Shooting Western Action two handed with pistols?

[Sixgun Seamus]

Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

At least on the screen, they had pretty cool horses with apparently a trunk. Look at all the crap they have in camp. Including rocks for the fire and firewood in the middle of no where with no trees or rocks. Always a huge coffee pot!!

Well, we do know for a fact that they didn't carry that stuff in their Silverado, Ram or F150

[Rip Snorter]

Shame on me why am I all of a sudden thinking Three Amigos!?

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

In the discussions about target sizes and distances, making up misses, etc. many have proposed that SASS is first entertainment and secondarily a competition. Otherwise wives, girlfriends, kids, people with physical limitations would find it too difficult. 

 

However people shot historically or in the western movies has no bearing on how SASS shooters shoot. I've asked this question many times before, just out of curiosity, and never get an answer.  Has anyone seen a historical account or a movie (pre SASS)  of someone shooting SASS style two handed rapidly cocking the gun with the off hand thumb? This doesn't mean simply using two hands to shoot the gun or supporting it on your off hand forearm. Again, this doesn't mean I think SASS shooters shouldn't use two hands, it's just a question.

[Sedalia Dave]

While 2 handed MAY be able to empty a pistol faster than a 1 handed shooter. There are many other aspects of this game that determine the over all match rankings. 

 

Most of an average shooters person's stage time involves transitions not the speed with which they can empty their firearm.

 

For the top 1% what determines the winner boils down to 

Accuracy

Transitions

Consistency

Shotgun proficiency

 

[Hendo]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Shouldn't we get rid of the 1897?

Hold on just a second there, Pard. That's going just a bit too far.

 

Now go sit in the corner for a half hour and think about what you've gone and said.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Well, we do know for a fact that they didn't carry that stuff in their Silverado, Ram or F150

We often arrive via Mustang.  Does that count??

[Rip Snorter]

8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

We often arrive via Mustang.  Does that count??

Only if you have Mustang Sally running on the sound system!

[Bisley Joe]

6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

While I understand the 2 handed argument, when I started it was recommended for safety reasons. About the time I wanted to try Gunfighter, I blew out my dominant shoulder. I can now years later only lift my arm to about 40 deg. empty. Now I need to actually hold the weight with my left hand. If we were to eliminate 2 hand hold, it would likely be the end of playing for me. Although I spose I could go duelist huh!

Anyway 2 handed has been typical since I started.

I do agree with no overall winner due to this as single handed, more realistic shooters don't have much chance of being on top.

 

I agree with you using both hands based on your injury.

I'm not saying to eliminate two-handed shooting. What I am saying is that the "Slip-Thumb" and now that someone mentioned it, fast-cocking with the support hand thumb is a modern shooting technique which, as you pointed out, dominates a period-based shooting competition.

And that's all it would take to actually respect the Old West history and traditions we tout, not to mention the spirit of the game: Just have categories, even simplifying them, so everyone competes in a realistic way with a realistic chance to win.

 

On a note about your arm: have you tried exercises like simmin, using bands, etc. to stretch and strengthen your arm? That may make a big difference.

[Texas Jack Black]

 Joe  after reading your posts I think NCOWS  may fit more to your logic. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

13 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

So screw those who want to have a chance at winning in this game while shooting in the OLD WEST style in an OLD WEST Competition?

 

Just came back from a state shoot where they gave out awards to around 40 or so different category winners. Each had an award as nice as the other. I didn't see any one of those winners feel somewhat slighted by another category, unless I was missing something. So, I guess I'm kind of missing the point of what's wrong with giving out awards to category winners like we do now... Each of them had a chance to win in their desired category. If they wanted to shoot a specific way, they chose the specific category that supported that way.

 

So, for those that were there for the discussions around the creation of the Classic Cowboy category, was it not created to emulate more of the Old West Style?

 

If we allow only period-Style firearm modifications, does this include allowing competitors to remove pistol triggers, and/or tying down triggers with latigo or other documented, period methods shootists used to go fast ler?

 

And finally, can someone please explain to me what the heck “Slip-Thumbing” is? How is it done? 

 

 

[Concho Billy]

5 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

In the discussions about target sizes and distances, making up misses, etc. many have proposed that SASS is first entertainment and secondarily a competition. Otherwise wives, girlfriends, kids, people with physical limitations would find it too difficult. 

