a shootout. I already pointed that out, and have made it clear, more than once, and even pointed it out in the WW2 training video, and that this is not what I am referring to. 

You left off the part about tied back and modified triggers for faster shooting. WW2 training videos are irrelevant in this conversation.

49 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

The fact that you posted this means you are not actually reading what I am proposing, but instead reading into it, at best. Otherwise, you are replying to hearsay or unable to comprehend the written word. That I would call "seriously lacking in common sense".

 

 

Hmm. Let's see here:

There's this

Screenshot_20220502-155051_Chrome.thumb.jpg.f2003190ac67078c1c8c6d3befafad04.jpg

 

 

And this

Screenshot_20220502-155405_Chrome.thumb.jpg.d99bce7e973b9e476655979895ed3698.jpg

 

Looks to me like I comprehend it pretty well. You say nobody on God's green earth shot their revolver two handed at worst and at best you're saying nobody "slip thumbed" which I assume you mean slip hammering. As pointed out with the tied back/modified trigger, you are wrong about. 

  I sure hope you don't shower a couple weeks before you go shoot a match. I'd hate for you to not stink. You know, gotta keep it realistic.

 

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24 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

That's great! Supports my point even more!

So why not just have winners in categories instead of having an overall, which is usually dominated by a modern style shooter? That would be simple enough! Plenty of categories for all!

 

Do you believe that by not having an overall, that people still won't know who was the fastest?

 

Other than saving SASS around $16,000 a year in buckles (a WAG), what is gained by not having overall winners? What changes?

 

SHB pg 24

Quote

Overall winners, often including both the top male and top female competitors are traditionally recognized at SASS matches. The “best score” for the main match stages determines the overall winner. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

What is gained by not having overall winners? Please go back and read.

 

Is there some fame, notoriety, or super stardom afforded to overall winners that I am unaware of?

 

Are they marketed worldwide with their faces plastered on billboards as the official spokespeople of the game?

 

Can anybody tell me who the Western regional champion of 2015 was? Are there names enshrined on some Gold cup somewhere?

 

What is true is that champions, whether in their own category, or overall, work very hard for the accomplishments that they make, no matter their shooting style.

 

However, and to the point unfortunately, as an amateur sport, we don't keep historical records. I sometimes find that just as sad as anything else that we've talked about today. I for one would like to see not only who the overall winner at the Western regional in 2015 was, but to your point, I would also like to know who all the category winners were at that match, too.

 

Unfortunately, as we are, again, not professional, we have historically not seen a need to keep that information. So, unfortunately, much of it is lost to time.

 

4 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

People can know who the fastest is in category.


And in matches run today that are not scored by overall, people still know who the fastest was overall.

 

It isn't that hard to figure out.  We usually start talking about it over adult beverages around three and a half minutes after the scores are posted.

 

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It seems this entire discussion is about .000000001% of shooters wanting to make changes in the way we shoot let alone the firearms.   Look familiar with with other issues we have in the real world.   A lot of noise…..

Of course that’s just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like

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Dear Bisley Joe, just immerse yourself in the movie "Back To The Future", and pretend your Marty Mcfly, and be whoever you want to be, and leave the rest of us SASS shooters to who we want to be.  

Or maybe write a book about the REAL old West gunfights with your wealth of knowledge that you seem to have learned from years of watching Hollywood movies and TV shows and Spaghetti Westerns.

Or maybe, get a life.

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I know, I know - I was supposed to be done...

 

But is all this heartburn because of simple recognition at awards that "Hooptie" was our fastest shooter of the day?

 

  • It cannot be about separately scored categories because that already exists.
  • It cannot be about two-handed shooting creeping in and ruining the game as the game was begun with two handed shooting. 
  • It cannot be about two-handed shooters adopting the technique of slip hammering as has been pointed out - slip hammering using tied back triggers is 100% Old West historically accurate.  (and "modern" slip hammering is only a replacement of the tiedown with a finger to hold the trigger rearward).
  • It cannot be about concealing the fastest shooters result - because it is not a challenge to look for the lowest score on the sheet.
  • It cannot be about how the two-handed slip hammering shooter ruins the game for the historically accurate shooter - because even without an overall recognition - they will still be at the event.  (and posters have claimed they don't wish to eliminate the two-handed practice {not that I believe that})

 

And just for fun - lets say Bisley Joe gets everything he wants.

Elimination of slip hammering.

Elimination of supported shooting.

No overall shooter recognition.

 

Then what?

When Gunfighter becomes the dominant shooting style - we harp on the ruination of the game because their leather is not historically accurate?

They are not using Black Powder?

They're using the wrong caliber?

 

How far down the rabbit hole do we need to go before we acknowledge we are a shooting event with a myriad of different players that are all looking for something different out of their experience.

If your event is ruined by how another plays our game - then I would suggest the issue is with you.

 

Please feel free to stay home; read and study the SASS online marketing materials - watch the westerns channel, YouTube videos and take your yellow highlighter to your Time Life cowboys series of books.

Comfort yourself with the moral superiority of knowing you are right and the rest of us troglodytes are ill informed barbarians unsuited to claim we are "cowboy" shooters.

But while you do that - the rest of us will actually be out shooting matches - cheering for our friends, our category winners and yes, our overall top shooters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Aw Cummon you guys.  Six pages of Malcontented DRIVEL.

 

DON'T.    FEED.    THE.    TROLLS!!!!  :ph34r:

You're right you know.;)

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What?  But I’m hungry!

0695D847-D526-443F-9866-E8C7DBA09EE1.jpeg

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14 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

How are we allowing those who are using technical gamesmanship to tell those who are not "just have fun" while they themselves ride the elite wagon?

 

I have never shot a single stage in the "traditional" style, and have struggled mightily trying to demonstrate it on camera. I shot duelist from day one and moved to gunfighter after a couple years.

 

That being said, how does one "ride the elite wagon?" Additionally, what are the benefits afforded to those that do ride it?

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For those of you that were not around 20 years ago to argue with Bisley Joe, this is a fun read. :-) Have always appreciated his articulate points of view. His opinion is just that, his opinion. So is mine and everyone else that express their views on the wire. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

For those of you that were not around 20 years ago to argue with Bisley Joe, this is a fun read. :-) Have always appreciated his articulate points of view. His opinion is just that, his opinion. So is mine and everyone else that express their views on the wire. 

 

Thank you sir!

Whether we agree or not, I appreciate your honorable character.

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11 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

Tennessee, I don't go calling for people I can't debate to be shut up, and I don't join in with the mob to do that either. I also don't go looking for fights. The fact you've done all of the above shows your character, or lack thereof.

No, I won't go see you to prove my manhood. I'll leave that adolescent need to you so you can make up for whatever shortcomings you may have. But like I said, you want to approach me and shut me up over what I'm saying, have at it. You go ahead and start it, as bullies do. I'll sit back in the meantime and keep my honor and dignity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've already proved you wrong. You continue to accuse others of what you do. You want to pick on someone else, but when I invite you to pick on me, you try to be high and mighty. You start out with one argument and when proved wrong, you modify or change it altogether. Basically, you're not worth debating. 

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