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WTC: False Start


wyliefoxEsquire

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A question was asked at a RO1 class.

This WTC is written to address that specific question.

If this has been discussed before, then, please reference the post.

 

The bay has one LARGE pistol target, one LARGE rifle target & two shotgun knockdowns.

10  10  2+

Firearm order is rifle pistol shotgun.

Starting position: Rifle in hands, ready to fire.

Start: Tell the posse how well you are going to shoot.

At the beep:

Rifle: Missouri Sweep on rifle target (ten on one target)

Pistol: Same as rifle using pistol target.

Shotgun: Knockdown all shotgun targets.

 

The shooter's starting line is: "Don't blink, this will be the fastest time ever."

At the end of the stage the TO announced the time of 12.34 seconds.

Shooter says "YES!!!! I did it".

 

The TO polls the spotters;

Spotter 1: "P" the shooter shot the first round before the timer went "beep",   [Page 21 Shooters Handbook}

Spotter 2: "SOG" [Page 11 Shooters Handbook] shooter announced intention to fastest time ever, and intended to shoot before the "beep".

Spotter 3: Miss, Shooter only fired 23 shots after the "beep" [misses flow chart] only 9 rifle targets were hit after the "beep".
TO:  Shooter fired a round before the timer started, the shooter was too fast to stop.  Demand a reshoot.

 

Note, everyone agrees all shots hit correct targets.  Shooter agrees first shot was before the "beep".

 

WTC??

 

Please reference the handbook in your replies.

(my thought is none of the above, will share later)

thanks

 

 

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Page 20

SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes 
down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of 
his or her ability. 

 

Absolutely NOT a canidate for a reshoot.

Find it difficult to say SOG...

The miss call is really stretching the 'interpitation' of plausibility...

 

I  would have to call a P, if I were the spotter and IF things did in fact happen in the way stated.

Starting before the "beep" is against procedure of " wait for the beep"

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41 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

A question was asked at a RO1 class.

This WTC is written to address that specific question.

If this has been discussed before, then, please reference the post.

 

The bay has one LARGE pistol target, one LARGE rifle target & two shotgun knockdowns.

10  10  2+

Firearm order is rifle pistol shotgun.

Starting position: Rifle in hands, ready to fire.

Start: Tell the posse how well you are going to shoot.

At the beep:

Rifle: Missouri Sweep on rifle target (ten on one target)

Pistol: Same as rifle using pistol target.

Shotgun: Knockdown all shotgun targets.

 

The shooter's starting line is: "Don't blink, this will be the fastest time ever."

At the end of the stage the TO announced the time of 12.34 seconds.

Shooter says "YES!!!! I did it".

 

The TO polls the spotters;

Spotter 1: "P" the shooter shot the first round before the timer went "beep",   [Page 21 Shooters Handbook}

Spotter 2: "SOG" [Page 11 Shooters Handbook] shooter announced intention to fastest time ever, and intended to shoot before the "beep".

Spotter 3: Miss, Shooter only fired 23 shots after the "beep" [misses flow chart] only 9 rifle targets were hit after the "beep".
TO:  Shooter fired a round before the timer started, the shooter was too fast to stop.  Demand a reshoot.

 

Note, everyone agrees all shots hit correct targets.  Shooter agrees first shot was before the "beep".

 

WTC??

 

Please reference the handbook in your replies.

(my thought is none of the above, will share later)

thanks

 

 

MDQ.  Shooter fired a round off-stage.  Stage begins at the beep.  It's the same as firing a round at the loading table.  He was on the "firing line", but not on the stage until after the beep.   SHB Glossary.  SHB p23, MDQ penalties, "Any discharge at the loading or unloading areas". 

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1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

MDQ.  Shooter fired a round off-stage.  Stage begins at the beep.  It's the same as firing a round at the loading table.  He was on the "firing line", but not on the stage until after the beep.   SHB Glossary.

????

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43 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

A question was asked at a RO1 class.

This WTC is written to address that specific question.

If this has been discussed before, then, please reference the post.

 

The bay has one LARGE pistol target, one LARGE rifle target & two shotgun knockdowns.

10  10  2+

Firearm order is rifle pistol shotgun.

Starting position: Rifle in hands, ready to fire.

