Trail Boss and 45acp......uhgain,, NEVER MIND

[Throckmorton,23149]

 

 

 

[Chief Rick]

The Hodgdon Reloading Center website shows a max of 5.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 200 gr cast LSWC.

[Chief Rick]

Hodgdon Reloading Data Center

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

The Hodgdon Reloading Center website shows a max of 5.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 200 gr cast LSWC.

 

Exactly.  M.D. Smith pages pretty much mirror what the manufacturers data says.

["Big Boston"]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

Hodgdon Reloading Data Center

 

I've had a shortcut to the data site for years now, a very valuable source for sure.

 

Not that I'm against using TB, but when I got my first 1911 for Wild Bunch a year or 2 ago i searched out what most were using and it seems to meet or slightly exceed the power factor required most were using WST. It is pretty visible in the case and so a double charge is less likely. The big advantage for TB would be a lower power load with still enough pressure to cycle, IMO. I just loaded WST and it worked, so I'm a bit curious as to how TB works/characteristics etc. 

[Roscoe Regulator]

Lyman Cast book goes higher than Hodgdon. I use 5.5 TB in my rifle, but that load is too heavy for me to hold a 5.5" Vaquero on target between quick-fire shots. I went to Cowboy special 160 gr in the pistols, not actually a particularly light load either with different powder, but see I could just load 4.5 gr TB in 45 Colt across the set of guns. Think I will test that. That said, I did just receive 250 more 45CS cases from Starline.

[Sedalia Dave]

This paper from Hodgdon explains how to determine the minimum and maximum charge of TrailBoss for ANY caliber and bullet combination. TB loads are easy to calculate, find the maximum charge, and then do the math. 
 

 Most important is that TB behaves unpredictably if compressed. Same is true if you are below the minimum charge. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 minute ago, Sedalia Dave said:

This paper from Hodgdon explains how to determine the minimum and maximum charge for TrailBoss for ANY caliber and bullet combination. TB loads are easy to calculate, find the maximum charge, and then do the math. 
 

 Most important is that TB behaves unpredictably if compressed. Same is true if you are below the minimum charge. 

 

Strange though that Hodgdon's description of determining a TB load for any round doesn't necessarily match up with their published data.  I don't recall what cartridge now, maybe 44-40, but a few years ago I did the measuring thing and the min/max were higher than their published load for that round.  I asked them why via the "contact us" on their website but they never replied.  

[Sedalia Dave]

Just now, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Strange though that Hodgdon's description of determining a TB load for any round doesn't necessarily match up with their published data.  I don't recall what cartridge now, maybe 44-40, but a few years ago I did the measuring thing and the min/max were higher than their published load for that round.  I asked them why via the "contact us" on their website but they never replied.  

 I suspect that Hodgdon errors on the side of caution.

Even if they are the same weight, Different bullet profiles will result in varying case volume after the bullet is seated. Depending on the manufacturer case volume also varies. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

30 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 I suspect that Hodgdon errors on the side of caution.

Even if they are the same weight, Different bullet profiles will result in varying case volume after the bullet is seated. Depending on the manufacturer case volume also varies. 

But if the data that comes from measuring case volume is hotter than their published data, that doesn't sound like caution.  

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

I've had a shortcut to the data site for years now, a very valuable source for sure.

 

Not that I'm against using TB, but when I got my first 1911 for Wild Bunch a year or 2 ago i searched out what most were using and it seems to meet or slightly exceed the power factor required most were using WST. It is pretty visible in the case and so a double charge is less likely. The big advantage for TB would be a lower power load with still enough pressure to cycle, IMO. I just loaded WST and it worked, so I'm a bit curious as to how TB works/characteristics etc. 

When I shot Bullseye Pistol 4.1 gr. WST behind a 200 gr. Lead bullet was the load I used in my Wad gun.

 

 Randy 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

5 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Strange though that Hodgdon's description of determining a TB load for any round doesn't necessarily match up with their published data. 