 

However people shot historically or in the western movies has no bearing on how SASS shooters shoot. I've asked this question many times before, just out of curiosity, and never get an answer.  Has anyone seen a historical account or a movie (pre SASS)  of someone shooting SASS style two handed rapidly cocking the gun with the off hand thumb? This doesn't mean simply using two hands to shoot the gun or supporting it on your off hand forearm. Again, this doesn't mean I think SASS shooters shouldn't use two hands, it's just a question.

No, I haven't seen such a movie, but that doesn't mean cowboys didn't shoot the way we shoot.....I would think especially in the Old West one would want to shoot as fast as they possibly could shoot.

[Doc Shapiro]

I find it curious that our intrepid friend has been trying to make this argument for years.  There are often a very few that agree, but, by a large majority, it falls on deaf ears.  It does so because, in part, the drive to compete is part of our nature.  I expect that if someone chose to dig deep into the various cultures around the world, there will be a few where this nature is driven in another direction, such as the drive to improve at some particular skill.  In this case, it's still the need to compete, but it's driven more to compete within each person rather than against others.

 

I expect another part of the reason this falls on deaf ears is that it's counter to the entire history of the game.  It also doesn't take into account that, normally, "About Us" sections (and the like) are marketing speak and not necessarily reflective of the true nature of the organization.  Taking them literally, and ignoring the history of the organization, isn't a wise course of action.

 

Either way, it's a curious discussion.  As I said earlier, I don't think this particular tugboat is big enough to turn the ship in the desired direction.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

My last post on this thread.

Our GAME/ SPORT is not historical reenactment - it is a timed shooting competition utilizing old west era firearms.

The old west attire or adoption of alias is window dressing and mood enhancement for the timed shooting competition.

And no matter how many terms and phrases are cherry picked from website or handbook - there are no points or bonuses for historical accuracy or style points - we are FIRST and foremost a timed shooting competition.

 

The approved handgun shooting styles for use in this timed shooting competition are:

Duelist - single loaded handgun out of holster at any time - supported and manipulated by a SINGLE hand in contact with said handgun.

Supported - single loaded handgun out of holster at any time - supported and manipulated by TWO hands in contact with said handgun.

Gunfighter - two loaded handguns out of holster at any time - each individually supported and manipulated by a SINGLE hand in contact with a single handgun.

 

As it is a timed shooting competition - and since anyone with a modicum of sense could realize that there are discrepancies between the pistol handling allowances - categories (age based, propellant, pistol style, etc.) were established that ensured that shooters would only be required to compete against their peers in gear, shooting style, propellant and age.

 

I agree the two handed supported shooting style (likely) did not exist in the old west era - but so what?

It does exist within the context of our timed shooting competition AND since the "style" of shooting is a modern invention than it is no surprise the hammer manipulation would be a modern invention as well.

 

But it matters not; because of the category protections - NO ONE shooting in a "historically accurate" shooting style is competing with that two handed shooter.

 

So it is immaterial who shoots what and in what manner as you are only competing against your peers.

 

There is no such thing as overall category - solely an announcement of who the fastest shooter to complete the timed shooting competition was.

 

Lastly - if a shooter might actually shoot versus whining and worrying about what others are doing; they would likely find their enjoyment does not hinge on the actions of others.

 

[Concho Billy]

4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

My last post on this thread.

Our GAME/ SPORT is not historical reenactment - it is a timed shooting competition utilizing old west era firearms.

The old west attire or adoption of alias is window dressing and mood enhancement for the timed shooting competition.

And no matter how many terms and phrases are cherry picked from website or handbook - there are no points or bonuses for historical accuracy or style points - we are FIRST and foremost a timed shooting competition.

 

The approved handgun shooting styles for use in this timed shooting competition are:

Duelist - single loaded handgun out of holster at any time - supported and manipulated by a SINGLE hand in contact with said handgun.

Supported - single loaded handgun out of holster at any time - supported and manipulated by TWO hands in contact with said handgun.

Gunfighter - two loaded handguns out of holster at any time - each individually supported and manipulated by a SINGLE hand in contact with a single handgun.

 

As it is a timed shooting competition - and since anyone with a modicum of sense could realize that there are discrepancies between the pistol handling allowances - categories (age based, propellant, pistol style, etc.) were established that ensured that shooters would only be required to compete against their peers in gear, shooting style, propellant and age.

 

I agree the two handed supported shooting style (likely) did not exist in the old west era - but so what?

It does exist within the context of our timed shooting competition AND since the "style" of shooting is a modern invention than it is no surprise the hammer manipulation would be a modern invention as well.

 

But it matters not; because of the category protections - NO ONE shooting in a "historically accurate" shooting style is competing with that two handed shooter.

