44-40 Reloading

[Jay Vendetta]

I'm new to reloading for 44-40 and I'm having an interesting problem. When using once fired brass that was given or i purchased, i can't get the rounds to seat fully in my ruger vaqueros, but they go into a check gauge no problem. Brand of brass doesn't seem to affect this. When using new starline brass, with all other components the same they drop into the cylinder just fine. 

Any thoughts?

[Frontier Lone Rider]

Are you fully resizing the cases??

[Warden Callaway]

Dozens of possibilities.   Slightest bulge below crimp can do it. Tight throats. Maybe a good cleaning. 

[Jay Vendetta]

Just now, Frontier Lone Rider said:

Are you fully resizing the cases??

I believe so, I will double check that and get back to you.

[Jay Vendetta]

2 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Dozens of possibilities.   Slightest bulge below crimp can do it. Tight throats. Maybe a good cleaning. 

Any reason why that would be present in just used brass, when following the same reloading process as new brass?

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

New starline brass has not had the bottleneck fully developed. I'm betting dies are not adjusted correctly.

[Jay Vendetta]

1 minute ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

New starline brass has not had the bottleneck fully developed. I'm betting dies are not adjusted correctly.

I did notice when I ran the new brass through the sizing die that it put the bottleneck in it. Wasn't sure if that was normal, but it chambered and fired just fine.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

One other thought. Vaquero 44-40 cylinders are notorious for having undersized throats. Mic yours and make sure they are at least .429 the same as the barrel. Lots of them only mic about .425 from the factory. If yours are undersized Ruger will fix them for free.

What diameter bullets are you using?

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I only use Starline brass.  Remington, of which I have a bunch, run through the same die with the same adjustment will not fully seat in my Model P.  Passes the case checker just fine.

 

It was easier to stick with the one brand of brass that reliably works then make mix and match brass work.

[Jay Vendetta]

2 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

One other thought. Vaquero 44-40 cylinders are notorious for having undersized throats. Mic yours and make sure they are at least .429 the same as the barrel. Lots of them only mic about .425 from the factory. If yours are undersized Ruger will fix them for free.

I'll check into that as well, thanks.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

4 minutes ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

One other thought. Vaquero 44-40 cylinders are notorious for having undersized throats. Mic yours and make sure they are at least .429 the same as the barrel. Lots of them only mic about .425 from the factory. If yours are undersized Ruger will fix them for free.

Bingo, I have measured my Model Ps.  They are .426.  Remington brass case walls are thicker.  Good idea.

[Jay Vendetta]

2 minutes ago, Desert Pete SASS #42168 said:

I only use Starline brass.  Remington, of which I have a bunch, run through the same die with the same adjustment will not fully seat in my Model P.  Passes the case checker just fine.

 

It was easier to stick with the one brand of brass that reliably works then make mix and match brass work.

The once fired brass i used most recently was starline, still had the issue. Only new starline so far has been without incident. 

Now one thing I haven't tried is reloading one of my once fired starlines... maybe it has something to do with being fireformed to someone else's chamber?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Sizer die must be touching the shell holder or shell plate when the ram is fully raised to push case into die.  BUT sometimes that is not enough resizing, and folks have to switch to a different brand sizer die or grind/sand just a few thousandths off the bottom of the sizer die to get the shoulder (formed to it's full final shape by firing) to push back to a shape that will chamber.  Go very slowly when relieving the bottom of the die, testing the fit in chambers on several pieces of fired brass after just sizing it.    Work on fired brass (not new) when doing this as that is what has fully formed to your chambers. 

 

Other folks chambers may be either tighter or looser on shoulder position and shape.   But YOUR dies MUST get set so that 100% of the cases you resize are small enough to fit in the tightest chamber in your guns.

 

good luck, GJ

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Could be a combination of things.  The chambers might be a bit tight and if there is a slight bulge on a resized case by the head, it will not fit.  What resizing die are you using?  Is the die body fully seated on the shell holder?  I have some dummy rounds that I use to check chambers and some slip right in and others, will not seat fully.  I have only had that problem with 44-40s, both Colts and clones.  One Colt has chambers that are so tight that unfired powder will prevent new cases from loading properly into the chambers.

