History ?: George Armstrong CUSTER

[Widder, SASS #59054]

In the Civil War, I believe CUSTER achieved the rank of Major General, or some General rank.

 

But, it seems his recorded rank at the Little Big Horn was LT. Col.

 

What happened to cause a demotion?

 

..........Widder

 

[Bart Slade]

Not a demotion.   He was a brevet Major General.   Sort of a field promotion when the army rapidly expands (knowing it will later contract).   So he was given the duties and privledges of a major general, but his official rank at the time was much lower (captain I believe)

[Utah Bob #35998]

Back in that era there was only one medal to award. So when officers conducted themselves well in battle they would be breveted to a higher rank. It was a temporary promotion but not exactly honorary. They would be given a command consummate with their temporary rank. Sometimes that didn’t work out well.

Custer was breveted  to Brigadier at age 23 due to his aggressive command of cavalry troops. By Gettysburg he was a Major General of Volunteers. After the war he reverted to his regular army rank which was Lt. Col. 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Also as a matter of courtesy, just as former presidents and senators are addressed by their former title, Brevet Generally continued to be 

 addressed as General. Custer’s Civil War fame led him to almost always be referred to as General in the press.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks.   Thats interesting.

 

Have a good day.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

That was also a Volunteer rank and the Regular Army couldn't do in grade transfers back to the Regular Army for the officers that it retained post war.  If they did, they could have had Generals running regimemts and battalions, colonels running companies and majors in charge of platoons.

 

Custer went straight from Regular Army Lieutenant to Brigadier of Volunteers.  I have always been amazed that he was made a Lt Colonel.  If he hadn't had patrons like Sheridan, he probably would have ended up a Captain or Major.

[Utah Bob #35998]

3 hours ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

That was also a Volunteer rank and the Regular Army couldn't do in grade transfers back to the Regular Army for the officers that it retained post war.  If they did, they could have had Generals running regimemts and battalions, colonels running companies and majors in charge of platoons.

 

Custer went straight from Regular Army Lieutenant to Brigadier of Volunteers.  I have always been amazed that he was made a Lt Colonel.  If he hadn't had patrons like Sheridan, he probably would have ended up a Captain or Major.

He was lucky to get on McClellan’s staff early on. He developed some very influential friends.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

14 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Back in that era there was only one medal to award. So when officers conducted themselves well in battle they would be breveted to a higher rank. It was a temporary promotion but not exactly honorary. They would be given a command consummate with their temporary rank. Sometimes that didn’t work out well.

Custer was breveted  to Brigadier at age 23 due to his aggressive command of cavalry troops. By Gettysburg he was a Major General of Volunteers. After the war he reverted to his regular army rank which was Lt. Col. 

 

Just a touch of clarification.  At the end of the war he was reduced down to Captain and when they formed the 7th Cavalry, through influence with Sheridan and Sherman he was promoted to Lt Col under Col Sturgis.  Sturgis was the CO of the 7th but was seconded to other duties, leaving Custer in command of the 7th until Little Big Horn fiasco.  Sturgis returned to command the 7th after Custer was killed. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Interesting info.   Thanks.

 

Was CUSTER a well liked person or Officer?

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

32 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Interesting info.   Thanks.

 

Was CUSTER a well liked person or Officer?

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

I seem to remember that he had some issues with Kilpatrick during the war.

 

Then again, a lot of folks took issue with Kilpatrick. Part of the reason why Kilpatrick was sent to the western theater towards the end of the war.

[Utah Bob #35998]

34 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Interesting info.   Thanks.

 

Was CUSTER a well liked person or Officer?

 

..........Widder

 

 

Custer was a complicated individual. It seems that in general, opinions of him were either glowing or very negative, with few in between. He as generally loved by the public thanks to the newspaper stories of his dashing character and battlefield success. He was immensely popular in his home state of Michigan. 
Having graduated last in his class at West Point, many superior officer saw him as a brash, undisciplined junior officer who had no business being appointed to a major command position. 
Dozens of books have been written about him over the years, not to mention movies (mostly bad ones). I have a friend who has stipudied him for decades and still can’t decide if he was a genius or a fool.

I guess he was the 19th century equivalent of George Patton. Aggressive, successful, lucky, and flawed.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

And Sitting Bull made him a private.

[Trailrider #896]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Creek Law Dog said:

 

Just a touch of clarification.  At the end of the war he was reduced down to Captain and when they formed the 7th Cavalry, through influence with Sheridan and Sherman he was promoted to Lt Col under Col Sturgis.  Sturgis was the CO of the 7th but was seconded to other duties, leaving Custer in command of the 7th until Little Big Horn fiasco.  Sturgis returned to command the 7th after Custer was killed. 

