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Toyota president on electric cars


Trigger Mike

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

It's interesting that all the anti-EV people always spout off about "Well, the mining and production of batteries cause more pollution than driving (insert favorite number of miles or years) in a gas car!"  But they never mention the pollution caused by the mining and production of those same gas cars.
Again, they aren't the panacea that a certain party claims them to be.  And until we solve the infrastructure issues (build more nuclear power plants) they will have limited appeal to those in rural areas because of lack of charging stations. But for many they are good fit.  The savings in fuel over the Tundra we had makes the monthly payment.  No oil changes.  No belts.  No radiator flushes.  OK, so after 8 to 10 years have to replace the battery.  Yes, it is expensive.  But if you take an honest look at it, if you set aside the $100 every 3,000 mile that you would spend on oil changes, the money for radiator flushes, plug wires, other regular servicing, you will have more than enough to pay for the replacement.  One hit instead of nickel and diming you .  (OK, REAL men all do all their own servicing for five bucks...but then there are the 95% who don't have the space, the knowhow, the time, the inclination to do it themselves)

So there’s no maintenance costs on a EV ? Electricity has to cost , and sooner or later the government is going to get their road tax money on the EV’s , and the charging stations are going to cost just like a gas pump does now + a special road tax on that electricity. I’m glad you’re saving money but the only reason you are is because of the government subsidizes the EV compared to gas . As soon as the government can reduce the availability of gas cars that will go away and the true cost will be borne by the end user . 
And I’m not anti EV . I just have zero reasons to switch until they make one with the same capability as the Ram 1/2 ton 4wd or Subaru Outback I currently have. With the same cost per mile to operate.
I’ve driven a Tesla and they have fantastic acceleration and seem to be well made , but their cost and limited capabilities just make it a no go for me .

This whole switch is much to do about nothing, it’s just the government picking winners and losers . Something they have a very poor track record on . The markets not always right but it’s right way more often than the government.

I think it goes back to that old adage of if you want more of something subsidize it , if you want less of it , tax it . Both vehicles are bad for the environment in their own way , your just trading one set of problems for another , the whole “good for the environment” is just a marketing ploy. 
Once we develop a better battery/way to store electricity I’m sure allot of great options will open up for consumers, we’re just not there yet.

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2 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

So there’s no maintenance costs on a EV ?

 

Very little.  Tires (Tyres), brakes, minor things.  

I'll grant that the limited range and lack of charging stations can be a bit of a pain and makes planning trips more difficult.  But, with a bit of planning I could drive across the US.  It would take a day or two longer than in a gas powered car, but I could do it.  Pretty much, at the moment, only one route I would be able to take.

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41 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Very little.  Tires (Tyres), brakes, minor things.  

I'll grant that the limited range and lack of charging stations can be a bit of a pain and makes planning trips more difficult.  But, with a bit of planning I could drive across the US.  It would take a day or two longer than in a gas powered car, but I could do it.  Pretty much, at the moment, only one route I would be able to take.

When I used to drive between CA and Mi to go home to visit my family I can remember many places where you had to plan for gas , maybe I’m wrong but but I would doubt they have EV charging stations everywhere needed. It would take me 4 to 5 days to make that trip on my own .

How long does it take for a full charge on your EV ? And how many plugs are available at the typical charging stations ? And what if their all in use? To me this means you can’t run anywhere near mt if you want to stay warm or cool while you wait for a plug . Plus if everyone were to drive a EV imagine the parking lot full of plugs that would be needed , they need to get the charging time down around the time to fill a gas vehicle. 
The only real good application I see for a EV right now is a lunch box hauler to get people back and forth to work . And only because of government subsidies. I’m hoping this pans out for all of us , allot of tax money went into NASA and I think allot of good tec came out of it but I’m sure there are people who feel differently .

If EV’s where the great idea the government says they are , they wouldn’t need to be subsidized and they would be selling like smart phones. I’d probably be driving a Itruck right now 

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3 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

It's interesting that all the anti-EV people always spout off about "Well, the mining and production of batteries cause more pollution than driving (insert favorite number of miles or years) in a gas car!"  But they never mention the pollution caused by the mining and production of those same gas cars.
Again, they aren't the panacea that a certain party claims them to be.  And until we solve the infrastructure issues (build more nuclear power plants) they will have limited appeal to those in rural areas because of lack of charging stations. But for many they are good fit.  The savings in fuel over the Tundra we had makes the monthly payment.  No oil changes.  No belts.  No radiator flushes.  OK, so after 8 to 10 years have to replace the battery.  Yes, it is expensive.  But if you take an honest look at it, if you set aside the $100 every 3,000 mile that you would spend on oil changes, the money for radiator flushes, plug wires, other regular servicing, you will have more than enough to pay for the replacement.  One hit instead of nickel and diming you .  (OK, REAL men all do all their own servicing for five bucks...but then there are the 95% who don't have the space, the knowhow, the time, the inclination to do it themselves)