[Jay Vendetta]

3 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Sizer die must be touching the shell holder or shell plate when the ram is fully raised to push case into die.  BUT sometimes that is not enough resizing, and folks have to switch to a different brand sizer die or grind/sand just a few thousandths off the bottom of the sizer die to get the shoulder (formed to it's full final shape by firing) to push back to a shape that will chamber.  Go very slowly when relieving the bottom of the die, testing the fit in chambers on several pieces of fired brass after just sizing it.    Work on fired brass (not new) when doing this as that is what has fully formed to your chambers. 

 

Other folks chambers may be either tighter or looser on shoulder position and shape.   But YOUR dies MUST get set so that 100% of the cases you resize are small enough to fit in the tightest chamber in your guns.

 

good luck, GJ

I'll check into that thanks for the advice. 

[Jay Vendetta]

6 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Could be a combination of things.  The chambers might be a bit tight and if there is a slight bulge on a resized case by the head, it will not fit.  What resizing die are you using?  Is the die body fully seated on the shell holder?  I have some dummy rounds that I use to check chambers and some slip right in and others, will not seat fully.  I have only had that problem with 44-40s, both Colts and clones.  One Colt has chambers that are so tight that unfired powder will prevent new cases from loading properly into the chambers.

Using all lee dies, I've heard that they aren't the best for this caliber but it's what was available at the time. I need to double check on the position of the depriming die to make sure but I think its fully seated. 

[Warden Callaway]

I reload on Dillon 550B and use RCBS cowboy sizer die. Had to take at least .030 off the bottom of the die before it would push the shoulder back enough.  The Dillon shell plates are thicker than used is other places.

[Jay Vendetta]

1 minute ago, Warden Callaway said:

I reload on Dillon 550B and use RCBS cowboy sizer die. Had to take at least .030 off the bottom of the die before it would push the shoulder back enough.  The Dillon shell plates are thicker than used is other places.

I'm using a lee single stage with lee dies, ill have to check if I'm hitting the shell holder and if so take some material off the bottom.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

I’ve only been loading .44-40 for about a year, for my Miroku ‘73.

 

I ran a couple of boxes of Magtech factory ammo through the rifle with no issues.  When I reloaded the CBC headstamped cases, the rounds fit into a Wilson case gauge but will not chamber in my rifle.

 

Starline to the rescue.  Whether with virgin brass or fire formed reloaded cases, they work fine.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

What brand of dies are you using? I had started with a new set of Lyman dies and was also having inconsistent chambering problems. Garrison Joe recommended RCBS Cowboy dies and all my problems went away. 
 

Adding on, I crimp separately with a Lee Factory Crimp die. Others prefer the Redding Profile crimp die, but I just can’t seem to get it adjusted properly where it doesn’t crumple the case. 

[Roscoe Regulator]

My 1875 Remington revolver by Uberti required .430 bullets for throats and bore (not actually 44 WCF historic spec). I was happy with being able to use my 44 Special bullets. The reloads were never consistent with fitting in the gun until I trimmed the brass after many other adjustments to try. It was not the shoulder location. It was at the crimp, which looked textbook. All brass started as new Starline, as I recall (sold everything 44-40).

[Sedalia Dave]

Measure the OAL of the new brass after resizing and compare to the OAL of the once fired brass.

 

Resize a case and see if it will chamber without a bullet in the case.

 

Take a loaded case and color it with a sharpie. Insert it into a chamber and slowly turn it to see where it is hitting.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Besides taking a bit off the bottom of my die to set the shoulder back a bit, I have found that Starline or Winchester brass works fine, Remington, CBC, Hornady and a few others are either thicker or a tad longer. Remington brass won't even work consistently in my Remington 1875's due to the rim being slightly thicker, as my 2 Remingtons leave no room for tolerance differences. I thought I was dragging high primers but it was the bottom of the cases that showed the drag marks.