Start: Tell the posse how well you are going to shoot.

At the beep:

Rifle: Missouri Sweep on rifle target (ten on one target)

Pistol: Same as rifle using pistol target.

Shotgun: Knockdown all shotgun targets.

 

The shooter's starting line is: "Don't blink, this will be the fastest time ever."

At the end of the stage the TO announced the time of 12.34 seconds.

Shooter says "YES!!!! I did it".

 

The TO polls the spotters;

Spotter 1: "P" the shooter shot the first round before the timer went "beep",   [Page 21 Shooters Handbook}

Spotter 2: "SOG" [Page 11 Shooters Handbook] shooter announced intention to fastest time ever, and intended to shoot before the "beep".

Spotter 3: Miss, Shooter only fired 23 shots after the "beep" [misses flow chart] only 9 rifle targets were hit after the "beep".
TO:  Shooter fired a round before the timer started, the shooter was too fast to stop.  Demand a reshoot.

 

Note, everyone agrees all shots hit correct targets.  Shooter agrees first shot was before the "beep".

 

WTC??

 

Please reference the handbook in your replies.

(my thought is none of the above, will share later)

Duplicate

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12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

MDQ.  Shooter fired a round off-stage.  Stage begins at the beep.  It's the same as firing a round at the loading table.  He was on the "firing line", but not on the stage until after the beep.   SHB Glossary.  SHB p23, MDQ penalties, "Any discharge at the loading or unloading areas". 

Nope. He was on the fireing line.

Regardless.

He jumped the gun...

Mistake (because I am not going to presume to know his intent)

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where 
the competitor engages the stage in a manner 
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. 
Procedurals are scored as a ten-second penalty, 
no more than one per stage. 
I believe this is in the page 20 or 21 of the handbook.

Just now, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Nope. He was on the fireing line.

Regardless.

He jumped the gun...

Mistake (because I am not going to presume to know his intent)

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where 
the competitor engages the stage in a manner 
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. 
Procedurals are scored as a ten-second penalty, 
no more than one per stage. 
I believe this is in the page 20 or 21 of the handbook.

Where are you getting 'Stage begins at the beep'???

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16 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Nope. He was on the fireing line.

Regardless.

He jumped the gun...

Mistake (because I am not going to presume to know his intent)

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where 
the competitor engages the stage in a manner 
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. 
Procedurals are scored as a ten-second penalty, 
no more than one per stage. 
I believe this is in the page 20 or 21 of the handbook.

Where are you getting 'Stage begins at the beep'???

SHB Glossary.  p44. 

"Stage-  synonymous with "Course of Fire" from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified "ready" to the last shot fired. " 

 

Contrast that to "Firing Line" ( SHB Glossary p 43)

 

"Firing Line - from the first firearm placed on the Loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table."

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9 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Nope. He was on the fireing line.

Regardless.

He jumped the gun...

Mistake (because I am not going to presume to know his intent)

Procedurals are unintentional “mistakes” where 
the competitor engages the stage in a manner 
other than the way it is supposed to be shot. 
Procedurals are scored as a ten-second penalty, 
no more than one per stage. 
I believe this is in the page 20 or 21 of the handbook.

I disagree.  Based on SHB definitions, being on the Firing Line does not legitimatize a firearm discharge.  You must be on the "Stage". 

A shooter would be on the "Firing Line", as defined, while at the loading table, and if he discharged a round there = MDQ.  (SHB p.23)

You are never permitted to   fire a round before the stage begins,  once you enter the firing line. 

 

(SS, It's 10:30 here in CA.  Isn't it 1:30 AM where you are?  Do you ever take time to sleep?)

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A shooter MDQ'd for "jumping the clock" would have legitimate grounds to appeal that call...and would win.

The call is (and always has been) a "P". 

Quote

Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended.

SHB p.21

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While i would give a P if I was operating the timer, I can absolutely see DDD's argumentation for the MDQ based on the SHB's clear definition of Course of Fire / Stage.

 

I think the topic of a jump start should be addressed separately in the SHB. I'd vote for a progressive penalty: P the first time because once it can happen, SDQ the second time because then the shooter is gambling on purpose.

 

Equanimous Phil

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If is determined that the shooter jumped the clock "willfully" "in order to gain a competitive advantage" an SOG would be warranted on top of the "P".