 

If the powder manufacturer has tested and published specific data, I would use that before even thinking of using the
"general formula", which is primarily intended for calculating RIFLE cartridge light loads.

 

Be aware that there is expected to be NO TRAIL BOSS production in 2022.  There have been several manufacturing glitches (like fires in powder drying facilities) and ADI, the Australian maker, is revamping the production process/equipment.   This would be a great time to find a different powder instead of getting to an "emergency situation" later this year when you do run out and have no way to get more TB.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

With a 200 grain bullet, I use 3.5 grains of Trail Boss.  This will not cycle a 1911, but works great in shaved Webleys and other revolvers.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

There are so many powders that are suitable for out game that I'd not fret a bit if favorite disappears.  I have several favorites!  Primers, now, there is the bigger problem.

[Constable Nelson #11784]

Like GJ my impression was that the "case capacity" formula for TB was for RIFLE cartridges.  It certainly worked for me with my weird WB BAMM piece.. an 8 x 56R which is not exactly the most written of cartridge out there...lol  (Even a 90% TB load in those big old military cartidges is very mild....)

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I went back to review once more the technical tip and trick note from Hodgdon about this.  Two points stand out.

 

1) the formula can be used for pistol cartridge loading, but the instructions for using the formula EXPLICITLY say that using just the formula especially for Black Powder era pistol cartridges can exceed SAAMI maximum pressures!

 

Which gets to the second point they make quite clearly:

 

2) "Where (loading) data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximum loads."

 

Find the tip article at:

https://shop.hodgdon.com/sites/www/files/2020-08/trail-boss-reduced-loads-2018.pdf

 

good luck, GJ

["Big Boston"]

What GJ posted deserves to be repeated, so I'll quote from the Hodgdon pdf: "Where data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximums. Many original black powder pistol cartridges have capacities where a full case to the base of the intended bullet, creates charges that exceed maximum pressures allowed by SAAMI. In all these cartridges, we show data that stays within the SAAMI maximum pressure guidelines."

 

IMHO, if I were marketing Trail Boss, I would not have printed that 70% rule. In far too many places I've seen that rule posted without the large capacity cases exception. 

 

I've used enough TB that the only rule I can think of that involves 70%; Is that if the load density is below 70% Trail Boss starts to become position sensitive, and primer selection needs to be considered. 

 

It is also a good idea to look at the data, all parts of the data. For some cartridges, like the 44 Mag, the starting load pressure may exceed what your cast bullet can tolerate. My mold casts a bit smaller than the throats and grooves of my handgun.

 

The Hodgdon starting load for a 200 gr LRNFP is:

6.1

890

17,900 PSI

 

That load will lead my revolver, and in reality, 890 fps is more velocity than I want. With my 200 gr bullet seated in a resized case, the powder chamber volume is 1.6cc. That is app 7.4 gr of TB. 70% is 5.2 gr. The load worked well, velocity in the 750 fps range and the numbers were decent. 

 

Calibre	44 Remington Magnum			Date Loaded		2021-11-25
Powder	Trail Boss			Weight in Grains		5.2
Bullet	LEE 429-200 RF			Weight in Grains		206.5
Primer	CCI 300 LP			Loaded OAL		1.53
Case	W-W SUPER 44 MAGNUM			Weight in Grains		110
Times Loaded				Number loaded
Firearm	Little Tony			Barrel clean/fouled
Velocity Av	755.6/751.5	Es	20.5/25.36	Sd	8.24/11.13	Shots	5>/5<

 

In addition their posted max load of 7.7 grains would be somewhat compressed. The Hodgdon data is for a specific undisclosed cast bullet, not the same as the bullet I was using. My OAL is 1.53, their data lists 1.57. 

 

Probably a moot point as Trail Boss as we know it, will probably never be made again. One of the compounds in the powder, Dibutyl phthalate, is one of the chemicals on David Suzuki's Dirty Dozen list. Chemical Engineering is well beyond my pay grade, but IMHO if it's on the environmentalist list, it will probably be banned. 

 

BB