Toyota president on electric cars

[Blackwater 53393]

2 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

I am not a greenie or Elon Musk devotee - but I am realistic and I do my own research; the electric vehicle is the widespread future of automotive and the future is coming fast.

Read the post in the Team SASS forum that I mentioned above.

 

The only way that electric vehicles will become “the widespread future” is if the continued artificially created market is allowed to continue!!

 

With the exception of individual emissions of the vehicles themselves, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the current and or near future electric vehicles that is truly beneficial to the environment.

 

The artificial market, without subsidy from the government and bureaucratic and political meddling, cannot support itself and, with respect to the environment, should NOT be allowed to!!

[Still hand Bill]

30 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A lot longer than the gas engine will.

The battery packs are running a single small draw heater with the sole intention of creating heat - the gasoline is operating a large consumption item for the resulting heat that is a byproduct of operation.

And without choking the occupants out of a gas vehicle that is not moving and risking carbon monoxide poisoning by the tail pipe getting covered in snow.

 

Additionally with the use of home charging - the electric is much more likely to be at or near full charge than the gasoline car is likely to be full.

 

I am not a greenie or Elon Musk devotee - but I am realistic and I do my own research; the electric vehicle is the widespread future of automotive and the future is coming fast.

My Bolt pulled between 2 and 3kw to run the heater, then add that to the base load of 1-2kw of just having the car on, it could theoretically go for 10-20 hrs for heat only.  But if it’s really cold the batteries won’t have as much capacity so it will be less.  
 

we have a long way to go to replace all vehicles and usage with EV’s. Battery tech just isn’t there for long distance travel or towing.  Then you get into charge capability.   Just look at the tesla semi.   It was released, what 4-5 years ago, I don’t see them on the road taking over.  This is a hard case to crack, high drag/power and long distances.  
 

The physics are actually quite simple, an electric motor is 3-4 x as efficient as gasoline.   Gasoline contains roughly 33kwh per gallon.   A gas car is between 20-30% efficient, and electric 90-95%. Pretty easy to do the math from there on what it takes to make a vehicle work.  Those that are blinded by personality tend to overlook the shortcomings and those agains the tech are overblowing them.   The truth is somewhere in the middle. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

20 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

The only way that electric vehicles will become “the widespread future” is if the continued artificially created market is allowed to continue!!

 

With the exception of individual emissions of the vehicles themselves, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the current and or near future electric vehicles that is truly beneficial to the environment.

I dont think you understand marketplace.

I don't think the environment will be the big tipping point for the transition.

 

It will be:

Vehicles that last longer - Electric motors will long out last gasoline engines.

 

More powerful vehicles - again Electric motors have already shown their superiority in this regard.

 

Range - 90% of us drive less than 50 miles a day.  And the range of offered electric vehicles is increasing everyday and 500 miles on a charge will soon be the new standard.

 

Infrastructure is being built daily with more and more charging points.  With home charging electric costs less than 70% of gasoline per mile driven.

 

Less fluctuation in fueling costs with zero dependence on foreign energy sources.

 

A much needed push to update and modernize our existing outdated powergrid with wind, solar and nuclear power. 

 

And the issue of battery replacement will fix itself as the market demands more economical results and right to repair laws become the norm.  The Tesla battery issues/ costs are solely because of the Elon Musk attitude of vehicle as a computer/ phone (use until a better model comes out then dispose).  

 

From rocks scratched against rocks

To ink from a quill on parchment

To a pencil on paper

To a manual typewriter

To electrons on a screen floating in the ether.

 

You can embrace the future or fear it - but it's coming either way.

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

a good illustration of the facts surrounding this subject, go over to the Team SASS forum and read completely, the OP in “Off Topic but shows

 

As is said about any article with anything positive to say about EVs, "LOOK WHO DID THE STUDY!!  NO WONDER!!!"