 

So it is immaterial who shoots what and in what manner as you are only competing against your peers.

 

There is no such thing as overall category - solely an announcement of who the fastest shooter to complete the timed shooting competition was.

 

Lastly - if a shooter might actually shoot versus whining and worrying about what others are doing; they would likely find their enjoyment does not hinge on the actions of others.

 

Well said, I think I'm done also.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Some of you are just muddying the waters talking about what cowboys did and didn't do in the old days.  There were many depictions in print of gunfights.  Most any reasonable person will know that the chances of anybody back then shooting like a modern CAS shooter had to be close to zero.  It would have amazed everybody who saw it and who would certainly talk about it.  They weren't shooting wimpy loads, there was a lot of smoke, etc.  But that's not the point.  Holding and firing the pistol with the strong hand while cocking with the supporting hand, or slip-thumbing it as B-Joe calls it, was the primary method of shooting at the inception of SASS,  as has been mentioned by those who were there.  Duelist came later.  So your argument lies solely in the way someone might interpret the printed description of SASS.  And as for the short strokes and such, that boat sailed so long ago there is no use saying anything about it except that you might not agree with it.  I wish those changes had not happened, but they did and I'm going to use it and enjoy it even though I'm not a real fast shooter, because shooting faster is fun.  

 

As I said, NCOWS seems to agree with your idea of CAS.  I am  a member because I support their ideas.  But you know what?  NCOWS is a LOT smaller than SASS.   Certainly there are folks over the years who have decided SASS was too gamy and switched to NCOWS but not a huge number.  

 

Also, I honestly don't think that there are too many people who read in the About Us section of SASS who then join up and find out that not everybody is shooting duelist and shooting stock guns, and so they aren't going to be able to win an overall trophy.  If they saw the About Us on the internet, then that means they can get on the internet which is CHOCK FULL of fast (and slow) people shooting.  People doh't join in a vacuum based just on what that said.

 

Well that's my opinion.  You also have yours.  Not many agree.  It's okay to wish that CAS was more like you wish it was, but it isn't and isn't going to change, so I guess you just felt the need to vent.  

[watab kid]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:14 PM, Bisley Joe said:

I get it.

I'm not suggesting to get rid of using two hands. I'm saying that the "Slip-Thumb" is what's the problem; to eliminate that, or eliminate "Overall".

yes , i was not suggesting you were , i was simply pointing out that there is a reason to two hand shoot - i agree with you on . slip thumb hammer whatever you want to call it - i think that has potential for safety issues , 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

1 hour ago, Concho Billy said:

No, I haven't seen such a movie, but that doesn't mean cowboys didn't shoot the way we shoot.....I would think especially in the Old West one would want to shoot as fast as they possibly could shoot.

 

Why would it have never been documented in a story, dime novel, newspaper clipping? Anything would be possible using your reasoning. Someone could have developed nuclear energy and never told anyone in 1875. We weren't  there afterall.  If shooters in the old west came up with this modern technique it would have been mentioned somewhere. 

 

Why is it so hard to just say there is no evidence that the technique was used in the old west? And one more time, I was just curious if there had been any historical documentation or scenes in old western movies not that it would matter with how SASS should be shot.

[Hendo]

2 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

Yes. Yes it is.

But did you really think this through before posting it?

Are you saying competition is the only focus here? Because if so, let's just allow whatever serves being more competitive, like running shoes, Glocks, red dot sights...

 

Every aspect of SASS in the About Us section mentions requirements based upon the Old West. So how is it that when it comes to the the main part of the COMPETITION: the SHOOTING STYLE, the Old West suddenly doesn't matter?

Did I really think before I posted? Yes, yes I did, but hey, thanks for the pompous response. (It was a rhetorical question.)

This is a timed competition with a whole bunch of fun thrown in. This isn't a button and stitch reenactment. You can go as historically accurate as you want, that's part of the fun, but at its core, this is still a timed competitive sport. 

If you want to go on the "this is what they did in 1885" pulpit, hang up your guns now, because they didn't do timed competitions back then. They dang sure didn't have the leisure time to go from town to town on a weekend and compete with a bunch of their friends.

 

I would be willing bet that if they did, short strokes and "slip thumbing" would have been a part of our lexicon a lot sooner. If you don't think so, you are being the intellectually dishonest one.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to a discussion with my sister as to why the 2nd Amendment doesn't only apply to muskets.