You are worried about gas engine emissions but not about building a bunch of nuclear power plants? I don't know where you get all your servicing done for $100 that you outlined , as you are getting a bargain. And I don't spend a $100 every 3000 miles thats just ridiculous. How often do you really change plugs and plug wires? 75K-100k, synthetic oil changes vary between 10-15k miles. Batteries DONT LAST 8-10 years, not even close. More like 5 years +-some months. But hey I'm just a offshore electrician that deals with batteries in our back up systems. No belts guess there will be no ac or auxiliaries on that EV you will be using. Because something has to drive the auxiliaries and it will be belts unless you are going to design them all electric also. But then the power consumption of the EV goes down , mileage goes down. And then there is the pesky takes forever to charge. But hey who cares about all the negatives, who cares when you have 250 million EVs and all the batteries every 5-6 years that need replacing. Its eco friendly, ya know.

 

Sometimes people can't see the forest from the tree they are admiring. It may be the future, it just isn't our future thats for sure.

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Very little.  Tires (Tyres), brakes, minor things.  

I'll grant that the limited range and lack of charging stations can be a bit of a pain and makes planning trips more difficult.  But, with a bit of planning I could drive across the US.  It would take a day or two longer than in a gas powered car, but I could do it.  Pretty much, at the moment, only one route I would be able to take.

Are you retired? People that aren't don't have the time to take to plan a trip across the US . Especially not stopping every 300 or so miles to charge there batteries at charging stations that are by far slower than gassing up.

 

What about rural areas? How long before they would get enough charging stations? Ever think that you will need just about as many charging stations as gas pumps to supply everyone if we all had EV's? 

 

Where do you get the notion that the EV want have a bunch of maintenance costs associated with it? Everything has costs it will just be different costs and more expensive costs with EV's. Trust me electronics will cost you.

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53 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

When I used to drive between CA and Mi to go home to visit my family I can remember many places where you had to plan for gas , maybe I’m wrong but but I would doubt they have EV charging stations everywhere needed. It would take me 4 to 5 days to make that trip on my own .

 

Correct.  I did mention that to drive across the country there was only one route I could use.  Maybe if I had a Tesla it would be different.

 

53 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

How long does it take for a full charge on your EV ?

 

 i don't know from zero, but from 13% to 95% on a Level 3 charger is about 45 minutes.  

And how many plugs are available at the typical charging stations ?

I don't know what a typical one is.  At the Coddingtown shopping center in Santa Rosa EVGo has 6 Level 3 fast charger stations.  Tesla installed at least 20 in the same parking lot.  Santa Rosa Plaza has about a dozen.  The casino in Rohnert Park has 6, 2 of which are fast chargers, the other 4 are Level 2 which will give a full charge in about 6 to 8 hours.  There are other places that have one or two chargers scattered around town

 

And what if their all in use? To me this means you can’t run anywhere near mt if you want to stay warm or cool while you wait for a plug.

Can run the heater or AC for an hour and use about 1%.  It isn't the "YOU'LL DRAIN THE BATTERY IN TWO MINUTES TRYING TO KEEP WARM OR COOL" that so many imply will happen.  

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Slapshot said:

Are you retired? People that aren't don't have the time to take to plan a trip across the US . Especially not stopping every 300 or so miles to charge there batteries at charging stations that are by far slower than gassing up.

 

What about rural areas? How long before they would get enough charging stations? Ever think that you will need just about as many charging stations as gas pumps to supply everyone if we all had EV's? 

 

Where do you get the notion that the EV want have a bunch of maintenance costs associated with it? Everything has costs it will just be different costs and more expensive costs with EV's. Trust me electronics will cost you.

In other posts in this thread I addressed all these points.  Some I concede are real issues, some I said are just knee-jerk hate.  

 

I didn't say, as you claim, that ALL service is done for $100, but looking at the cost of oil changes anymore, at least around here, you find them between about 50 bucks and 150 bucks.

 

I can't do the 14 hour drives , stopping only for fuel and to use the head.  A break of about half an hour to an hour every 150 to 200 miles is SOP now.  

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Oh, and I'm not using one "to save the planet" or any such crapola.  Got it because it was more affordable than dumping close to $8,000 in repairs to a 20 year old pickup.  