 

 

[DeaconKC]

I do not see all electric vehicles becoming the norm in the near future because the infrastructure will take too long to spread across the larger geographic areas like the US, Canada or Australia. Now, I am looking and considering a hybrid as my next vehicle due to the ability to use either resource. If you regularly travel more than 200 miles, electric is not a realistic option right now. That will change, but at this time, most vehicles need the ability to go longer distances.

[Captain Bill Burt]

If the F150 Lightning was a hybrid I would be looking at it pretty closely. 

 

Finances permitting I wouldn't mind getting a Camaro ZL1 with the 650 hp ICE engine, while GM is still making them. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I dont think you understand marketplace.

The marketplace is artificial, a house of cards that has been created and maintained with massive government subsidies. Take those away, and the market collapses overnight.

 

I don't think the environment will be the big tipping point for the transition.

Nope, the meddling of the government to give favored status to one industry and coercive policies designed to eliminate the competition will determine the transition.

 

It will be:

Vehicles that last longer - Electric motors will long out last gasoline engines.

But the batteries don't. And let's be clear, those worn out batteries can't be maintained, repaired or rebuilt. They either work, or they don't. When they don't, these extremely toxic items go into the landfill. Billions of them.

 

My PAID FOR cars are 25 and 17 years old with a lot of life left in them. God knows how many multi-thousand dollar battery packs I'd have gone thru by now.

 

Range - 90% of us drive less than 50 miles a day.  And the range of offered electric vehicles is increasing everyday and 500 miles on a charge will soon be the new standard.

I don't know where your 90% figure comes from, but those who live between urban centers would disagree with you 

 

Infrastructure is being built daily with more and more charging points.  With home charging electric costs less than 70% of gasoline per mile driven.

Yeah, just think of all those paved wastelands with acres and acres of cars parked for 8 hours or more for charging

 

Less fluctuation in fueling costs with zero dependence on foreign energy sources.

Uh huh. Europe bet heavily on renewable energy and the people are paying heavily for that failed investment. They're rapidly becoming dependent on Putin's Russia to meet their energy needs

 

A much needed push to update and modernize our existing outdated powergrid with wind, solar and nuclear power. 

Look how well wind and solar are working in California and Europe. It's not. It's totally dependent on weather and will never be able to provide reliable power generation.

 

And the issue of battery replacement will fix itself as the market demands more economical results and right to repair laws become the norm.  The Tesla battery issues/ costs are solely because of the Elon Musk attitude of vehicle as a computer/ phone (use until a better model comes out then dispose).  

Yeah, it's all Elon's fault. But I'm sure a few unicorns pixie dust will fix things.

 

You can embrace the future or fear it - but it's coming either way.

Paid for with billions and soon to be trillions of your tax dollars, whether you want it or not

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

12 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

The marketplace is artificial, a house of cards that has been created and maintained with massive government subsidies. Take those away, and the market collapses overnight.

 

'79 auto industry bailout?

'08 auto industry bailout?

 

Kinda like the feds subsidizing.  What did that second bailout cost the taxpayers?  $15,000,000,000 or so?

 

And oil industry federal subsidies?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

19 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

'79 auto industry bailout?

'08 auto industry bailout?

 

Kinda like the feds subsidizing.  What did that second bailout cost the taxpayers?  $15,000,000,000 or so?

 

And oil industry federal subsidies?

Where does that $15 trillion figure come from?

[Slapshot]

56 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

  2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I dont think you understand marketplace.

The marketplace is artificial, a house of cards that has been created and maintained with massive government subsidies. Take those away, and the market collapses overnight.

 

I don't think the environment will be the big tipping point for the transition.

Nope, the meddling of the government to give favored status to one industry and coercive policies designed to eliminate the competition will determine the transition.

 

It will be:

Vehicles that last longer - Electric motors will long out last gasoline engines.

But the batteries don't. And let's be clear, those worn out batteries can't be maintained, repaired or rebuilt. They either work, or they don't. When they don't, these extremely toxic items go into the landfill. Billions of them.

 

My PAID FOR cars are 25 and 17 years old with a lot of life left in them. God knows how many multi-thousand dollar battery packs I'd have gone thru by now.

