.45-70 vs .450 Bushmaster — Cartridge Clash - This is a great read

[Charlie T Waite]

This Article shows newer is not necessarily better......

[Pat Riot]

From the article:

The .450 Bushmaster… is capable of delivering considerably more close-range punch than the 5.56 NATO.

I sure as heck hope so. Why do all these tactical twits compare everything to a round that was a joke 25+ years ago?

 

I considered assembling a .450 Bushmaster rifle. Then one day I bought a Henry single shot 45-70 and decided not to bother with the other. 

[Slapshot]

The 458 SOCOM would be a better comparison to the 45/70 since it uses the same bullets. As far as the 450 throwing more punch at close range than the 223/556 of course it does. As does the 44 mag throws a bigger punch than 9mm.

 

Apples to oranges. 

[Pat Riot]

6 hours ago, Slapshot said:

The 458 SOCOM would be a better comparison to the 45/70 since it uses the same bullets. As far as the 450 throwing more punch at close range than the 223/556 of course it does. As does the 44 mag throws a bigger punch than 9mm.

 

Apples to oranges. 

I am trying to remember why I had settled on the .450 Bushmaster over the SOCOM. I guess that really isn’t important any longer. 
 

 

 

 

That article had this little picture (on my iPhone) that said this:

45-70 GOV'T
HITS
• More high-energy, heavy-bullet loads
• Plenty of used rifles available
• Cowboy cool factor
MISSES
• Substantial kick with high-end loads
• Fewer low-cost production rifles
• Not legal for deer in all states

 

I wonder what states won’t allow a 45-70 for deer. I went and tried to look this up but couldn’t really find anything definitive. More importantly I am wondering “Why not?”

[Slapshot]

Yeah not sure why states wouldn't allow the straight walled 45/70. Might be a size issue or energy thing, not sure. Me I think I'd like to shoot a 45/70 and even have one for "when the elephant acts".

[Cholla]

I had a .450 Bushmaster when living in Indiana. The convoluted deer regulations at the time allowed the cartridge but didn’t allow the .45-70 unless the case was trimmed, which many deer hunters didn’t have the equipment to do. The same laws caused some other wildcat cartridges and weird versions of existing cartridges. The regulations required a minimum diameter, a maximum diameter, and a maximum length that meet pistol cartridge specifications. We ended up with folks paying huge money for rifles that fired the .358 WSSM, the .358 Indiana, and others. The cartridges were a hodgepodge mess as every custom gun maker had their own version using their own specs. The .450 Bushmaster was one of the few commercially available cartridges we could legally use for deer hunting in a rifle.

Within a few years the laws got even more convoluted when elected officials started trying to write laws that allowed their pet rifles. They finally got their act together the next year and made it so common deer rifles were allowed. My .450 Bushmaster became obsolete over night. The new regs were supposed to be tested for five years with the potential of reverting back. I have since moved to Arizona so no longer care. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

55 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

...
45-70 GOV'T
HITS
• More high-energy, heavy-bullet loads
• Plenty of used rifles available
• Cowboy cool factor
MISSES
• Substantial kick with high-end loads
• Fewer low-cost production rifles
• Not legal for deer in all states

 

I wonder what states won’t allow a 45-70 for deer. I went and tried to look this up but couldn’t really find anything definitive. More importantly I am wondering “Why not?”

 

Probably referring to those states that don't allow ANY rifles for deer hunting (i.e., SHOTGUN ONLY)

Hunting Shotgun Only States (imbmonsterbucks.com)

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

MA is bow, shotgun and "primitive weapons" (muzzleloaders) only.  No modern cartridge rifles.  

 

LL

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I am trying to remember why I had settled on the .450 Bushmaster over the SOCOM. I guess that really isn’t important any longer. 

Maybe not your reason, but over the counter availability is a big reason for some, as is the ability to use in an AR platform vs a single-shot or lever-action.

 

I think it's funny people trying to justify 450 Bushmaster/458 SOCOM/458 HAM'R/50 Beowulf as being better than the other. 

 

Even more funny, the number of people debating that don't even own, shoot or reload one of these cartridges.