 

Go ahead and assess the MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct" (CHEATING) for repeat offenders.

But a round fired safely downrange from the stage starting position would NOT be the same as one discharged in the loading area.

 

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If is determined that the shooter jumped the clock "willfully" "in order to gain a competitive advantage" an SOG would be warranted on top of the "P".

In other situations the intetion may be 99.9% obvious, but with jumping the clock I wouldn't assume intention unless the shooter admits it was willfully. Or you can say it's ALWAYS willfully, as it needs TWO actions, cycle the rifle AND pull the trigger (or cock the pistol and shoot). On the other hand, it's never an advantage unless someone is pretty sure to get multiple Ps anyway in that stage.

 

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

But a round fired safely downrange from the stage starting position would NOT be the same as one discharged in the loading area.

I fully agree. It's common sense.

 

However, it's not covered in the SHB, neither in the miss flow chart nor anywhere else. The shooter is not on the stage before the beep, just on the firing line. The shooter is not supposed to fire a round while not on the stage. Calling it a negligent discharge doesn't seem to be a too farfetched argumentation to me with the current wording in the SHB.

If you (willfully) shoot after TO says "stop", you get an MDQ. Here, the shooter shoots before the TO starts the stage. What if there was a reason not to start, e.g. seeing someone at the last possible moment who forgot ear or eye protection?

 

What would be the call if the shooter jumps the clock, the TO catches that and doesn't give the beep?

 

Just some thoughts...

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6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

A shooter MDQ'd for "jumping the clock" would have legitimate grounds to appeal that call...and would win.

The call is (and always has been) a "P". 

SHB p.21

 

Dang PWB..... That is exactly what I was thinking.

Great minds.............

 

Happy Holidays Everyone, including the Dairy Queen King.

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Hey!! PWB!!!

 

Remember these???

FAA65A86-F817-4D70-9509-1726538D35A6.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

"IF" and I say "IF" the TO had the were with all and the time to do so, the TO should not have given the BEEP.

So if the TO said "Stand by" and the shooter jumps the beep and starts shooting and the TO never gives the Beep, is it still a procedural?  There is no stage time because the TO never started the timer.  Send the shooter back to the loading table to reload his guns and add a P to his stage time when he does a "reshoot".  No Beep, No penalty?  Reload and reshoot?

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8 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

So if the TO said "Stand by" and the shooter jumps the beep and starts shooting and the TO never gives the Beep, is it still a procedural?  There is no stage time because the TO never started the timer.  Send the shooter back to the loading table to reload his guns and add a P to his stage time when he does a "reshoot".  No Beep, No penalty?  Reload and reshoot?

There would absolutely no doubt the Shooter jumped the beep for sure!  

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

So if the TO said "Stand by" and the shooter jumps the beep and starts shooting and the TO never gives the Beep, is it still a procedural?  There is no stage time because the TO never started the timer.  Send the shooter back to the loading table to reload his guns and add a P to his stage time when he does a "reshoot".  No Beep, No penalty?  Reload and reshoot?

No beep, no time, ask the shooter if he wants to unload, get back in line at the loaded table and shoot this one on the clock. No beep, no penalty carried over.

 

IMHO

Randy

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Re-reading the OP, I think being there would make some difference.  Was it willful? The shooter admits that they shot before the beep, but doesn’t say that they tried to, just that it happened.  So clearly the shooter knows that they made a mistake, the question is what is the penalty for it, that’s where being there could make a difference.  So, not knowing the full circumstances I’d say a P for sure and if was intentional then SOG. 

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2 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

So if the TO said "Stand by" and the shooter jumps the beep and starts shooting and the TO never gives the Beep, is it still a procedural?  There is no stage time because the TO never started the timer.  Send the shooter back to the loading table to reload his guns and add a P to his stage time when he does a "reshoot".  No Beep, No penalty?  Reload and reshoot?

 

I did that once to a shooter who I overheard saying that he had "timed" the delay between the "standby" and the "beep".

I waited until he finished the stage to tell him I hadn't bothered to start the clock after he began firing before the "beep".

He never jumped the timer again after that.

 

Procedurals don't carry over on reshoots (but that would be a clean restart),

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Jeez, all this desire to penalize.

