44-40 black powder

[Cockney Rebel]

I am looking at BP loads for 44-40.  Do any of you use grease cookies and wads? I was planning on using greased bullets straight onto BP or maybe BP with some cream o’ wheat?

[El diablo gringo]

Howdy 

i don’t recommend grease cookies or wads due to powder contamination.  If you use a sub like APP you don’t need any lube at all. If using real BP you should lube your bullets with a BP compatible lube.  As for a filler I prefer caulk backer rod. 
 

Gringo

[Tequila Shooter]

40gr of BP with big lube bullet. 

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

When loading bp cartridges, I would punch a bunch of card disks to put on top of the power.

I would use bp lube on the bullets.

This would do a good job but I learned of a much better process from a fellow shooter who I believed built bp revolvers coming across the prairie in the back of a wagon in 1800s. <g> sort of!

 

I shot with guy (Old Scout) for many years and I watched him shoot many matches and never cleaned his rifle.

Revolvers where always Rogers & Spencers.

Any way, I would ask how he loaded his cartridges that kept his rifle bore clean.

He would give me some information and I would load a few rounds and try them.

There was always something missing causing a mess when shooting.

 

Then he handed me a round after a match in Nevada and said I should break it down.

What I found surprised me.

Over the years of shooting together, he in fact had given me all the info needed.

Just didn't didn't give me the assembly order.

 

I am going to tell everyone his secrete Load in bp cartridge that will clean the bore with every shot.

No bush or swab down the barrel between stages of even a 3 day match.

 

1. BP powder.

2. A card wad. (used primer boxes punched to size for the caliber loaded)

3. The big secret.... after making up 50 cases with powder and card wad, set 1/8" red dental impression wax over the 50 rounds and press down with a wood block then peel the excess was off leaving wax wad in each case.

4. Second card wad. (another primer box card wad)

5. seat the lube bullet on top. (the lubed bullet seat much better than unlubed bullets)

 

This is it.

What happens during the shot is the bp powder will push the first wad in to the wax and cause it to spread out scraping the barrel as it is push against the second wad and bullet base.

======================

In revolvers you can skip all of this.

Load all 5 cartridges in the cylinder then apply your favorite grease on the front of the bullet as you would a cap & ball revolver.

 

I prefer the cards and wax method, it is so much cleaner and there is no cleanup between stages like with the grease.

======================

This card and wax wad method work extremely well in single shot big bore.

No blowing in the barrel between shots.

No swabbing between stages.

I did not shoot long range very often.

I shot Plainsman and needed rounds that would keep the rifle working with out cleaning for the whole day. (or a least a whole stage)

 

Old Scout lived and breathed BP competition.

He was a gunsmith and he tested various powders and cartridges once a week at the range.

He wrote everything down in a book.

He would share if you asked.

He would go get his book out of his truck and look up the cartridge you where asking about.

He would have the info for the cartridge and even ore than that.

He would have info for revolvers, lever rifles and single shot rifles.

He would record every shot over a chronograph and know what the accuracy was for different velocities.

 

When Old Scout die, we lost a man full of knowledge.

He book was lost as well.

 

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

What tequila Shooter said has worked for me for 25+ years.

Get the big lube bullets from Springfield Slim, or cast your own.

You can drop the loads to 20 or 25 grains if you wish, and make up for it with ground corn cob or charcoal granules.

--Dawg

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

6 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

In revolvers you can skip all of this.

Load all 5 cartridges in the cylinder then apply your favorite grease on the front of the bullet as you would a cap & ball revolver.

 

This method works.  I shot a match Wednesday this way with good results.  Being winter, my grease was ordinary vegetable shortening applied with a popsicle stick.

 

My rifle bullets were Snakebite greasewagon bullets (a Big Lube design) I cast and lubed with SPG Tropic.  

 

If you just want to try the Darkside without all this extra work, load with APP and don't worry about lubes.  I shoot many major matches and see more "BP" shooters using APP than any other propellant.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

Are you looking for a reduced load ? Or planing on full blown loads ?

If you are looking for reduced loads , 15 grs. of 3 f . Then i use Corn Meal as a filler, then a wad made out of cereal boxes

or primer boxes . Then seat the Bullet . 

For a full blown load , 33 grs of 3f then a wad then seat bullet.

Lead it 200 grs RCBS Bullet. SPG Bullet lube.

I have used this formula and shot 10 stages in a day. No cleaning Pistols or Rifle.

 

[Cockney Rebel]

To clarify, I am looking to find a workable load for a, new to me, 1873.  I want BP because of tradition.  I have heard that the slight bottleneck of the cartridge helps keep most fouling to just the barrel?

I am not familiar with APP?

i am not fussed about a light load per se but would like to keep the smoke down a little bit to help me see the targets :-)

[Cockney Rebel]

I currently have Buffalo arms SOG lubed bullets but they have no crimp groove.  May not be such an issue with a full load of powder (and filler) behind it?