 

Range - 90% of us drive less than 50 miles a day.  And the range of offered electric vehicles is increasing everyday and 500 miles on a charge will soon be the new standard.

I don't know where your 90% figure comes from, but those who live between urban centers would disagree with you 

 

Infrastructure is being built daily with more and more charging points.  With home charging electric costs less than 70% of gasoline per mile driven.

Yeah, just think of all those paved wastelands with acres and acres of cars parked for 8 hours or more for charging

 

Less fluctuation in fueling costs with zero dependence on foreign energy sources.

Uh huh. Europe bet heavily on renewable energy and the people are paying heavily for that failed investment. They're rapidly becoming dependent on Putin's Russia to meet their energy needs

 

A much needed push to update and modernize our existing outdated powergrid with wind, solar and nuclear power. 

Look how well wind and solar are working in California and Europe. It's not. It's totally dependent on weather and will never be able to provide reliable power generation.

 

And the issue of battery replacement will fix itself as the market demands more economical results and right to repair laws become the norm.  The Tesla battery issues/ costs are solely because of the Elon Musk attitude of vehicle as a computer/ phone (use until a better model comes out then dispose).  

Yeah, it's all Elon's fault. But I'm sure a few unicorns pixie dust will fix things.

 

You can embrace the future or fear it - but it's coming either way.

Paid for with billions and soon to be trillions of your tax dollars, whether you want it or not

 

Well said in red.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

The manufacture of one Battery for One electric Car, produces more CO2 emissions than driving a Chevy Cruze  20,000 KM. per year for 8 years !

And the average battery life of said battery is only 6 years, and then what do you do with that Toxic waste of a Battery.... And we have not even considered the environmental cost of producing the Electricity to run said Item. 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Subdeacon Joe]

33 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Where does that $15 trillion figure come from?

A typo, good catch. Should have been $15 billion.   

 

However, the point is the same... taxpayers subsidies to the auto industry.

1 minute ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

manufacture of one Battery for One electric Car, produces more CO2 emissions than driving a Chevy Cruze  20,000 KM. per year for 8 years !

 

Source?  

[Blackwater 53393]

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I dont think you understand marketplace.

I don't think the environment will be the big tipping point for the transition.

 I do, in fact, have a fair understanding of the “market”.  Anyone less than half blind can see the meddling by government and bureaucrats in the market in the name of environmental preservation. Telling the public that these changes are essential to the future of the planet and setting arbitrary standards that tilt the playing field to suit their purposes.

 

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

.

 

More powerful vehicles - again Electric motors have already shown their superiority in this regard.

 
Only in very narrow circumstances have electric vehicles demonstrated any real advantage over internal combustion engines. Internal combustion engines now regularly outlast the vehicles they are sold in!!  The heavy truck industry now sells new “GLIDER” vehicles. Trucks with no engine/transmission in them so that owners can transplant their used power plant into a new truck!! EVs have equally demonstrated that their shortcomings are difficult and costly to overcome. Perhaps when these difficulties are overcome, the EV industry will build “GLIDERS” to replace worn out vehicles in the manner described above, but I don’t recommend that you hold your breath!!.’

 

Range - 90% of us drive less than 50 miles a day.  And the range of offered electric vehicles is increasing everyday and 500 miles on a charge will soon be the new standard. 

Range is less an issue than than the time required to recharge. While recharge time has improved drastically, it has a LONG way to go!  The fact that non electric resources are STILL required, (and in abundance) to facilitate the recharge is another strike in the count.  That those resources are often derived from “carbon based” materials or less reliable solar or wind sources makes their use again less sensible.

 

Infrastructure is being built daily with more and more charging points.  With home charging electric costs less than 70% of gasoline per mile driven.

Actual building of sufficient infrastructure is likely decades away from adequately supporting an even moderate nationwide, (forget about worldwide) movement to electric vehicles. We haven’t built ANY new, large scale, electricity producing facilities in decades and the likelihood of any real, non nuclear facilities being built is somewhere equivalent to that of world peace breaking out! When places like California and New York can’t even produce reliable electricity for the current population, it’s doubtful that they can update the system anywhere NEAR fast enough or reliably enough to support such a increase in demand.