 

In the 9 months we've had it my fuel cost (electricity is a fuel) has been about $250.  Driving the same distance that would have cost about $2,000 in the Tundra.

 

It's also a lot more comfortable for my wife.  She can ride for 2 to 3 hours without being in pain from the drive.

 

But, yeah, because EVs can't go 1,000 miles while pulling 20,000 pounds uphill in four feet of snow they are useless for everything.

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I don't think its knee jerk hate , but people wanting solutions to the many problems packaged up with the EV push. The Gov wants to push EV's down everyone's throats without properly planning for them. We don't have the electrical grid to handle everyone having a EV's much less all of the required charging stations around the US. I think it would be prudent and smart to tackle the problem of enough electricity and having the electrical grid capable of handling all of the requirements before leaping into it. 

 

Would EV's be good for some city dwellers to commute maybe. But until all the negatives are addressed why would anyone push the EV's so hard and fast? Think maybe there is a political agenda behind all of this and its not for the benefit of any of the citizens of this good country?

 

Everyone acts like petro is so bad, when actually you are just replacing one bad with another. Its called redirecting to look good.

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3 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Oh, and I'm not using one "to save the planet" or any such crapola.  Got it because it was more affordable than dumping close to $8,000 in repairs to a 20 year old pickup.  

 

In the 9 months we've had it my fuel cost (electricity is a fuel) has been about $250.  Driving the same distance that would have cost about $2,000 in the Tundra.

 

It's also a lot more comfortable for my wife.  She can ride for 2 to 3 hours without being in pain from the drive.

 

But, yeah, because EVs can't go 1,000 miles while pulling 20,000 pounds uphill in four feet of snow they are useless for everything.

 

So Joe what kind of EV you got? Did you buy a big ole EV truck? If not the cost comparison is apples to oranges. Comparing a comparable sized gas burner to that EV would be a better comparison. 

 

Nothing wrong with getting a EV or hybrid. But as with anything they aren't for everyone like the Gov is trying  to force.

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Correct.  I did mention that to drive across the country there was only one route I could use.  Maybe if I had a Tesla it would be different.

 

 

I guess that’s another thing that bugs me about the EV implementation, why aren’t plugs standardized ? 
You can stop at any gas station and fill any commercially made vehicle. If the government and the industry are serious about replacing gas vehicles their needs to be some standardization.

If one of the gas engine manufacturers made you use only their filling stations I can’t imagine them being very popular 

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10 hours ago, Slapshot said:

Are you retired? People that aren't don't have the time to take to plan a trip across the US . Especially not stopping every 300 or so miles to charge there batteries at charging stations that are by far slower than gassing up.

 

Seriously, the Tesla UX is done very well, and makes this easy.

Put in a start and end point, it will show the Tesla rapid charging stations between the points, and how much to charge the battery before leaving for the next station, with a user input buffer.

The Tesla software takes things like slope and elevation gain into consideration when calculating the estimation of charge needed. 

I agree, it's still much slower than filling up with gas, but the supercharger stations are pretty quick compared to level 1 or level 2 charging, like 480Volt 300amp quick. Charges 75 miles of range in 5 minutes.

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Yup, and rapid charging shortens the life of the batteries. Unless the laws of physics are repealed, this conundrum isn’t gonna change much. 
 

Despite the marketing, these cars are as disposable as cell phones and computers. But the majority of drivers lease them so they’re shielded from the true cost of owning them, since batteries last longer than a three year lease. Just turn the car in, lease another.  Out of sight, out of mind, into the landfill. Or like old computers, sent overseas to be processed by ultra cheap labor to extract the precious metals. 

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52 minutes ago, Rooster Cognizant said:

I agree, it's still much slower than filling up with gas, but the supercharger stations are pretty quick compared to level 1 or level 2 charging, like 480Volt 300amp quick. Charges 75 miles of range in 5 minutes.

Not quite that fast.  480v at 300 amps is 144kw.  In 5 min, that’s only 12 kwh.  That’s maybe 48 miles at 4m/kw.  in cold weather at highway speeds maybe 30 miles.   A lot of EV’s won’t charge that fast and if they do, won’t charge that fast for very long considering it’s 2C for most cars out right now.  Fwiw you really need to be under 1C for good battery life.  That makes it around an hour for a full charge.  My Bolt was limited to 40 kw.  That made it about 2 hrs for a full charge due to taper.  

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And there you go no matter how you slice it, reality is far, far , different than expectations concerning the EV's and charging. I didn't sleep at a holiday in last night but have been a offshore electrician for the last 10+ years.