[Concho Billy]

8 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

Well, first of all, we do know a good deal about shooting methods of the day. It was the Victorian Era, and not the stone age. Paintings, drawings, photos, and every reference of the era shows us that pistols were shot one-handed. AN exception would be something like Wild Bill Hickok resting the barrel of his revolver on his arm for a precision shot. So no; NO ONE shot those revolvers two handed like we see in SASS matches.
Who would shoot with one hand when their other hand was free to support the shot? Everyone, right up until, and well into, the mid 20th century. This is proven for training manuals and even videos all the way up to WW2 and even the Vietnam era.
Here’s a US Army Combat Pistol Training video. Note the section on using the off-hand to support the pistol, a semiautomatic, or a double action revolver, on only occasions for a precision shot.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpBcUzcECSU

 

 

Another one from 1944

 

So I guess those WW2 era soldiers, not to mention their trainers, must not have been very smart, because here they are in training practicing shooting one-handed, and with double action revolvers and semiautomatic pistols no less!
The single action revolver was designed to be shot one handed. That is how pistols were shot from when they were invented, centuries before, all the way well into the 20th century, as we can see above. It wasn’t until the 1950s and 1960s when shooters like Weaver, Cooper, etc. started to develop and promote two handed shooting: and this was with modern, double action revolvers.

 

You say no-one is forcing me to shoot a certain way. Well, when you have a modern shooting method dominating a period game due to “overall”, you are telling those who want to COMPETE using the shooting methods of the OLD WEST “tough luck-deal with it”. And this is PRECISELY what is being done with comments like “Just shoot and have fun”. So why don’t the  modern style shooters just  “have fun” shooting in an OLD WEST styled competition, in the style that was done in the OLD WEST? Because they have no problem resorting to technical gamesmanship, and everyone else, Spirit of the Game, The Cowboy Way, and the traditions of the OLD WEST be damned.  

You say “Play the game by the rules as they are written, it is really our only choice, no person is at a disadvantage, you have the same opportunity as anyone else in this sport.”

How about those individuals who are so determined to shoot OLD WEST pistols using modern techniques, play the game as it is written: as an OLD WEST competition, where the guns, clothing, and even the shooting scenarios, are modeled after the OLD WEST, and “just have fun”, and shoot using the OLD WEST style of shooting? Or how about those modern shooters “just have fun” shooting in a category for modern style, without the whole “overall’ thing? I think the word is “elitism”.

 

Well there it is on YouTube so it must be true, if you want to talk about WW2 and Vietnam we can, but the discussion was the Old West. Stop whining about the rules, two handed shooting, and who is recognized as the fastest shooter. Your argument is about a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.

[Captain Bill Burt]

7 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

Nothing wrong with competition, as long as you compete in what the game is about. Like a competition based on the Old West, requiring the clothing, guns, stages, and even preservation of history revolving around the Old West.

 

So how is it that at the moment of the actual crux of the whole thing: the competition, the Old West is said to be irrelevant?

 

That's actually a question.

And you get to define what the game is about? 

 

I think not.  In case you haven't noticed there's a real scarcity of people in SASS who share your sentiments.

 

NCOWS is calling you.  Perhaps you and the other three members can round up a posse and 'compete' 'old west' style. 

 

Happy trails.

[Eyesa Horg]

Lost my POPCORN meme, but we need it. 

[Hendo]

24 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Lost my POPCORN meme, but we need it. 

I got ya covered. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

I'm still trying to figure out what "Slip-Thumbing" is and how it differs from what SASS calls the "Traditional" style...

[Doc Shapiro]

9 hours ago, Bisley Joe said:

 

So how is it that at the moment of the actual crux of the whole thing: the competition, the Old West is said to be irrelevant?

 

 

That's not the point you're actually proposing, nor the argument that you're making.  It's more a matter of degree.  Is the general concept of "Old West" a flavor, or is it an intent?  How far along that continuum should the game be?  This is the actual crux of the matter is.  You would like to see it farther down the continuum on the side of "intent".  The vast majority prefer to see it as "flavor". 

[Snakebite]

In the movies all 6 guns fire up to 35 times and only run out of ammo just before the gun is thrown. Misses don't count, and p's are only awarded after the hanging. Other than that, it's virtually the same.

[Griff]

It was an award winning photo, sorry if I neglected to get your release for its use...  Although, I did use 19th century technology to take, develop and print it, like our matches, it is a modern product.

 

I'm guessing in your fantasy, based on your words, the founders of this competition didn't really know what they were doing as they developed the content, rules, and general feel of the competition.  But, based on your interpretation of the preamble in the rule book, and you're here simply to enlighten us on the error of our ways?