 

 

Less fluctuation in fueling costs with zero dependence on foreign energy sources. 
 

So! You’re willing to accept dependence on foreign chemical and mineral resources, (resources that we have little to NONE of) in place of those that we DO have?  Compared to the damage inflicted on the environment by the mining of lithium, not to mention the amount of “fossil fuel” needed to complete the process, the cost of and resulting environmental damage incurred in the retrieval of fossil fuels is miniscule!!  Even the open strip mines of the coal industry pale in comparison!
 

 

A much needed push to update and modernize our existing outdated powergrid with wind, solar and nuclear power. 

 

Considering that no new NUCLEAR power plant has been built in over three decades, and given the current socio-political climate in this country opposing any such new construction, added to the opposition to building coal fired, petroleum powered, and even hydroelectric plants, what do we have left as an option??  These people only know that the power comes out of that little thingy on the wall!! They can’t conceive that that upside down funnel or those chimneys are there to make the lights come on!!  And if that doesn’t change, major infrastructure improvement will be far too slow to support massive EV increases. Wind and solar are unreliable and storage technology is almost entirely nonexistent at the levels needed.

 

And the issue of battery replacement will fix itself as the market demands more economical results and right to repair laws become the norm.  The Tesla battery issues/ costs are solely because of the Elon Musk attitude of vehicle as a computer/ phone (use until a better model comes out then dispose).  

 

Right to repair laws have little to do with the cost of replacement parts. When only the automobile manufacturers make the replacement parts, there’s NO INCENTIVE to make the replacement batteries more affordable!

Storage and disposal of depleted or damaged batteries and related materials has not even BEGUN to be worked out! Recycling isn’t being seriously researched, or even being seriously discussed!!  And while the electric motors may be VERY durable, all the related parts and pieces are no better!  Used electric motors, along with dead EV batteries, will become the next landfill problem that we will have to deal with.
 

As to that right to repair thing. Fewer people even try to repair their own vehicles! Those that do, don’t have a clue as to how to rewind an armature and wouldn’t have a clue at to how to remove/replace the battery/batteries in one of these vehicles, much less have the equipment/facility to do so!

 

From rocks scratched against rocks

To ink from a quill on parchment

To a pencil on paper

To a manual typewriter

To electrons on a screen floating in the ether.

 

You can embrace the future or fear it - but it's coming either way. 

I don’t fear the future! I look to it with open eyes, an open mind, and a fairly thorough knowledge of the past to guide me! I’ll hold the future at arm’s length and deal with it from a position of experience!

 

 

EXPAND THE QUOTED POST ABOVE!!
 

I’m mostly optimistic about the future!  I hope that those who will lead us in the future will learn from history and heed its lessons! It’s readily obvious that those who lead us now never will!!

 

 I sincerely wish that we had batteries the size of postage stamps that would power the Empire State Building for weeks without recharging!

 

Wishing won’t make it happen! Subsidizing and legislating won’t either!  Let the free market, unincumbered by tampering, work the way it can and you may see advances in technology beyond even your wildest dreams!

 

Keep tampering with it and you remove the incentive to really improve things!!  Stop trying to cram them down our throats like the government is trying to do and if they are REALLY the answer, the public will pick up EVs and run with ‘em!!

[Subdeacon Joe]

Reuters article says about 14,000 miles is parity.  In Norway it's under 9,000 miles.

Call it two years, not 8.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 minute ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

and legislating won’t either!  Let the free market, unincumbered by tampering

 

 

So no more subsidies for the auto and oil industries.

[Blackwater 53393]

22 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

So no more subsidies for the auto and oil industries.

With the exception of Chrysler, what you’re calling subsidies are/were loans that were paid back, ahead of time and with interest.  Those loans allowed hundreds of thousands of people to keep their jobs and resulted in revenues far outstripping the initial investment.