 

I wonder once every family in the US has a EV and they all plug them up one night how long the blackout will last? 

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Who I really feel sorry for are the folks being forced into EVs in areas like CA where when wildfires break out, their EVs won't be able to get them or their belongings out due to not being able to charge their cars.

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Emp/solar flare. It's a low order probability but all the electronics gonna stop at once.

 

Good solar flare and they burn up. 

 

I believe hydrogen fuel cell hybrids will likely be the way to go. 

 

But that'll probably be after the lithium wars.

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On 1/15/2022 at 11:41 AM, Matthew Duncan said:

Wonder how long the car’s battery will keep the heater running when stuck in traffic jam during a snow storm?

I don't think the industry engineering geeks think very much about unusual situations.  Like the lights that come on in my new Ford truck, every time a door is opened--even if I need to stay hidden from somebody.  Or auto-dimming headlights that don't operate properly on a curvy mountain road.  Or auto safety door locks that lock me out of my running truck when I get out and close the driver's door while I open my gate in the rain.   

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On 1/15/2022 at 2:26 PM, Buckshot Bear said:

And what happens to the billions of batteries at end of life?

Or when Hunter Biden sells our only supplies of Cobalt off to China?

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12 hours ago, Texas Joker said:

Emp/solar flare. It's a low order probability but all the electronics gonna stop at once.

 

Which will be just about every vehicle on the road today.

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10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I don't think the industry engineering geeks think very much about unusual situations.  Like the lights that come on in my new Ford truck, every time a door is opened--even if I need to stay hidden from somebody.  Or auto-dimming headlights that don't operate properly on a curvy mountain road.  Or auto safety door locks that lock me out of my running truck when I get out and close the driver's door while I open my gate in the rain.   

In most vehicles, those types of features can be reprogrammed.

 

https://www.wheelsjoint.com/how-to-turn-on-off-ambient-lighting-on-ford-f-150/

 

 

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I was absolutely excoritated on Farce Book when I suggested electric cars were not going to be a good choice because they are ... electric.
I know what happens on a dead short with a lead-acid battery.

I've fought car fires.

I know the random damage done to an automobile in a collision.

I postulated that a collision-induced short of that big battery pack would result in fire that could not be contained with conventional fire fighting methods, that fire departments nationwide would have to have extensive in-service sessions detailing how to isolate the batteries in the event of collision -- and I was flayed, flogged, flagellated, decried as a Luddite and worse, accused of being a heaver of wooden sabatons into the London loom gearboxes ...

... and then we started getting battery fires.

I guess real world differs from the Farce Book world.

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14 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Which will be just about every vehicle on the road today.

Exactly.  Any car built within the last 30 years is computer controlled and would not run.  You would have to go back to 50+ year old cars with carburetors and points to find one that could survive an emp/solar flare.    
 

evs have issues that have not been solved yet that will prevent them from tackling corner cases.    Long range, towing, high speed, cold all work against the tiny amount of energy a battery stores.    The 75kwh battery in a tesla 3 LR is just over 2 gallons of gas worth of energy.   While an ev is 3-4x as efficient, making that equal to about 8 gallons in a regular car, it’s not very much.   No amount of magic marketing will change the physics.    Then you get to cost, electricity is current more expensive than gas for the same amount of energy.   $3 gas is about $.09/kwh and $4 gas is $.12/kwh.  

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42 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

The 75kwh battery in a tesla 3 LR is just over 2 gallons of gas worth of energy.

 

You are saying that the Tesla e LE has a range of 50 miles or less?

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24 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

You are saying that the Tesla e LE has a range of 50 miles or less?

No, I am saying it’s battery has the energy of 2 gallons of gas and being an ev it’s 3-4 x as efficient as a gas car, So that’s equal in range of 6-8 gallons of gas.  It’s a fairly efficient car, so we can assume 35 mpg.  So range should be 210-280 miles.    
 

put the same battery in a truck and it goes 120-160 miles.  Part of the reason we don’t have any electric trucks yet.  You basically need 2-3 of those batteries for each truck.   

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21 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

equal in range of 6-8 gallons of gas.  It’s a fairly efficient car, so we can assume 35 mpg.  So range should be 210-280 miles.    
 

put the same battery in a truck and it goes 120-160 miles.  Part of the reason we don’t have any electric trucks yet.  You basically need 2-3 of those batteries for each truck.   

 

Sounds about like the same drop as passenger car to pickup, which is why pickups have larger fuel tanks than passenger cars.

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15 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Sounds about like the same drop as passenger car to pickup, which is why pickups have larger fuel tanks than passenger cars.

