Safety Concern about holstering a pistol with unfired round

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

This is not a WTC, the call is no call.  This past weekend a shooter has a failure to Fire on a pistol, goes around at least once, opens the loading gate, loads a 6th round, indexes, fires.  Hits the target, hammer is down on the expended cartridge, so no call so far.  Safe to leave their hands etc.  

Shooter holsters the pistol, again, safe to leave the shooters hand, back to leather and continues the stage. 

 

The concern that was brought up was the possibility of a hang fire, (cartridge gun not cap and ball) and instead of holstering the gun should have been made safe on the prop.  

 

What are the chances of a hang fire igniting a round after at least one go round, a load, index and fire?  We are talking this particular shooter took probably 20 seconds from "click" to re holstering.  

 

Obviously the shooter had other choices, they cold have declared a broke gun after go round, taken a miss, or loaded a 6th round into the other pistol to complete the string.  And it was a very small monthly match in nice cool brisk temps, so practice not for speed... 

 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

As you stated, it's a "No Call". In 22 years of CAS the only "hang fire" I've seen is with a cap and ball revolver and involved a dirty nipple.

No cartridge guns, I've seen, have had a "hang fire".

[Badlands Bob #61228]

In 50 years of shooting, I've never experienced a hang fire with a cartridge gun.   I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's very improbable.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Depending on where you look, you can find anywhere from 15 to 60 seconds to wait for ignition after a hang fire.

 

But as with previous comments -- not saying it CAN'T happen (there's a reason it's got a name, I guess), but I've been shooting since late 60s, and reloading since late 70s, and have yet to even hear of someone claim first-hand experience with a hang fire. (ETA: In a cartridge gun)

[Singin' Sue 71615]

When a prop is there, yes I lay on table or shelf and have it brought to the unloading table. Once or twice there was no safe prop, so TO had me reholster.

My question is...is it safer in the holster to the unloading table, or in someones hands???

[Woody Shootem, SASS # 24816]

Don't want to hijack this thread, and I agree it's a no call and no rule changes are needed.  But I have experienced a couple of hangfires with cartridge guns.  One was with a factory .45-70 smokeless round that I had purchased shortly before.  Pulled the trigger and click.  Took the gun off my shoulder to see what what going on -- heard a PPffffffft then boom.  The round went off.  The rifle was pointed safely downrange at the backstop at the time, but surprised the heck out of me.  Total time between pulling the trigger and the round going off was probably 2 seconds.  This was close to 20 years ago and I no longer remember the brand of factory ammo.  Shortly thereafter I started loading my own blackpowder rounds and haven't shot smokeless since, but not because I'm scared of hangfires -- it's just because I love blackpowder.

 

The second time was with some 75 year old surplus ammo for my Argentine Mauser.  I had some failures to fire, then a hangfire of maybe half a second.  I disassembled the rest of that surplus ammo and saved the bullets.  I've heard this is not an uncommon thing with old surplus ammo; it depends how it was stored during it's lifetime. 

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

Me too, Woody.  I bought some surplus 303 british ammo (cheap at a gunshow, I should've known better).  Was at the range and loaded 5 in the mag.  First round was a hangfire, maybe 4 or five seconds.  Tried the second and another hangfire, this time a bit longer.  I unloaded the remaining rounds and still have that pile of ammo stashed somewhere in the bottom of the ammo closet in a box marked "do not use".

 

 

[DeaconKC]

2 hours ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

Me too, Woody.  I bought some surplus 303 british ammo (cheap at a gunshow, I should've known better).  Was at the range and loaded 5 in the mag.  First round was a hangfire, maybe 4 or five seconds.  Tried the second and another hangfire, this time a bit longer.  I unloaded the remaining rounds and still have that pile of ammo stashed somewhere in the bottom of the ammo closet in a box marked "do not use".

 

 

Was that the Pakistani stuff? I had the same thing happen to me with some Pakistani .303. Turns out had been stored improperly for 30-40+ years.

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

I believe that there was a hang fire at Guns of August one year.

 

Shotgun round that didn’t go off, was shucked out, the shooter finished the stage.