 

These most recent executive directives and bureaucratic decisions are real and actual SUBSIDIES with NO REQUIREMENT of the recipients to repay or even actually produce goods or provide services!!

 

And remember!  Any subsidy to the oil industry is more than offset by restrictions to drilling and refining!  We have enough of our own oil and natural gas to meet our own needs for the foreseeable future, but the government prevents the industry from extracting it!

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

17 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

A typo, good catch. Should have been $15 billion.   

 

However, the point is the same... taxpayers subsidies to the auto industry.

 

 

Subsidies to an industry is one thing, but tipping the playing field within that industry to favor a particular technology is another matter entirely. I think we should be able to choose a technology that best suits our needs, not have the government take away choices and ram something down our throats. 

[Slapshot]

57 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

So no more subsidies for the auto and oil industries.

So what offshore companies are getting subsidies? I'd like to know if I need to be mad at the offshore company I work for. Because although I'm a offshore worker I haven't heard of any subsidies being given to drilling companies.

 

IMO thinking that EV's are cleaner to produce and operate is akin to thinking the Democrats and the rest of the politicians are the answer to everything. Thinking that we as a country with our old and deteriorating electric grid are going to be able to handle just 1 EV per family is per folly. Thinking solar and wind power will ever keep up with usage is folly also. 

[Still hand Bill]

Lets to the math, 3.22 trillion miles driven in the us per year.  Lets take an easy math route and assume 3.2 m/kw a bit low for today’s vehicles, but will be too high once the whole fleet is electric.  So that means 1 trillion kw would be needed to replace all ice vehicles.  Generation capacity is around 4 trillion kwh, so we would have to add 25% to the current grid to power all the cars.   Not impossible, but not really probable.  

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Up here In Canada the Federal Government Paid 60,000 dollars of Taxpayer Money per Unit For Companies to Buy EV Tractors, Plus 30,000 dollars per unit per year for operational Costs. This waste of Taxpayer funds given to Big Trucking Companies from down Eastern Canada lasted for 4 years about 6 months longer than the trucks Did !!!

The "Free" money ran out and the trucks are now Parked with No One wanting to take responsibility for what to do with them, so there they sit rotting....

 

Jabez Cowboy  

[Utah Bob #35998]

In 1922 we used propeller driven biplanes. No telling what will be developed in the next 100 years. 
If we can avoid killing humanity off. 

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

If we can avoid killing humanity off. 

 

Of which the means of doing so has also rapidly advanced!!!!

[Buckshot Bob]

13 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

'79 auto industry bailout?

'08 auto industry bailout?

 

Kinda like the feds subsidizing.  What did that second bailout cost the taxpayers?  $15,000,000,000 or so?

 

And oil industry federal subsidies?

And they should have been allowed to fail , just like electric vehicles should not be subsidized right now . The government is terrible at picking winners and losers. The market may not always be right but it has a substantially better record than the government  

[Buckshot Bob]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

In 1922 we used propeller driven biplanes. No telling what will be developed in the next 100 years. 
If we can avoid killing humanity off. 

It is simply amazing how much the advance in technology is compounding upon itself. When I was a kid watching  Star Trek I never imagined I’d have something way better than a communicator in my lifetime. When I was a kid I remember my grandma telling me how lucky I was to not have to ride a horse everywhere and have indoor plumbing. 

[Krazy Kajun]

One of the great fallacies being communicated is that there will be enough electrical generation with the expansion of the renewables market.....solar, wind and some hydro. With the charging of mass numbers of the consumer's electrical vehicles taking place during the night time hours please consider this; the sun does not shine at night and the wind won't normally be blowing steady all night (depending on location).  This means that all of that power has to come from currently the currently deployed generation mix....coal, natural gas and nuclear. With the environmental folks clamoring for the complete elimination of coal due to stack emissions and the complete elimination of nuclear due to storage of spent rods the electrical generation facilities owners will be looking for options to replace those assets. Natural gas is now being targeted by the environmental enthusiasts for elimination as well....New York City has now outlawed the creation of any new natural gas connections for new construction in their city. So look for a reduction in night time electrical generation assets (natural gas, electric and solar).  In order for the generation capacity required for the night time charging there will have to be a HUGE amount of energy storage facilities built and strategically placed all around the country in locations that will adequately served the electrical demands of that particular region.  Right now I don't see any storage technologies that would be adequate for this nor have the capacities.  And if huge amounts of batteries are installed for energy storage facilities that will eat into the batteries being required for the electrical vehicles.