I was also looking at Desperado bullets.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

APP is not traditional and is quite smokey.  To keep the smoke down, load 1 cc of black powder and a filler of your choice.  I like foam backer rod since it cannot mix with the black powder under recoil.  You will need to learn how to shoot at obscured targets.  When offered a choice of direction to shoot a sweep, shoot from the downwind side to the upwind side.  To get decent stage times you often need to shoot at targets you can barely see.  Mornings usually have the worst conditions - especially with backlit targets.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

If you are going to shoot black embrace the smoke!  Heck, I shot a clean state shoot mostly because no one could see the targets after the first round went down range, not even the spotters.  A 45 Colt with a full charge makes a LOT of smoke.

[Cockney Rebel]

27 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

APP is not traditional and is quite smokey.  To keep the smoke down, load 1 cc of black powder and a filler of your choice.  I like foam backer rod since it cannot mix with the black powder under recoil.  You will need to learn how to shoot at obscured targets.  When offered a choice of direction to shoot a sweep, shoot from the downwind side to the upwind side.  To get decent stage times you often need to shoot at targets you can barely see.  Mornings usually have the worst conditions - especially with backlit targets.

So what is APP?  Are you talking about Pyrodex or something like that?

[Bailey Creek,5759]

It"s a imitation Black Powder. Its self lubing , so they say.

I know people who shoot it. They seem to like it. Not as corrosive as Black.

It seems to smoke more than Black. 

You can shoot regular Bullets . You don't need a special lube.

With Goex shutting down , more will probably use it .

[Silver Creek Jack]

Try APP, it’s an accurate powder, smokes like black,( some say more) and cleans up really easy. I load both my Ruger stainless .357 vaqueros and Uberti 73 .357 with it and have no problem shooting 6 or 7 stages with no swabbing or fowling problems.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

APP stands for American Pioneer Powder.  It is a sulfur-free black powder substitute that lacks the flame, boom and smell of real black powder.  APP smoke does not smell like rotten eggs.  APP residue is not rust-inducing (though it will tarnish brass in time).  Pyrodex is another black powder substitute.  It is more like real black powder.  Its smoke stinks and its residue can induce rust.  Sporting goods stores often stock Pyrodex and APP because they are propellants, not explosives.

 

You will probably find it easier to purchase APP, Pyrodex or Triple Seven (like APP but more energetic) than real black powder right now because 1) the sole US manufacturer of real black powder (Goex) just closed, and 2) more vendors sell black powder substitutes than real black powder.   Shooters Choice black powder substitute is also available and is similar to APP.

 

I refer you to Captain Baylor's Black Powder for Dummies for more information.  BTW, welcome to the Darkside!  Talk to Dogmeat Dad.  He's local to you and is an established Soot Lord.

[Pee Wee #15785]

If you are shooting .44-40 in the rifle only load full case of black .  If loading for pistols you may want to use 18-20 gr of black and filler.  I load Swiss or Goex black powder compressed 1/8" card wad, felt lubed wad, card wad, and bullet.  Rifle I load OAL the longest that will cycle through the rifle.  Pistol gets the longest OAL that allows the cylinder to rotate if only black is being used.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

2 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

To clarify, I am looking to find a workable load for a, new to me, 1873.  I want BP because of tradition.  I have heard that the slight bottleneck of the cartridge helps keep most fouling to just the barrel?

I am not familiar with APP?

i am not fussed about a light load per se but would like to keep the smoke down a little bit to help me see the targets :-)

Smoke obscured targets is the reason for the 1 cc of BP as a smoke standard.  Check the rule book for the exact wording. 

Sealing the barrel/breach is obtainable with straight walled cases.  Full loads and tight crimp help get you there.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

10 hours ago, El diablo gringo said:

 

As for a filler I prefer caulk backer rod. 

I started using backer rod on Captain George Baylor’s recommendation.  It works well for me.  I started with a package I bought at Home Depot and later ordered a larger quantity from Amazon.  I use less powder with a surprising small loss of velocity compared to a full case charge, so the backer rod is free.  Sort of.

[Tequila Shooter]

13 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

So what is APP?  Are you talking about Pyrodex or something like that?

 

If you want APP contact @Scarlett she sells APP, and coated bullets plus she gives hugs with every purchase. 

Also, if you’re going to come to the Darkside embrace smoke and obscured targets, it’s part of the experience.  Shooting black is something that gets in your blood, but you’ve got to have the right attitude.  Yesterday on the first stage it was hot, humid and still, after my first shot no one could see the targets, when I got to the SG the only thing you could see was the fire coming out of the barrel.  I finished I had a big smile, people were coughing and laughing at the same time and I was happy. 

[La Sombra]

33 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

If you want APP contact @Scarlett she sells APP, and coated bullets plus she gives hugs with every purchase. 

Also, if you’re going to come to the Darkside embrace smoke and obscured targets, it’s part of the experience.  Shooting black is something that gets in your blood, but you’ve got to have the right attitude.  Yesterday on the first stage it was hot, humid and still, after my first shot no one could see the targets, when I got to the SG the only thing you could see was the fire coming out of the barrel.  I finished I had a big smile, people were coughing and laughing at the same time and I was happy. 