[Still hand Bill]

2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

I wonder what states won’t allow a 45-70 for deer. I went and tried to look this up but couldn’t really find anything definitive. More importantly I am wondering “Why not?”

I think it’s only a few that have a cartridge max length.  I expect the rational was they didn’t want too much velocity and by limiting the case volume, you can limit velocity.  The whole straight wall rifle thing was an offshoot of shotgun deer hunting.  As I understand it, hunter numbers are declining and there was a push to allow easier methods of taking deer.   Those states had a concern that high powered rifles carry too far and you might shoot someone unintentionally.  Since large pistol rounds have similar ballistics to a shotgun slug, they were ok.   Short fat bullet going somewhat slowly so they are sub 200 yard cartridges.  
Iowa is one of those shotgun states, but no minimum length so 45-70 was legal.  This year it changed to 35 cal or bigger bullet and 500 ft-lbs min energy.  No more distinction of straight wall only.   So 35 Whelen, 375 H&h, 35 rem are all legal.  

imho the only reason the 450 bm came out was someone wanted a big bullet in an AR platform.   That’s why the pressure is so low, keep the bolt thrust low for a large diameter case.  The bolt can’t handle higher pressure as it was designed for the thrust of a 223 load.    A 45-70 won’t easily fit in an AR due to the rim.   If you want a faster 450 bm, look at the 45 raptor which is the same basic cartridge, but in a ar-10 platform so it can have higher bolt thrust and pressure. 

same with the 350 legend.  It’s only taken off due to it being a legal rifle cartridge in states that previously were only shotgun.  It’s also not nearly as much recoil as the 450bm or 45-70.   It fits in a ar style platform making it an easy option for anyone who already owns a 223 ar-15.  Just buy a new upper and you can go hunt deer.   Also it had a huge marketing push.  

 

[Slapshot]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

Maybe not your reason, but over the counter availability is a big reason for some, as is the ability to use in an AR platform vs a single-shot or lever-action.

 

I think it's funny people trying to justify 450 Bushmaster/458 SOCOM/458 HAM'R/50 Beowulf as being better than the other. 

 

Even more funny, the number of people debating that don't even own, shoot or reload one of these cartridges.

lol, I don't on any of them. But I know what my friends experience is with the socom. But you don't really have to reload or own one to compare the data to get a ideal. The mechanic owned a 50 beowulf and still owns the SOCOM. He said the 50 is restricted to the bullets for it and doesn't have a advantage over the SOCOM. He thinks in his opinion that the 450 Bushy can't compare to the SOCOM because of the wide range of the bullets and weights the SOCOM can use being same bullets as the 45/70. I would actually side with his opinion on that. About the heaviest a 450 is going to see is a 325-350 but a SOCOM can see much higher weights and still have case capacity when the 450 with heavies is loosing to much case capacity. JMO, but alas I don't own any of them so just going by data and the mechanics experience. 

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, Slapshot said:

lol, I don't on any of them. But I know what my friends experience is with the socom. But you don't really have to reload or own one to compare the data to get a ideal. The mechanic owned a 50 beowulf and still owns the SOCOM. He said the 50 is restricted to the bullets for it and doesn't have a advantage over the SOCOM. He thinks in his opinion that the 450 Bushy can't compare to the SOCOM because of the wide range of the bullets and weights the SOCOM can use being same bullets as the 45/70. I would actually side with his opinion on that. About the heaviest a 450 is going to see is a 325-350 but a SOCOM can see much higher weights and still have case capacity when the 450 with heavies is loosing to much case capacity. JMO, but alas I don't own any of them so just going by data and the mechanics experience. 

Appropriate projectiles are available for all of the cartridges to take most any North American game within 100 yards.  What one can kill, so can the others.

 

Yes, there are more projectiles available for some than for others.

 

None of these are appropriate, IMO, outside 100 yards (give or take a minor amount).  And, none are either better or worse than the time-honored .45-70 within the same distances.  They're just - different.

[Slapshot]

Appropriate projectiles are available for the 223 to kill most NA game animals. But it doesn't make it a equal. Nor is the 450 BM the equal to the 458, and nor is it equal to the 45/70. the only to that are close are the 458 SOCOM and the 45/70. Personally I'd take the 45/70 preferrably a double instead of a single. But a 458 would suffice.