 

Also please consider that the current electrical distribution infrastructure is constructed for current electrical loads with some growth potential.   The electrical distribution and transmission companies charged with building and maintaining the infrastructure will not be constructing huge oversized delivery systems in anticipation of this enormous loading being expected.  The amount of money required to do so is not available to them at no cost. The consumers will have to be for these vast amounts of infrastructure in advance of the construction happening.  This means a sizable increase in electrical rates now to cover construction of facilities not yet being used.  The use will increase as the electrical vehicles are proliferate within their service area. The ratepayers will not stand for that. If government subsidies are provided to privately owned companies to fund this huge new investment in the construction of the electrical capacity increases in infrastructure required the taxpayers are on the hook, we all know how that will be received.

 

I see many hurdles that will severely slow the widespread adoption and successful rollout of electric vehicles nationwide.  I think it will be a slow dribble until massive amounts of money are spent and massive amounts of infrastructure are constructed.  The hype is real but the actual adoption will be a slow roll for a good while, IMHO.

 

Kajun

 

[Rooster Cognizant]

On 1/15/2022 at 5:26 PM, Buckshot Bear said:

And what happens to the billions of batteries at end of life?

 

Right now, a lot of Tesla battery packs are recycled and turned into their home "wall" unit. 

China leads the world in EV batter production, and also battery recycling. Our amount of recycling will get better over time. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

7 minutes ago, Rooster Cognizant said:

 

Right now, a lot of Tesla battery packs are recycled and turned into their home "wall" unit. 

China leads the world in EV batter production, and also battery recycling. Our amount of recycling will get better over time. 

 

 

Also:

Tesla’s Approach to Recycling is the Way of the Future for Sustainable Production | by John Forfar | Tradr | Medium

 

 

[Rooster Cognizant]

I'm not sure how the concept of Electric Vehicles became such a left/right - liberal/conservative hot topic, but in generalities, it seems to have gone that way. I mean, in many cases we are talking about traditional conservative values of inventing, entrepreneurship, done by companies wanting to reduce govt regulations, all in a vehicle with instant torque. 

 

EV's or ICE vehicles are just tools to get something done. As with anything, just pick the best tool for the job for your individual conditions. 

Gasoline is incredibly energy dense, like 1000 sticks of dynamite per tank full. The downside is gas engines are very inefficient. If the gas engine was as efficient as an electric motor, you'd only need to fill up an F150 with 5 gallons of gas at a time.  It's why we don't use huge internal combustion engines to generate electricity, there are much more efficient, and cleaner, methods.

 

Electric motors are way more efficient than gas engines. Downside is that the batteries are not nearly as energy dense as gasoline. Thus you need the weight of multiple tanks of gas, just to go a couple hundred miles. Battery technology and recycling is much better than they have been (just like gas engines are much cleaner and more efficient than they were just 30 years ago), and when the EV makers transition to solid state batteries (in development), then that will (A) increase energy density or range, (B) increase battery life span before needing replacement, (C) reduce fire risks. 

Charge time with rapid charging has come down: still not as fast as filling a gas tank, but Tesla's supercharging stations have at least made long trips possible, within their network. We need better rapid charging infrastructure for non-tesla's before other brands become viable for long trips.

 

So when picking the best tool for the job, EV's are better at locations with higher population densities. Where one typically has a shorter commute, a shorter drive to places like the gym, grocery store, doctor, etc. Gas engines still rule where people are doing lots of miles per week, and totally rule if doing any kind of towing.