Beep, no beep - doesn't matter.

The most important guidance from the handbook is "Don't be a hardass".

Stop the shooter at the completion of the first firearm (I try to not stop people with live rounds in their gun unless absolutely necessary - its safer).

Inform them that generally we start stages AFTER the beep - and while that was impressive - it didn't count.

Go get ready and we will try this again.

 

As a timer - Im not supposed to let the shooter start in a faulted position.

He was faulted prior to the beep - restart.

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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I did that once to a shooter who I overheard saying that he had "timed" the delay between the "standby" and the "beep".

I waited until he finished the stage to tell him I hadn't bothered to start the clock after he began firing before the "beep".

He never jumped the timer again after that.

 

Procedurals don't carry over on reshoots.

(Correct...just safteys, right?)

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The assessment of a "Spirit of the Game" penalty was beat to death on another thread recently.

 

BTW...the SPOTTERS don't get to vote on non-miss penalties.

They provide input on what they observe regarding violations to the Timer Operator.

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

A shooter MDQ'd for "jumping the clock" would have legitimate grounds to appeal that call...and would win.

The call is (and always has been) a "P". 

SHB p.21

I don't seriously disagree with that call, and it seems more reasonable than a MDQ.   But here are a couple afterthoughts: 

 

A strict reading of the quoted sections leads to some confusion (and I agree it defies common sense and surely defies tradition).   It seems like a close judgmental call to distinguish between somebody discharging a round at the loading table -- or just as they are leave the LT when called up,  and a round fired at any other time from that point to the beep (and beep might be just a few feet away from the LT.)   So does being called up formally end the loading table responsibility? 

If shooter fired his first several shot(s) from a point halfway up to the Stage/beep, would he get a 10 sec "P"? a SOG? or a DQ?  How close does it have to be to the beep to be just "jumping the gun"?   Jumping the gun seems different than "brain fade", e.g.,  shooting targets in the wrong order after the beep), because the shooter who jumps the gun is technically not on the stage yet.   

 

It might be more clear,  if the two definitions were simply reversed:  The "Stage" running from loading to unloading, and the "firing line" running from beep to last shot.  Then a shot fired before the beep would be within the "stage" and would be a "Firing Line" error or "Procedural).   

 

As it reads (as I quoted), the shot fired before the stage begins would have to be regarded either like:

 

1.) firing at the LT =MDQ, or 

2.) a discharge fired anywhere else off of the stage (which formerly you have described as  = no call if off-stage, but MD consider ejecting shooter from the match/range if discharge was unsafe).  

 

It's pretty confusing, unless one ignores the tight rule reading and simply follows common sense and tradition.  

 

 

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I’m with Creeker on this one. I’d stop him after 1st gun. Start over. If it was a constant problem then warn him. If warning not heeded it would be time to consider SOG. 

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21 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I did that once to a shooter who I overheard saying that he had "timed" the delay between the "standby" and the "beep".

I waited until he finished the stage to tell him I hadn't bothered to start the clock after he began firing before the "beep".

He never jumped the timer again after that.

 

Procedurals don't carry over on reshoots (but that would be a clean restart),

That makes the most sense.  Even if the beep occurred, it ought to be a clean restart.  

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3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Jeez, all this desire to penalize.

Beep, no beep - doesn't matter.

The most important guidance from the handbook is "Don't be a hardass".

Stop the shooter at the completion of the first firearm (I try to not stop people with live rounds in their gun unless absolutely necessary - its safer).

Inform them that generally we start stages AFTER the beep - and while that was impressive - it didn't count.

Go get ready and we will try this again.

 

As a timer - Im not supposed to let the shooter start in a faulted position.

He was faulted prior to the beep - restart.

I don't entirely agree. Although it sounds good on paper, what happened to the "after the first shot, you own the stage and must run it to completion".  Just sounds more like an Alibi to avoid a penalty than a restart. There is no allowance for a restart after the first shot is fired. There is allowance for a reshoot after the first shot, does this qualify? I don't think so.

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45 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I don't entirely agree. Although it sounds good on paper, what happened to the "after the first shot, you own the stage and must run it to completion".  Just sounds more like an Alibi to avoid a penalty than a restart. There is no allowance for a restart after the first shot is fired. There is allowance for a reshoot after the first shot, does this qualify? I don't think so.

