Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 G'day all, Yesterday did some precision shooting of my NMV's and at 7 yards the shots printed 6" low. My wife was a little to the left and I was a little to the right, so that's trigger release but we were both repeatedly 6" low at just 7 yards. Got my preferred load now and most likely won't be changing it, have you all altered your front sights if your pistols POA was low or have you adjusted how you aim? Not really keen to jump in and lower those front sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapshot Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Yes last week filed mine a little to get really close to what I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Before you do that what caliber and load are you using? Once the front sight is filed the damage is basically irreparable. I personnally am very reluctant to buy a gun with the front sight filed as I have no idea what sight picture or load was used by the person that did the filing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapshot Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 I guess it depends if you want to hold the front sight way over or have a sight picture closer to correct or correct. Sights can be replaced they sell them on Midwayusa. And while it is a extra step to do if buying the gun used from someone. Its not that hard of a deal to get taken care of. I guess blued guns would be harder mine are stainless though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Have you ever replaced any revolver sights? What I am saying is that filing a front sight should not be the first thing done. It should be the last. Especially given the sloppy job a lot of people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 8 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Before you do that what caliber and load are you using? Once the front sight is filed the damage is basically irreparable. I personnally am very reluctant to buy a gun with the front sight filed as I have no idea what sight picture or load was used by the person that did the filing. Larsen, really really hesitant to do anything permanent. .38 3.4gr ADI AP50N 125gr projectile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Creek,5759 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 I purchased a Revolver a few years ago . That was filed down, it shot way high for my taste. Took a Revolver i had and measured the front sight on it . Cut out a piece of steel , the hight i wanted . Dove tailed both sights together . Shoots where i want it to . You really have to look close to see what was done . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said: Larsen, really really hesitant to do anything permanent. .38 3.4gr ADI AP50N 125gr projectile With .38s it is harder to regulate POA/POI. With .45s varying the bullet weight and velocity can make a big difference. If you like that load and it shoots well filing the sights may be your only real option without changing your sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: With .38s it is harder to regulate POA/POI. With .45s varying the bullet weight and velocity can make a big difference. If you like that load and it shoots well filing the sights may be your only real option without changing your sight picture. Thanks Larsen, shooting steel we've just been aiming (well you know how much aiming really happens when you're going fast) at the top and letting the bullets fall onto the plates and been doing ok. Surprised to see how low the pistols were shooting yesterday (we're both 'A' Grade bullseye competitors) on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 7yds = 21' Move back to 50' and try again. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 If you shooting it precision and you have the top of the front site in line with the top of the rear site, (which is where it should be say for a factory load) then it will be low. But CAS is not a precision game, you're not going be waiting for such time to line it up there. Nearly all of the time you'd want to acquire a quick sight picture so the front site will be higher thus shoot where you are aiming, not where the gun is aiming. Also with our lighter loads the bullet is dropping slight anyway. So work out how much you need to show to get a quick picture and work from there. Your load is fine and should shoot a good group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 50 feet. That's 16 1/2 yards! I would have to switch to magnum primers to get my CAS loads to go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said: If you shooting it precision and you have the top of the front site in line with the top of the rear site, (which is where it should be say for a factory load) then it will be low. But CAS is not a precision game, you're not going be waiting for such time to line it up there. Nearly all of the time you'd want to acquire a quick sight picture so the front site will be higher thus shoot where you are aiming, not where the gun is aiming. Also with our lighter loads the bullet is dropping slight anyway. So work out how much you need to show to get a quick picture and work from there. Your load is fine and should shoot a good group. Thanks Jackaroo, I said to Larsen above in one of my replies - Quote Thanks Larsen, shooting steel we've just been aiming (well you know how much aiming really happens when you're going fast) at the top and letting the bullets fall onto the plates and been doing ok. Surprised to see how low the pistols were shooting yesterday (we're both 'A' Grade bullseye