 

If we examine the very first Toyota Prius hybrid, it was not designed to provide better mileage, but rather to provide better emissions in cities like Tokyo; moving from one light to the next light. One other reason an EV can make sense in an urban or near urban setting is you are moving where the emissions are created away from the higher population. Some people won't like that idea, but it should improve the air quality in many cities over time. 

 

Personally, as a two car household, we could do just fine with one EV and one gas car, picking the best one for what's needed that day.

 

 

 

[Rooster Cognizant]

1 hour ago, Krazy Kajun said:

One of the great fallacies being communicated is that there will be enough electrical generation with the expansion of the renewables market.....solar, wind and some hydro...

 

 

I don't know, time will tell. Let me paraphrase your statement though...
 

"One of the great fallacies being communicated is that we will run out of crude by 20xx year" - a ton of people said we'd run out of oil.  Yet through innovation and technology we found ways of efficiently getting crude using other methods, locations, etc.  Hopefully the same will be true for electrical generation. 

 

[Slapshot]

Not sure about running out of crude. There are major finds found every year seems like. Hell my rig just set the world record for a DP'd vessel in shallow water. There is plenty of ground in the gulf that could be drilled. The biggest hurdle is the current administration just as it was with Obummer. We went from totally independent of others for oil to being dependency again because of our current ADMINISTRATION.

 

How will we ever generate enough power to power all the EV's they want to put out there? We won't thats how. Not without some kind of earth shattering discovery or invention.

 

I know, I know, global warming /climate change environmental reasons. Ya know the polar bears and the ice bergs melting away. How long have we heard it? People need to wake up as see the propaganda the Gov and media is throwing out there. 

[Dubious Don #56333]

On 1/16/2022 at 10:08 AM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Or 45 minutes every 300 miles.  Surprised that you didn't use the overnight or longer for a 110 Level 1 charger.

 

So, anything smaller than a Deuce-and-a-half is right out.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol, got that right. If I had the space, I'd have a deuce! They're not exactly a joy to drive, but they can carry.

[Clay Mosby]

This was likely mentioned several times in this thread already, but I'd like to add my 2 cents.

 

If America had the battery technology, the motor technology and the electrical infrastructure to support over 250 million electric vehicles needing to be charged. And IF electric cars were as economical to purchase and maintain as gasoline powered ones, then fine, lets go electric. But we have none of that. Most electric cars have very limited range, and those that have decent range are either prohibitively expensive or highly experimental. And our electrical grid? We already have power shortages and outages without the load of say 250,000,000 cars. 

And what about the pollution? Pollution from the manufacturing of batteries, and cars, and from coal fired electrical plants. Yes, coal fired because the tree huggers basically shut down the nuclear power generating capacity. And don't start on "clean" energy. We are nowhere near the cost effectiveness of wind, wave or solar generated electricity. The debacle last year with the failure of such systems during a massive storm proved that.

I'm 70 now, and I seriously doubt I'll live to see widespread electric vehicle usage. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I doubt it.  As for me going electric, the day AFTER they give me an electric pickup, FREE, and the day after they wire my house, FREE, for recharging said truck, and I get FREE electricity to charge, then I MIGHT consider driving an electric vehicle.

 

Rant off. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

It's interesting that all the anti-EV people always spout off about "Well, the mining and production of batteries cause more pollution than driving (insert favorite number of miles or years) in a gas car!"  But they never mention the pollution caused by the mining and production of those same gas cars.
Again, they aren't the panacea that a certain party claims them to be.  And until we solve the infrastructure issues (build more nuclear power plants) they will have limited appeal to those in rural areas because of lack of charging stations. But for many they are good fit.  The savings in fuel over the Tundra we had makes the monthly payment.  No oil changes.  No belts.  No radiator flushes.  OK, so after 8 to 10 years have to replace the battery.  Yes, it is expensive.  But if you take an honest look at it, if you set aside the $100 every 3,000 mile that you would spend on oil changes, the money for radiator flushes, plug wires, other regular servicing, you will have more than enough to pay for the replacement.  One hit instead of nickel and diming you .  (OK, REAL men all do all their own servicing for five bucks...but then there are the 95% who don't have the space, the knowhow, the time, the inclination to do it themselves)

[Slapshot]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:22 PM, Blackwater 53393 said:

With the exception of Chrysler, what you’re calling subsidies are/were loans that were paid back, ahead of time and with interest.  Those loans allowed hundreds of thousands of people to keep their jobs and resulted in revenues far outstripping the initial investment.