So if you added a bigger battery pack or more (like a bigger gas tank) then your weight goes up. So now the capacity of the truck is even less than it was when you started with the car battery pack. Batteries are heavy , heavier than a tank of fuel I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts. 

Wonder how much goods are going to be when they force EV truck on the trucking industry? Certainly will be more than what goods are now even with the Biden inflation.

 

No matter how you slice it EV's have a lot of downsides that overcome the little benefits they give. 

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46 minutes ago, Slapshot said:

So if you added a bigger battery pack or more (like a bigger gas tank) then your weight goes up. So now the capacity of the truck is even less than it was when you started with the car battery pack. Batteries are heavy , heavier than a tank of fuel I'd bet a dollar to doughnuts. 

Wonder how much goods are going to be when they force EV truck on the trucking industry? Certainly will be more than what goods are now even with the Biden inflation.

 

No matter how you slice it EV's have a lot of downsides that overcome the little benefits they give. 


A gallon of gas weighs about 7lbs. Ol’ Green has a 34gal capacity tank. 238lbs of fuel and the tank weighs 40lbs. That’s 278lbs.  
 

The weight of a Tesla battery is approximately 1,200 lbs.!!  That means that we lose over 900lbs of payload capacity IF we only use one battery!  To haul the same payload the same distance, you’ll need two batteries and that extra battery alone is the equivalent of the average payload capacity of the average pickup truck!

 

The EV pickup has a way to go to match the efficiency of a gasoline or diesel pickup.  The EV chassis will have to be at least half again the capacity and capability of a standard pickup just to roll, start, and stop!!  No wonder they cost so much more!  
 

The EV portion of the automotive industry has a lot to work out!!

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Sounds about like the same drop as passenger car to pickup, which is why pickups have larger fuel tanks than passenger cars.

But it’s like comparing apples and oranges, they have different capabilities. You keep comparing your ev to your old truck . If you had purchased a VW diesel you’re going to be saving a bunch on fuel costs also . To make a accurate comparison it has to be the same class of vehicle. I’d like to say the same capabilities but there probably isn’t a ev out there that has the same capabilities as your old truck. A not sure any of the EV’s have the range of a car if you go best in class vs best in class . I remember when I was in HS one of my buddies girlfriends moved to VA and he used to drive to visit her . He had a VW rabbit diesel, he could get from Mi to Va without filling up , if I remember right that the got like 45mpg and was more comfortable than my girlfriends chevette 

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On 1/21/2022 at 12:40 AM, DeaconKC said:

Who I really feel sorry for are the folks being forced into EVs in areas like CA where when wildfires break out, their EVs won't be able to get them or their belongings out due to not being able to charge their cars.

A large number of electric car purchasers bought them for the “I don’t have to pay for the electricity” aspect because a lot of the large businesses have solar car chargers installed in their parking lots and don’t charge for the recharging. A relative of mine and her husband both bought one and where they worked they could charge for free and then Covid 19 hit and they were forced to work from home where they didn’t have a car charger. In the town they live in they had to pull a permit for the electric work that was needed to install the charger, that took a little over 2 months and then another 6 weeks to get it installed. Once it was installed they couldn’t believe how high their electric bill was so they opted to have solar power installed on the house. Well guess what? They had to pull a permit for that too and when the system was finally installed it took the power company nearly 2 months to come out and inspect and sign off on it. Their dad was talking about buying one and after all of this he’s changed his mind.

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2 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

A large number of electric car purchasers bought them for the “I don’t have to pay for the electricity” aspect because a lot of the large businesses have solar car chargers installed in their parking lots and don’t charge for the recharging. A relative of mine and her husband both bought one and where they worked they could charge for free and then Covid 19 hit and they were forced to work from home where they didn’t have a car charger. In the town they live in they had to pull a permit for the electric work that was needed to install the charger, that took a little over 2 months and then another 6 weeks to get it installed. Once it was installed they couldn’t believe how high their electric bill was so they opted to have solar power installed on the house. Well guess what? They had to pull a permit for that too and when the system was finally installed it took the power company nearly 2 months to come out and inspect and sign off on it. Their dad was talking about buying one and offer all of this he’s changed his mind.

And if you didn’t pull the permits and just did it yourself you’d probably have the police showing up at your house looking for your illegal indoors grow operation :) 

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18 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

And if you didn’t pull the permits and just did it yourself you’d probably have the police showing up at your house looking for your illegal indoors grow operation :) 

 

And, after finding no illegal grow house, they'd call code enforcement...worse, much worse.

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