[Jay Vendetta]

Attaching a photo to show where a once fired starline case i bought is stopping in my vaquero. Seems to make light contact at the shoulder but mostly toward the rim. Die is making contact with the shell plate.

One other update, i took one of my starline once fired cases and it chambers no problem. Would that make this a fireform problem and if so what is the best solution? 

["Big Boston"]

Addendum: you posted as I was typing. I had the same issue, and sent it through a 30-06 FL die. I selected a die that sized the amount i wanted. Any 25-06, 270 or 30-06 will work. Variations in dies let me select the one that was best. 

 

Original post:

 

Interesting dilemma. I'm a fan of the 44-40, and ran into the same issues. My revolvers are a Vaquero, and a Smoke wagon and my rifle is a '73 SRC by Uberti. 

 

I'll try a be brief, and still be concise. In my case there were several different issues, and I managed to find solutions to each and my ammo works in all my guns. 

 

My first step in reloading is to restore the slope of the case. I do this with a 30-06 FL die. i decap with the die at the same. This lets me clean the primer pockets before sending the brass through my 550.

 

The next issue is that most 44-40 FL sizing dies in addition to not restoring the slope of the brass case is that most do not set the shoulder back enough for all chambers. To better control this I ground a bit off the bottom of the FL die. I didn't need much in my set-up, but I did need some. I ground off 0.050" but I didn't need that much. I adjusted the die so that the shoulder was set back some on my shortest headspaced fired brass. 44-40 brass will tolerate setting back the shoulder well enough to last many firings. It is not as critical as setting back the shoulder on hunting and target high powered rifles.

 

I use 429 dia bullets, so the neck was sized correctly. If my firearms needed smaller bullets, I would need a different FL die as my LEE FL die sizes minimally. 

 

I seat with a LEE crimp die and crimp with a Redding. I still have the seating stem in the die, and adjust it to the correct OAL, as a fail safe. 

 

That's what I do, but bottom line, the issue that is creating the interference needs to be determined and corrected. The common issues are cartridge case wall slope, position of the shoulder and diameter of the neck with a bullet seated. 

 

I've seen some pretty crappy chambers, the pictures are of one of the worst.

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Jay Vendetta said:

One other update, i took one of my starline once fired cases and it chambers no problem. Would that make this a fireform problem and if so what is the best solution? 

 

Will it chamber after you reload it?

[Jay Vendetta]

Just now, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Will it chamber after you reload it?

I haven't cleaned it yet so I haven't tried that. I will do that tomorrow and let you know.

[Jay Vendetta]

1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

Addendum: you posted as I was typing. I had the same issue, and sent it through a 30-06 FL die. I selected a die that sized the amount i wanted. Any 25-06, 270 or 30-06 will work. Variations in dies let me select the one that was best. 

 

Original post:

 

Interesting dilemma. I'm a fan of the 44-40, and ran into the same issues. My revolvers are a Vaquero, and a Smoke wagon and my rifle is a '73 SRC by Uberti. 

 

I'll try a be brief, and still be concise. In my case there were several different issues, and I managed to find solutions to each and my ammo works in all my guns. 

 

My first step in reloading is to restore the slope of the case. I do this with a 30-06 FL die. i decap with the die at the same. This lets me clean the primer pockets before sending the brass through my 550.

 

The next issue is that most 44-40 FL sizing dies in addition to not restoring the slope of the brass case is that most do not set the shoulder back enough for all chambers. To better control this I ground a bit off the bottom of the FL die. I didn't need much in my set-up, but I did need some. I ground off 0.050" but I didn't need that much. I adjusted the die so that the shoulder was set back some on my shortest headspaced fired brass. 44-40 brass will tolerate setting back the shoulder well enough to last many firings. It is not as critical as setting back the shoulder on hunting and target high powered rifles.

 

I use 429 dia bullets, so the neck was sized correctly. If my firearms needed smaller bullets, I would need a different FL die as my LEE FL die sizes minimally. 

 

I seat with a LEE crimp die and crimp with a Redding. I still have the seating stem in the die, and adjust it to the correct OAL, as a fail safe. 