 

But that is just my opinion on those calibers.

 

Slapshot

CPL-USMC

Sass# 111639

[sassnetguy50]

21 hours ago, Still hand Bill said:

I think it’s only a few that have a cartridge max length.  I expect the rational was they didn’t want too much velocity and by limiting the case volume, you can limit velocity.  The whole straight wall rifle thing was an offshoot of shotgun deer hunting.  As I understand it, hunter numbers are declining and there was a push to allow easier methods of taking deer.   Those states had a concern that high powered rifles carry too far and you might shoot someone unintentionally.  Since large pistol rounds have similar ballistics to a shotgun slug, they were ok.   Short fat bullet going somewhat slowly so they are sub 200 yard cartridges.  
Iowa is one of those shotgun states, but no minimum length so 45-70 was legal.  This year it changed to 35 cal or bigger bullet and 500 ft-lbs min energy.  No more distinction of straight wall only.   So 35 Whelen, 375 H&h, 35 rem are all legal.  

imho the only reason the 450 bm came out was someone wanted a big bullet in an AR platform.   That’s why the pressure is so low, keep the bolt thrust low for a large diameter case.  The bolt can’t handle higher pressure as it was designed for the thrust of a 223 load.    A 45-70 won’t easily fit in an AR due to the rim.   If you want a faster 450 bm, look at the 45 raptor which is the same basic cartridge, but in a ar-10 platform so it can have higher bolt thrust and pressure. 

same with the 350 legend.  It’s only taken off due to it being a legal rifle cartridge in states that previously were only shotgun.  It’s also not nearly as much recoil as the 450bm or 45-70.   It fits in a ar style platform making it an easy option for anyone who already owns a 223 ar-15.  Just buy a new upper and you can go hunt deer.   Also it had a huge marketing push.  

 

It has been interesting to watch the straight wall regulations evolve in the various Heartland states.  

 

Indiana, Iowa, and Michigan (with zones) all had minimum and maximum lengths at one time.  Iowa had two sets of case length requirements depending on if it was rimmed or rimless.  The 375, 444, and 45-70 did not fall within these parameters but were carried over from the preexisting pistol regulations.

 

The flat shooting safety concern was mostly a political argument.  The real resistance was activist groups that feared unfair advantage and groups that feared continued expansion of regulations (which happened, 50bmg is now legal method of take) leading to decimation of the mature population similar to the short lived hipower season in southern counties and Missouri.

[Chief Rick]

4 hours ago, Slapshot said:

Appropriate projectiles are available for the 223 to kill most NA game animals. But it doesn't make it a equal. Nor is the 450 BM the equal to the 458, and nor is it equal to the 45/70. the only to that are close are the 458 SOCOM and the 45/70. Personally I'd take the 45/70 preferrably a double instead of a single. But a 458 would suffice.

 

But that is just my opinion on those calibers.

 

Slapshot

CPL-USMC

Sass# 111639

Who said anything about them being equal?

 

But as I think about it - they are equal.  Dead is dead.  Unless something can be more dead...

[Pat Riot]

Pennsylvania is LOADED with Whitetail deer. You can use rifles with high powered cartridges like .300 Win Mag. I am sure 50 BMG is definitely not allowed, but with all these hunters hunting with dreaded not straight walled cases the deer flourish. So much so that deer carcasses are strewn about the highways and byways due to vehiculum versus cervi. 
 

I doubt using bottlenecked cartridges in the unenlightened states has been the reason for the diminishing deer populations. 

 

Pat Riot said with a smirk and a smile…

[Still hand Bill]

11 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Pennsylvania is LOADED with Whitetail deer. You can use rifles with high powered cartridges like .300 Win Mag. I am sure 50 BMG is definitely not allowed, but with all these hunters hunting with dreaded not straight walled cases the deer flourish. So much so that deer carcasses are strewn about the highways and byways due to vehiculum versus cervi. 
 

I doubt using bottlenecked cartridges in the unenlightened states has been the reason for the diminishing deer populations. 