competitors) on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 I use a reasonably fast load for 38's, 130gr bulllet at 825fps. I shot the revolvers for Steel Challenge quite a bit. As a result, I filed the sites so that POI is at POA for 25 yards. At CAS distances (assuming my hands are stable due to a palsy), I can center punch a clay bird at 5 yards. Personally, I like POI and POA to match exactly. That way if a MD throws a "ketchup packet" shot into a stage, I know that if I do my part I'll hit it. Settle on your load first, then adjust the sight accordingly. VERY slowly, at the range, with a lot of test groups. If you go too far, it's a bit harder to put metal back on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapshot Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 36 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: Have you ever replaced any revolver sights? What I am saying is that filing a front sight should not be the first thing done. It should be the last. Especially given the sloppy job a lot of people do. nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc X Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 57 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said: Larsen, really really hesitant to do anything permanent. .38 3.4gr ADI AP50N 125gr projectile Can you get some heavier bullets to try? .38 responds well to weight change for vertical adjustment. I believe the factory regulates the sight for 158 gr bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Doc X said: Can you get some heavier bullets to try? .38 responds well to weight change for vertical adjustment. I believe the factory regulates the sight for 158 gr bullet. I have some 158gr that I haven't loaded yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapshot Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 The greater the weight the more the cost. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said: G'day all, Yesterday did some precision shooting of my NMV's and at 7 yards the shots printed 6" low. My wife was a little to the left and I was a little to the right, so that's trigger release but we were both repeatedly 6" low at just 7 yards. Got my preferred load now and most likely won't be changing it, have you all altered your front sights if your pistols POA was low or have you adjusted how you aim? Not really keen to jump in and lower those front sights. Before you file on them, shoot them while holding to see more front sight in the sight image. Use a felt tip marker to note about how much filing is needed. Then make the "f" decision. TMK, there is really no other easy way to bring a pistol to POA if it shoots low. But the amount you describe won't require much filing. Most pistols are made to shoot slightly low, to enable easy front sight correction to POA. The opposite--shooting too high-- is a much more difficult problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 43 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: Before you file on them, shoot them while holding to see more front sight in the sight image. Use a felt tip marker to note about how much filing is needed. Then make the "f" decision. TMK, there is really no other easy way to bring a pistol to POA if it shoots low. But the amount you describe won't require much filing. Most pistols are made to shoot slightly low, to enable easy front sight correction to POA. The opposite--shooting too high-- is a much more difficult problem. In the heat of 'battle' (when the buzzer goes) it hasn't been a real problem (actually had a few go over the steel) not a real big aimer on the clock (though my wife Jenorado is) just surpised to see how low the POI was yesterday. Just loathe to do anything permanent in a hurry. Need to shoot these a lot more yet. I've bought my wife a new pair of SS NMV so it will be interesting to try them out and see where there POI is next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Try putting the front sight 1/2 it's height above the top of the rear sight. Shoot at the bottom 1/3 of the target and with light loads it will usually hit in the center. Just focus on the tip of the front sight and make sure the post is on the target and it will hit higher. For CAS shooting I prefer to have the front sight filed to hit in the center. My son Cody James does not have his sights filed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Kirk James said: Try putting the front sight 1/2 it's height above the top of the rear sight. Shoot at the bottom 1/3 of the target and with light loads it will usually hit in the center. Just focus on the tip of the front sight and make sure the post is on the target and it will hit higher. For CAS shooting I prefer to have the front sight filed to hit in the center. My son Cody James does not have his sights filed. Yep what he said.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 Not sure why you are surprised, pretty sure the guns were not made to be spot on at 7 yards. Plus at that distance it is really a "point and shoot" situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 15 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: Not sure why you are surprised, pretty sure the guns were not made to be spot on at 7 yards. Plus at that distance it is really a "point and shoot" situation. So you're saying further away the POI would be higher??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 7 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said: So you're saying further away the POI would be higher??? Yes. The front sight is tall to file down for bullet weight vs POA/POI. I've had to file the front site down on all 4 of our Vaqueros. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/15/2022 at 1:39 PM, Kirk James said: Try putting the front sight 1/2 it's height above the top of the rear sight. Shoot at the bottom 1/3 of the target and with light loads it will usually hit in the center. Just focus on the tip of the front sight and make sure the post is on the target and it will hit higher. For CAS shooting I prefer to have the front sight filed to hit in the center. My son Cody James does not have his sights filed. Yep, what he says. It's a lot quicker,..and easier,... to focus and find half or a third whatever you need, than trying to put the top of front site to line up the top of the rear site. And filing it down to achieve that will see you slow as...............and end up shooting up, because you'll be focusing on seeing more front site, been there done that 25 years ago when I started. Just find your sight picture and muscle memory will take care of the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Right or wrong I file all of mine to make POI match POA at normal SASS distances. Like Doc said if I need to aim to hit a 6” target I want to be able to without having to apply Kentucky windage or elevation. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Buckshot Bear, You stated you are pretty dialed in on your load. If that is the case, put paper targets at 7-9 yards, sandbag your pistols and file the front sights down to where the front and rear sights are level, to the Point of impact of YOUR load. I try to get the POI of my pistols to appear right at or slightly above the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Before doing anything, you need to shoot at cas speed. What you see and when you pull the trigger will be much different than your bench rest shot. Slower bullets hit higher. Bullets are in barrel longer making it rise. Heavier bullets hit higher. More energy to move the bullet. Faster bullets hit lower. Bullets are in the barrel less time during the rise of the barrel. Lighter bullets hit lower. They move faster through the barrel quicker and before the barrel rises much. --------------------- Shoot the guns as is until you settle on one bullet and one charge. They see where the hits end up. Shoot this load and bullet until you hit the same place then you can make alterations to the gun sight. Another interesting note: Slower bullets tend to hit more left than faster bullets. Light bullets tend to hit more right than heavier bullets. This has to do with barrel twist during the shot. So just shoot an figure it out by where you bullets are hitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 10:39 PM, Kirk James said: Try putting the front sight 1/2 it's height above the top of the rear sight. Shoot at the bottom 1/3 of the target and with light loads it will usually hit in the center. Just focus on the tip of the front sight and make sure the post is on the target and it will hit higher. For CAS shooting I prefer to have the front sight filed to hit in the center. My son Cody James does not have his sights filed. There is more than one way to skin a cat and this thread has given multiple options. I'm in Kirk's son's camp on this one. I want to see my sights as quickly as possible, so I put a big set of brass sights on my Vaqueros (with those, putting metal back on the sight is easy). I see about a third of the front sight when I'm shooting and I 'aim' just below the midline of targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripsaw Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 My NMVs in .38 shoot a couple inches low using traditional sight picture. So I shoot them with the front blade clearly visible above the rear notch and hit point of aim with that sight picture. When I got a pair of 45s, they shot to POA with traditional sight picture, so I had to raise the front sight (added a brass sight) to get the same sight picture to which I've become accustomed. This is with my preferred match ammo/loads. I, too, was reluctant to file the front sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Try a set of these https://www.yankmachain.com I like mine , plus if you really want to get dialed in you can use the extra width of these to adjust poi for windage if needed by relieving the rear sight notch . Plus if you go too far just heat them up remove them and do over . But if you take your time and can hand file something square you should be all right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 My 45's shoot a couple inches low when actually aimed. I guess I just adjust to it as generally my misses go high. When a clay pigeon get thrown in I still seem to hit 'em. My shot gun hit left with right barrel and low on the other. I don't notice it and rarely mis a SG target. However, I loaned the SG to a pard who's SG broke and he noticed it immediately. I knew due to patterning it 10 years ago and never thought to mention it to him as it shoots fine for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 10:12 PM, Buckshot Bear said: In the heat of 'battle' (when the buzzer goes) it hasn't been a real problem (actually had a few go over the steel) not a real big aimer on the clock And we have the answer here. Everybody shoots too high under stress. You hold that front sight up where you can see it. I remember one sunny day In 1967 when I was watching tracers pass above my Huey and was glad the other guys were too excited to aim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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