 

That's what I do, but bottom line, the issue that is creating the interference needs to be determined and corrected. The common issues are cartridge case wall slope, position of the shoulder and diameter of the neck with a bullet seated. 

 

I've seen some pretty crappy chambers, the pictures are of one of the worst.

 

 

 

I'll look into that 30-06 die that is an interesting idea. Thanks.

[Yul Lose]

On a couple of pairs of 44-40 vaqueros the chambers were not cut quite right so I sent the cylinders to Ruger and they came back in like new condition and loaded as they should.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I had the same problem you describe.  Not in ALL my guns, so I thought perhaps the two revolvers, which were newer ones, had undersized chambers and needed to be reamed out a little.   As it turned out, they were tight chambers according my gunsmith, but the problem still existed after he reamed them out, but not with every round.

So, one day I took a box of reloaded .44-40's and some chambered, and some did not.   I set aside the ones that would not and examined them.   All of them had a slight "imperfection" in the crimp.  Maybe a slight bulge, or some other flaw.

So, instead of trying to seat and crimp with the same die like I did for .45 Colt, I got a Lee Factory Crimp die.  I only seat with the seating/crimp die, and then I crimp with the FCD.   Since I did that, I've never had a problem.

That's what worked for me, so that's what I recommend.  It solved the same problem with .32-20.  In fact, I got the FCD for all bottle neck cartridges, and it's saved me a lot of grief.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Article on reloading bottle neck cases at bottom of page.

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/gazette/2008/sep08.html

[Jay Vendetta]

41 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I had the same problem you describe.  Not in ALL my guns, so I thought perhaps the two revolvers, which were newer ones, had undersized chambers and needed to be reamed out a little.   As it turned out, they were tight chambers according my gunsmith, but the problem still existed after he reamed them out, but not with every round.

So, one day I took a box of reloaded .44-40's and some chambered, and some did not.   I set aside the ones that would not and examined them.   All of them had a slight "imperfection" in the crimp.  Maybe a slight bulge, or some other flaw.

So, instead of trying to seat and crimp with the same die like I did for .45 Colt, I got a Lee Factory Crimp die.  I only seat with the seating/crimp die, and then I crimp with the FCD.   Since I did that, I've never had a problem.

That's what worked for me, so that's what I recommend.  It solved the same problem with .32-20.  In fact, I got the FCD for all bottle neck cartridges, and it's saved me a lot of grief.

I did buy the lee factory crimp but didnt notice any difference on my new brass loads and stopped using it. I'll check that out when I get a chance. 

11 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Article on reloading bottle neck cases at bottom of page.

http://www.cliffhangershideout.com/gazette/2008/sep08.html

I'll check that out thanks.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 minutes ago, Jay Vendetta said:

I did buy the lee factory crimp but didnt notice any difference on my new brass loads and stopped using it. I'll check that out when I get a chance. 

 

You mentioned you were using Lee dies.   So am I.

Make sure that the seating/crimp die that came with the set is ONLY seating and not in any way trying to crimp,

And then carefully use the FCD so that the first time you try to use it, it doesn't do anything, and then slowly adjust it till you get the proper crimp.   It's a tedious process, but once you get there, you are good to go.

 

[Jay Vendetta]

1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

You mentioned you were using Lee dies.   So am I.

Make sure that the seating/crimp die that came with the set is ONLY seating and not in any way trying to crimp,

And then carefully use the FCD so that the first time you try to use it, it doesn't do anything, and then slowly adjust it till you get the proper crimp.   It's a tedious process, but once you get there, you are good to go.

 

I might look into that, only problem i have with it is my new starline loads chamber just fine. With seating and crimping at the same time.

Its only with once fired brass that I acquired from others that I am having issues with. I got a second to load one of my once fired pieces of brass, that I fired from the vaquero, and it chambered just fine. Seems to be narrowed down to, in my opinion, a fireform issue/difference in chambers.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I would can any Lee dies and go to RCBS or Redding.

 

You have some other-folks brass that is too large in the OD about 0.75" above the rim.   Fired at high pressure in a sloppy chamber.  You need the tight dimensions of a well built sizer die.

 

good luck, GJ