 

These most recent executive directives and bureaucratic decisions are real and actual SUBSIDIES with NO REQUIREMENT of the recipients to repay or even actually produce goods or provide services!!

 

And remember!  Any subsidy to the oil industry is more than offset by restrictions to drilling and refining!  We have enough of our own oil and natural gas to meet our own needs for the foreseeable future, but the government prevents the industry from extracting it!

I can vouch for this at least with 2 wannabe Presidents. Been offshore since 96 and can tell you the 2 biggest hits to oil exploration offshore and they both are communist democrats. We went from fully oil independent with Trump to back to being forced dependent on others for oil. Not because we can't produce it or are running out of it because of people in office pushing a agenda.

 

I would like to know how we are going to generate enough electricity to charge all these EV's that some, say are so great and the best thing since sliced bread? Please explain that one to me as I don't see it happening.

 

We have states that can't get enough electricity right now much less when 276 million EV's are trying to charge their batteries? And how is it a Electric motor out lasts a petro engine? As a electrician offshore I can tell you bearings go out every day, batteries fail and reach their end of life in 5-6 years, and electronics fail all the time just as in petro burners. I guess toxic waste and gas produced even by recycling the old batteries isn't a concern. And we all know that the batteries will be recycled and not just thrown in the fields. We also know the Government won't require a tax or a recycling fee, much less them or business sticking a disposal fee on them. 

 

But you have to wonder if the EV's will be just like the solar panel push and subsidies by the federal Government? I mean every house in the US has solar panels now. Oh wait maybe not. But it was and is the future right solar panel and wind mills? Yeah just not drinking the kool-aide on all this EV, solar panel , wind mill, enough charging stations ect.

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

I have no problem with EVs for those who like and want them! I DO have a problem with the production and disposal of the batteries as it stands today. That part of the EV is absolutely unacceptable to me! It is entirely more harmful to the planet per KWH produced than the worst petroleum retrieval and refining process in operation today and worse than even coal processing needed to supply the electricity needed to charge those batteries.  When/if this obstacle is overcome, (the Tesla response is still in its infancy and there’s little actual proof that it will work on a large scale or that the companies that are mentioned can and will faithfully perform those processes) I’ll be satisfied with the movement.

 

My biggest objection however, is the political and bureaucratic tampering!!  Instances like the California governor and the legislature REQUIRING that ONLY electric powered vehicles and machinery be used or allowed is TYRANNY and it’s exclusionary!!  Forcing individuals and small companies to have to replace their equipment in order to do business or maintain their homes is JUST PLAIN WRONG!!  I have a battery powered leaf blower and weed eater. I like them for small, quick cleanups around the house. I also keep a couple of gasoline powered weed eaters because the battery powered one only runs so long on a recharge and spare batteries cost the equivalent of two or more years worth of gasoline!! I see quite a few small yard care and mowing outfits that do pretty well by hustling around and cutting and trimming yards all day, every day!  Most of them started with one mower and maybe a couple of weed eaters. Now they have three or four mowers, half a dozen weed eaters, a couple of leaf blowers, and maybe an edger.  These machines have to run almost constantly!  Imagine the cost of keeping enough batteries to run all those machines and the problem with keeping all of those batteries charged so that they can keep moving and not have to stop while they recharge!!  Never mind the expense of replacing all that equipment!! Do they even make industrial grade mowers with fifty inch and larger mower decks??  How quickly can you recharge the battery on one?  How much do they cost??  This is just one example of the government cramming something down the throat of the public!!

 

WHAT’S NEXT??