 

The loaded shell was retrieved by another shooter and taken to the unloading table and given to the owner.

 

It then went off.

 

No one seriously hurt.

 

Took quite a while to go off!

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

51 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

Was that the Pakistani stuff?

I dont recall, this was many years ago.  Next time I go digging in the deep dark recesses of the ammo closet, I'll check! Not sure why I kept them, they are berdan primed so I cant pull them, pop the primers and reload them.

[Trailrider #896]

Many years ago, I was developing loads for a .45-90 using IMR4198, a light load. I was using a 385 gr. gascheck bullet.  As I recall, I did not crimp the case mouth, but had a fairly tight bullet "pull".  There was a noticeable click-BANG.  The bullet did clear the barrel.  I discontinued shooting with that batch of cartridges, pulled the bullets and added a 2-inch square of single-ply toilet tissue, poked lightly into the case, to hold the powder back against the primer.  NO problems after that!  In fairly large-capacity BP cases (.40-65 WCF,.45-70, .45-90, .50-70) I have continued that practice when using light loads of IMR4198, with no problem.   Now, in pistol/rifle cartridges (.44-40 & .45LC), hangfires (ignition delay) can be more serious!  It takes at least 5,000 psi to ignite smokeless powders and get them burning stably.  If too light a charge, too light a bullet and insufficient bullet "pull" due to too large an expander plug in relation to the bullet diameter (,003" interference fit between the bullet and the case), and no roll crimp, CAN cause the bullet to be pushed out of the case by the primer.  If this happens, the bullet can lodge in the barrel forcing cone, stopping.  The pressure can then build up until the powder charge "takes off".  The force (pressure) needed to start the bullet engraving on the rifling and moving again exceeds the force when the bullet gets a head start in a properly burning charge.  The pressures can go high enough to rupture the cartridge case (especially in oversized chambers common in .45 LC cylinders), the resulting jet of flame can burn through the sides of the chamber, and...kaBOOM! the top of the gun comes off!  Seen guns in several instances where this was the probably cause.  And, no, it wasn't due to double-charging.  Pressure tests run on .38 Specials with intentional double charges of Bullseye (in test barrels) resulted in pressures LESS than +P loads in .357 Magnums.  Yet, I've seen Pythons with the cylinders blown, and the remaining .38 Spl rounds were loaded with full wadcutters and NO crimp!

 

Would I immediately reholster a gun that had a Failure To Fire?  NO!  I would lay the gun down for at least 30 seconds, and then clear the dud, and check for a bullet lodged in the barrel!  

[Jasper Agate]

5 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

As you stated, it's a "No Call". In 22 years of CAS the only "hang fire" I've seen is with a cap and ball revolver and involved a dirty nipple.

No cartridge guns, I've seen, have had a "hang fire".

Hello my friend,

  Saw it happen once. It was a '73 in 32/20 and ended up being an out of battery discharge. Our very own Irish Ike was shooting and as near as we could tell a piece of polishing media( crushed walnut hulls) got stuck in the flash hole and smoldered just long enough to set off the cartridge after he pulled the trigger then cocked it and dropped the hammer then opened  the action and BOOM. Quite an interesting day!!

                                                    Jasper

P.S. The first res-ponder was a deputy sheriff. I took one look at Ike and asked if the rifle was OK!?!?!?

[Indy Kid, SASS #4638]

I can add to the incident Catuse Jack is referring to as the shooter was my wife Calamity Kelly. The round was a factory AA shell she ejected after a makeup. It was returned to her at the end of the stage and she put it back in her belt. We moved on to the next stage and were read the instructions. As we moved to our gun cart the shell went off. Because of the quirks of smokeless powder almost no damage was done. There was a lot of shot in her shotgun belt, the hull was not split but looked like a pregnant guppy and there was a necessary trip to the port-a-john. The time between the round hitting the ground and it going off was between 5 and 10 minutes.

[Rancho Roy]

Quote

piece of polishing media( crushed walnut hulls) got stuck in the flash hole and smoldered just long enough to set off the cartridge 

I've heard about this a time or two......Hang fires do indeed happen....No sure I'd want one going off in a holster strapped to my leg!