The "no alibi" is designed to apply to equipment malfunction or brain fade.

 

As a timer - I am allowed to provide restarts to ensure the shooter gets a clean start.

Jumping the start - regardless of round downrange is NOT a clean start.

Maybe I am incorrect; but until clarified otherwise - I will always err to the shooters benefit in these matters.

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5 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The "no alibi" is designed to apply to equipment malfunction or brain fade.

 

As a timer - I am allowed to provide restarts to ensure the shooter gets a clean start.

Jumping the start - regardless of round downrange is NOT a clean start.

Maybe I am incorrect; but until clarified otherwise - I will always err to the shooters benefit in these matters.

I agree.  If the shooter has jumped the beep and I have a choice between beeping, and the shooter accruing a P, or not beeping, stopping the shooter and giving him a clean start, I'm giving him a clean start.

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4 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I did that once to a shooter who I overheard saying that he had "timed" the delay between the "standby" and the "beep".

I waited until he finished the stage to tell him I hadn't bothered to start the clock after he began firing before the "beep".

He never jumped the timer again after that.

 

Not exactly the same scenario, but...  some years ago I noticed some shooters had learned my "cadence" between standby and beep.  So I gave one of 'em the standby, then delayed the beep.  Before I could beep the shooter drew, but realized there had been no beep before firing the first round.  I told the shooter to stop trying to jump the timer.

 

Back then, when I told this story here, I was told I was an asshat and that I should be "consistent with my standby/beep with every shooter, every time." 

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21 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I agree.  If the shooter has jumped the beep and I have a choice between beeping, and the shooter accruing a P, or not beeping, stopping the shooter and giving him a clean start, I'm giving him a clean start.

I agree IF you can stop the shooter before firing a round. Once a round is fired, it is not a restart, it is a reshoot. Least that is how I see it.

SHB page 20 "Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start, before the first round goes down range."

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39 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Not exactly the same scenario, but...  some years ago I noticed some shooters had learned my "cadence" between standby and beep.  So I gave one of 'em the standby, then delayed the beep.  Before I could beep the shooter drew, but realized there had been no beep before firing the first round.  I told the shooter to stop trying to jump the timer.

 

Back then, when I told this story here, I was told I was an asshat and that I should be "consistent with my standby/beep with every shooter, every time." 

 

ROI, pg 8

Quote

Consistent information & communication Always give consistent, complete information about the stage and its navigation, and always read provided stage descriptions word for word. Be consistent in WHAT you say and HOW you say it. Established cadences help to alleviate misunderstandings and false starts and can also help to calm a shooters nerves if they are clear on what to expect from their TO. Common cadence: (after the shooter has indicated ready) “Shooter Ready……pause……Standby……pause……..beep” 

 

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22 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I agree.  If the shooter has jumped the beep and I have a choice between beeping, and the shooter accruing a P, or not beeping, stopping the shooter and giving him a clean start, I'm giving him a clean start.

I sort of agree.

If (a big if) I can stop him before the shooter sends lead downrange I will stop him, say lets try that again, same for a shooter who has dropped his shotgun shells or grabbed the wrong gun, whatever. Lets try again. Restart.

If the shooter is quick enough that he has sent lead downrange before the beep, he now owns the stage and the consequences. "P" and no reshoot.

I would also say some TO's are quick enough to hold off the beep in the roughly 1/2 - 1 second or so between "standby" and "beep". Some are not. But there would be no need for that quick decision/action if the shooter had not anticipated the beep so closely and jumped it. (sometimes incorrectly)

I also don't see how his actions (jumping the beep) are a faulted position. Wrong shooting position - yes. Hands in an incorrect postion - yes. If firearm supposed to be in hand and it is not or wrong firearm in hand - yes. As a TO those kinds of things are as much my responsibility to check as the shooters and should be checked before the beep with the appropriate corrections issued before engaging the stage.

Jumping the beep is an error, nothing more, nothing less and the penalty has been the same (procedural) at every club I have ever shot at.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

 

 

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8 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Hey!! PWB!!!

 

Remember these???

 

15 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

I do and have a 2002, 2004 and 2006 edition.

 

SHB 92-09 (wire).jpg

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