[Bisley Joe]

1 hour ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

That's not the point you're actually proposing, nor the argument that you're making.  It's more a matter of degree.  Is the general concept of "Old West" a flavor, or is it an intent?  How far along that continuum should the game be?  This is the actual crux of the matter is.  You would like to see it farther down the continuum on the side of "intent".  The vast majority prefer to see it as "flavor". 

 

 

Each participant is required to adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, a Hollywood western star, or an appropriate character from fiction.
 

Every SASS member is required to select a shooting alias representative of a character or profession from the Old West or the western film genre.

 

Cowboy Action Shooting is a multi-faceted shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, pistol caliber lever action rifles, and old time shotguns. The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, "Old West" style. It is a timed sport in which shooters compete for prestige on a course of different shooting stages.

Spirit of the Game

As the game of Cowboy Action Shooting™ has evolved, our members have developed and adopted an attitude towards their participation called "The Spirit of the Game." It is a code by which we live.

 

Competing in "The Spirit of the Game" means you fully participate in what the competition asks. You try your best to dress the part, use the appropriate competition tools, and respect the traditions of the Old West. Some folks would call it nothing more than good sportsmanship. We call it "Spirit of the Game."

 

So how is it that at the moment of the actual crux of the whole thing: the competition, the Old West is said to be irrelevant?

 

That's actually a question.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

14 minutes ago, Bisley Joe said:

I am only advocating for categories.

 

Officially, there are already 166 possible categories in a SASS Match. How many more do we need?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Joe, as has been mentioned (several times), SASS started out with the "slip-thumbing" style (your description).  That's all there was in the beginning.  So you CAN NOT say that wasn't the intention of the founders of SASS, regardless of what any open-to-interpretation description of SASS might suggest.  Why are you ignoring this fact?  This is actually a question.  

[Griff]

Bisley Joe, I have a serious question for you... do you shoot with any SASS-affiliated club?

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Bisley Joe, as you have said SASS is based on and uses guns typical of the old west. Where does it say it's a re-enactmemt? If it was we would be shooting blanks at each other in a saloon etc. Again doubt they shot at steel real fast or even owned all the guns we use. They likely only had a pistol and some may have had a rifle as well. SASS is our game and it sounds like you possibly need a different game if you can't deal with the way the rest of us play it. No offense intended, but you must drive your Posse nuts!

[Tennessee williams]

I've tried to stay out of this one. I'm going to regret it I know, but...

 

   Anyone, suggesting that a single action revolver was never also fired two handed is seriously lacking in common sense. It doesn't matter to me if someone does a quick Google search with that question and they see a lot of opinions that seem to corroborate what they say. With a small amount of logical thinking one could conclude that yes, they used two hands also. Take for example when you grow up poor, you don't waste money on shot and you try like hell not to miss. If you miss, you don't eat. This is as true now in some areas as it was since we threw rocks. Now since not everybody was as accurate as Frank James, Wild Bill Hickok, or Randy St Eagle, it makes logical sense they would steady their aim by resting the barrel or using a two hand grip. That's just plain logical common sense, not relying on someones opinion I read on the web or seen in a Hollywood movie. Before someone says "they'd use a rifle for that", no. They would use whatever they had in order to eat. 

  As far as proof goes, there is an eye witness account from Wyatt Earp of a sheriff adapting a "steady two handed grip" to end a shootout. I'm not posting a link, yall can look it up for yourselves. 

  There are accounts also in the old west of people tying their trigger back or even disengaging the sear so it doesn't catch in order to "shoot faster". Also, as a gun collector I have seen period pieces modified as such. Again, no link yall can look it up.

   If a one handed shooter is not happy with their placement in a match, I would suggest practicing. A one handed shooter can beat a two handed shooter. I would not suggest trying to change other people's perception of what the game means to them. Every SASS shooter is different much the same as people were different in the old west. That hasn't changed. In the west not everybody wore chaps. Not everybody was a bartender. Not everybody was a Saloon girl, and damn sure not everybody shot one handed. 

I'm a duelist by the way.

[Eyesa Horg]

Thanks TN, you've earned a nanner split !

Actually even in the Hollywood stuff you see Ladies and kids with a 2 handed hold.  I agree, it's just logical that many did in real life.

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

I see that this topic has had 162 comments , That seems like 160 more than was needed.

Want to shoot one-handed. O.K. Have at it. Want to shoot with both hands gripping , O.K. , do it.

What more needs to be said.

Rex  

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Officially, there are already 166 possible categories in a SASS Match. How many more do we need?

i