 

I can second what @Tequila Shootersays about @Scarlett. The hugs are worth it.

 

Since you live in the PDRM (People's Democratic Republic of Maryland), the smoke should keep the mosquitos away also. An added benefit!

 

La Sombra

[Bailey Creek,5759]

1 cc equals 15 grains of 2 f Black Powder . In a 38 Case.

I am not sure about APP. I know some are using 9 Grains in a 38 Case . 

[Eyesa Horg]

7 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

I started using backer rod on Captain George Baylor’s recommendation.  It works well for me.  I started with a package I bought at Home Depot and later ordered a larger quantity from Amazon.  I use less powder with a surprising small loss of velocity compared to a full case charge, so the backer rod is free.  Sort of.

How long do you cut the backer rod compared to the space being filled?

 

Thanks,

EH

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I used the backer rod once to lower the recoil on my daughter's guns. Just cut it so it almost reaches the end of the BP filled case, as it squishes pretty well. You can decide how much BP you want. I only did it once as my daughter complained it wasn't as loud and smokey!

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

As for wads and filler, sounds like a good way to waste an afternoon. I load for 4 shooters and don't have that much spare time so I just use a BP designed bullet and a case of powder.

     If you want less recoil use a lighter bullet and it will give you better results than less powder, in my experience. I also switched to fg powder. Fills the space with a lighter charge due to the coarser grains, and gives you more sparks and flame due to the less efficient burning. KISS, I always say.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Oh bother.  "I Hear,"  "I think," "so they say," etc. etc. etc.  If you really don't have a clue, why respond with suggestions about which you know absolutely NADA.

 

PLUS ONE for Springfield Slim.  Backer Rod??  Grits??  Cornmeal??  Lube Cookies??  Wads ??  Far far simpler to just follow Springfields suggestions.  Really simple.

 

If you wish information about Subs, ask someone who knows what they are talking about.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Boy I would go nuts trying some of the methods suggested.  Wad, lube, dental floss, more wads, etc.  Wow.  I don't have the patience for all that.  My setup for .44-40 is shown below.  Powder in clear hopper grits in the red one.  Load several hundred rounds per hour.

 

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Larsen, that is the same setup I used commercially.

Except I had two Dillon hoppers.

-------------------------

Experimenting with fillers, cream of wheat and instant grits, I found Cream of wheat would suck the moisture out of the bp powder if the rounds set for a while on the shelf.

Made for erratic ignition.

 

Instant grits did not suck moisture from the powder.

After a year on the shelf, the ignition and velocity was the same as day 1.

 

Another thing is cream of wheat compresses in to a solid disk.

If you stand directly behind the shooter you can see the disk going down range and impact behind the bullet.

Instant grits does not compress in to a disk and scatters as it leaves the barrel.

 

I always wondered if the cream of wheat disk added to the bullet weight with regards to felt recoil.

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

4 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Another thing is cream of wheat compresses in to a solid disk.

If you stand directly behind the shooter you can see the disk going down range and impact behind the bullet.

 

And I thought multiple projectiles in one shell violated the rules.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

As for wads and filler, sounds like a good way to waste an afternoon. I load for 4 shooters and don't have that much spare time so I just use a BP designed bullet and a case of powder.

     If you want less recoil use a lighter bullet and it will give you better results than less powder, in my experience. I also switched to fg powder. Fills the space with a lighter charge due to the coarser grains, and gives you more sparks and flame due to the less efficient burning. KISS, I always say.

 

THIS ^^^^

 

I learned this long ago from a Soot Lord. If you want hot loads use FFFg. For mild loads Fg.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

4 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

If you want APP contact @Scarlett she sells APP, and coated bullets plus she gives hugs with every purchase. 

Also, if you’re going to come to the Darkside embrace smoke and obscured targets, it’s part of the experience.  Shooting black is something that gets in your blood, but you’ve got to have the right attitude.  Yesterday on the first stage it was hot, humid and still, after my first shot no one could see the targets, when I got to the SG the only thing you could see was the fire coming out of the barrel.  I finished I had a big smile, people were coughing and laughing at the same time and I was happy. 

When the RO starts to complain before you shoot, you know you have seen the light.

 

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I may change over to Grits, since i can't eat them anymore.

They contribute to Kidney Stones .

I liked mixing Apple Butter in them .

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You can eat grits?  I thought it was just a BP filler.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

10 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

You can eat grits?  I thought it was just a BP filler.

What a waste.  All should be headed to the making of sour mash.

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

4 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

How long do you cut the backer rod compared to the space being filled?

 

Thanks,

EH

As stated above, I put the backer rod into the charged case, then cut it flush with the case mouth.  I measured the length of the trimmed rod and cut a batch of them with a one sided razor blade.  I keep a container of rod pieces next to my bullet tray.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

CR can use any of the pictured powders in his quest.  One can assemble satisfactory ammo from any of them.   I prefer some over the others.