 

Pat Riot said with a smirk and a smile…

As mentioned above it was a political argument and in Iowa its going away.  Some bottleneck cartridges are now legal.  The hunter numbers are declining and last year (2020) the take was short 7000 deer.   The bigger problem seems to be that there are lots of urban deer which are not able to be hunted except by bow.   They thrive with no real predator except for motor vehicles.  Also it’s the age old competition between hunter who want plentiful and easy to shoot deer vs over population damaging vehicles and over grazing.   

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 12/31/2021 at 11:28 PM, Charlie T Waite said:

This Article shows newer is not necessarily better......

The real reason behind the 450 is the straight wall cartridge .

The 45/70 is a tapered cartridge.

With all the new hunting laws allowing people to use straight wall cartridge rifles like the 450 in what used to be shotgun only hunting zones .

And the fact it can be used in the most common AR platform and have 45/70 punch.

How can you not love the 450 Cartridge.

So Saith The Rooster

[sassnetguy50]

@Pat Riot, SASS #13748 My post has been edited in bold to clarify.  The speculation was that a 130 bambi would be normal instead of a 170 deer.  The 200plus big bucks would be gone.  

 

Comparing Iowa to Missouri is more realistic since terrain and climate are more similar.  Ask a MO hunter what a big buck is, then ask an IA hunter.  The MO standard is lower because the availability of truely big bucks is lower while bambi and spikes are everywhere.  Doe weights are lower too.

 

The 450 Bushmaster is tempting for the .452 bullet options vs the .458 lead options in the 45-70.  45 Colt also uses the .452 bullets.  

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, sassnetguy50 said:

The 450 Bushmaster is tempting for the .452 bullet options vs the .458 lead options in the 45-70.  45 Colt also uses the .452 bullets.  

 

Several of these big-bore cartridges, the vast majority of available bullets are for pistols.  Driving these pistol bullets at rifle velocities doesn't usually work well in terminal performance.

 

That was (may still be) a problem with the 444 Marlin (.429" bullet) as well as the 50 Beowulf (.500" bullet) and 450 Bushmaster (.452" bullet); much less selection of bullets designed to be shot at higher velocities.

 

Bullet development for the 460 S&W Mag and 500 S&W Mag have directly affected the performance capability of the 450 Bushmaster and 50 Beowulf.

 

The 458 SOCOM does have the largest selection of bullets available, if the shooter can use/wants that cartridge.

 

[bgavin]

I'm confused.
45-70 is called a tapered cartridge, with 0.5039" base and 0.4800" neck.
450 Bushmaster is 0.5000" base and 0.4800" neck.

Both are straight wall, both appear to be tapered.
Some writers call the Bushmaster "no taper" other writers call them "tapered", but both are straight wall (non-bottleneck).

I have no dog in the fight.. just curious.

If'n I was going to pick one, it would be the 45-70, cuz I have zero interest in AR type rifles.
45-70 brass is far more available, and there is a huge number of published loads for this as well.

[Pat Riot]

8 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

The 450 Bushmaster is tempting for the .452 bullet options vs the .458 lead options in the 45-70.  45 Colt also uses the .452 bullets.  

Thinking back I do believe this is why I was interested in the 450 BM - the .452 bullet diameter. My idea was to use pistol cartridge bullets for lighter loads for plinking. Of course the gun would need an adjustable gas block for regular rifle rounds. 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Thinking back I do believe this is why I was interested in the 450 BM - the .452 bullet diameter. My idea was to use pistol cartridge bullets for lighter loads for plinking. Of course the gun would need an adjustable gas block for regular rifle rounds. 

 

The rifling rate of twist will likely affect the accuracy. What is good for big heavy bullets isn't optimal for light ones and vice versa.

[Pat Riot]

6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

The rifling rate of twist will likely affect the accuracy. What is good for big heavy bullets isn't optimal for light ones and vice versa.

True. I never bothered anyway. I went with a better option.  45-70 Henry single shot. 

[bgavin]

I looked at the 1:20 twist, appears to put lots of spin on every load from 250 to 500 grains.
The Miller Stability factor is 3.82 and higher.
The military looks for 1.5 to 2.0 as their sweet spot, but anything above this is considered fully stable.