Trigger was pulled...Cylinder  went around a couple times....Gun  didn't go bang....Put it down.....Even if current rules say it is OK to holster....

[Kid Rich]

Happened to me in cold weather at WR 3 or 4 years ago. 44-40 loaded with Clays just went pop. TO said ground it and I started to when it went off, probably 5 seconds. At least it was pointed down range.

kR

[Three Foot Johnson]

Hangfires of more than a few tenths of a second are rare, very rare. The really scary ones are the new Baldwin rounds that randomly go off without ever touching the trigger.

[Patagonia Pete]

Even if it goes off .. it isn't going to go anywhere unless it is the round you can see when you look down the barrel w/ the flashlight!! 

[Buck Mehoff]

Good safety practice for suspected hangfire is to keep the gun pointed downrange and count to 60 before moving the gun. As a new shooter I am not sure what this would do from a competition standpoint. This is a policy I learned as an NRA RSO and used when running ranges at scouting events.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

With very old milsurp ammo it is not as rare as many here are saying.  But we don't shoot very old milsurp ammo in CAS.

[Rancho Roy]

On 12/16/2021 at 1:43 PM, Patagonia Pete said:

Even if it goes off .. it isn't going to go anywhere unless it is the round you can see when you look down the barrel w/ the flashlight!! 

Not so. I know a hunting guide that was shot in the leg by a revolver with hammer down on an empty chamber. Gun was hung to close to stove pipe and a cartridge next to the empty chamber cooked off and hit his leg. Never went through the barrel. Just fired out of the cylinder.

[Three Foot Johnson]

26 minutes ago, Rancho Roy said:

Not so. I know a hunting guide that was shot in the leg by a revolver with hammer down on an empty chamber. Gun was hung to close to stove pipe and a cartridge next to the empty chamber cooked off and hit his leg. Never went through the barrel. Just fired out of the cylinder.

That gun must have been unholstered and literally in contact with the stove pipe. The temperature would drop exponentially as the distance up the stove pipe and/or away from the stovepipe increased, so 2' up from the stove and 4" or so away from the stove pipe, it simply couldn't happen unless the stove pipe was kept glowing red, and the gun was unholstered. In a holster, I doubt it could happen at all, unless the leather caught fire.

Mythbusters did an episode on this and came up with 450º in order for a round to "cook off". A quick Web search shows other estimates as low as 330º, so who really knows.

My infrared thermometer says the top of my woodstove is 322º right now, and I sure wouldn't feel comfortable laying a loaded round on top!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Shouldn’t the shooter have set down the pistol in question? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone load a 6th round fire and then holster. 
Is a clean shoot all that important? I assume that’s why he did what he did?

[Null N. Void]

5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Shouldn’t the shooter have set down the pistol in question? I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone load a 6th round fire and then holster. 
Is a clean shoot all that important? I assume that’s why he did what he did?

I did load one at a State match.  One round did not fire.   I loaded another round into the empty chamber, indexed and shot it.   I did not declare a broke gun, so I holstered it.  Hammer was down on a spent cartridge, so all was good.  It saved me a clean match.

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

I have had several hang fires in my life, but all were with old military ammo, and the delay was only a second or two.

[MBFields]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:08 AM, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

When a prop is there, yes I lay on table or shelf and have it brought to the unloading table. Once or twice there was no safe prop, so TO had me reholster.

My question is...is it safer in the holster to the unloading table, or in someones hands???

Put it on the ground.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

4 hours ago, MBFields said:

Put it on the ground.

I suppose...if I could bend that far!

(Fat belly+ corset= no bendy so good)

[DeaconKC]

2 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

I suppose...if I could bend that far!

(Fat belly+ corset= no bendy so good)

Ladies are never fat, just "Shapely".

[Singin' Sue 71615]

Just now, DeaconKC said:

Ladies are never fat, just "Shapely".

Awwwww...your daddy raised you right!!

[Too Tall Bob]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:37 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

Hangfires of more than a few tenths of a second are rare, very rare. The really scary ones are the new Baldwin rounds that randomly go off without ever touching the trigger.

I still wonder what triggered that shot……..