That is correct!  When the post-CW Army expanded, it included two new cavalry regiments, the 9th and 10th, both consisting of Black troops commanded by white officers.  The Tenth was commanded by Grierson, who had commanded the raid into Confederate territory, with his 6th Illinois, which bore his name. (John Wayne's character in the movie "The Horse Soldiers" was based on Grierson.) Grierson's second-in-command on the raid was Hatch, who commanded an Iowa cavalry regiment.  When the 9th Cav was formed after the war, Custer was offered command of the 9th, which would have made him a full colonel!  He turned it down!  Instead, he was given second-in-command of the 7th, under Sturgis.  "Somehow" Sturgis always seemed to be TDY to conduct courtmartials, inspections, etc., leaving Autie in command of the 7th.  (Could Custer's being the fair-haired boy of Sheridan, Sherman and Grant have had anything to do with this? Hmm?)  Maybe it is just as well that Custer didn't choose to serve with the Buffalo Soldiers.  Their image and heritage would have been significantly different if Custer had led them into a massacre! 

[Utah Bob #35998]

I served in the 7th. But I was never breveted. 

[El CupAJoe]

A similar system of promotions separate from permanent rank was used during WW2 and I believe WW1 as well.

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

still can’t decide if he was a genius or a fool.

 

Often the difference between the two is dumb luck.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Just as an aside:  Col Sam Sturgis' son, 2Lt James Sturgis served with the 7th and was at Little Big Horn with Custer.  2Lt Sturgis was second in command of E Company under First Lt Algernon Smith.  Both Smith and Sturgis were KIA.  Sturgis' body was never found but, they did find his bloodied underwear in the village after the battle.    

[Utah Bob #35998]

The Brevet system in the US Army was declared obsolete in 1922.

 

[Trailrider #896]

3 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

A similar system of promotions separate from permanent rank was used during WW2 and I believe WW1 as well.

Don't know if it is still in effect, but back in the 1960's reserve officers in the Army and Air Force (don't know about the naval services), could be promoted to temporary rank while on active duty.  For example, at 36 months I was promoted to the temporary rank of captain, with a permanent rank of 1LT.  Upon release from active duty at 42 months, I reverted to my permanent rank of 1LT, until sometime later when my permanent rank was upgraded to captain.  IIRC, Army 1LT's were promoted to temporary captain at 30 months.   Don't really recall about promotions from 2LT to 1LT, but I think Air Force was at 24 months, and Army at 18 months.  The temporary promotions applied only to reserve officers on active duty.  Regular officers did not have this system.  Regular commissions were awarded to graduates of the military academies, and selected reserve officers, plus ROTC distinguished graduates.  Some years ago, Congress killed the automatic regular commissions for academy grads, making them compete with ROTC and OCS officers at certain points.  (And if a "ring knocker" and an ROTC product were evaluated as equal in qualification and service records, guess who got the "regular"?)  

[Utah Bob #35998]

44 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Don't know if it is still in effect, but back in the 1960's reserve officers in the Army and Air Force (don't know about the naval services), could be promoted to temporary rank while on active duty.  For example, at 36 months I was promoted to the temporary rank of captain, with a permanent rank of 1LT.  Upon release from active duty at 42 months, I reverted to my permanent rank of 1LT, until sometime later when my permanent rank was upgraded to captain.  IIRC, Army 1LT's were promoted to temporary captain at 30 months.   Don't really recall about promotions from 2LT to 1LT, but I think Air Force was at 24 months, and Army at 18 months.  The temporary promotions applied only to reserve officers on active duty.  Regular officers did not have this system.  Regular commissions were awarded to graduates of the military academies, and selected reserve officers, plus ROTC distinguished graduates.  Some years ago, Congress killed the automatic regular commissions for academy grads, making them compete with ROTC and OCS officers at certain points.  (And if a "ring knocker" and an ROTC product were evaluated as equal in qualification and service records, guess who got the "regular"?)  

As far as I know that’s still the system. In the 60s it was 12 months to 1st Lt and 12 months to Captain.
There is also a “Frocking” system in place that is sometimes used for senior officers who have been approved for promotion. They are allowed to assume the rank temporarily until officially promoted. Cyrus Cassidy would know more about that. It is not used under the rank of Lt. Col.

[Sedalia Dave]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:08 PM, Utah Bob #35998 said:

As far as I know that’s still the system. In the 60s it was 12 months to 1st Lt and 12 months to Captain.
There is also a “Frocking” system in place that is sometimes used for senior officers who have been approved for promotion. They are allowed to assume the rank temporarily until officially promoted. Cyrus Cassidy would know more about that. It is not used under the rank of Lt. Col.

US Navy does that in a couple of instances.  Officers that are selected for advancement to Captain (0-6) Are allowed to wear the rank from the time of selection until actually awarded the rank. In the interim they still draw Commander (0-5) Pay. As far as I know that is also true for Commodore and Admiral.

 

The other is Chief Petty Officer. Once selected and after completing initiation You wear the rank Of CPO but until actually advanced you still receive E-5 pay. Same is true for SCPO and MCPO.

 

[Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372]

I was frocked to the rank of Major back in the 1980's to take command of a Pershing missile battery.  Didn't get actually promoted to Major for another year.  

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

8 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

US Navy does that in a couple of instances.  Officers that are selected for advancement to Captain (0-6) Are allowed to wear the rank from the time of selection until actually awarded the rank. In the interim they still draw Commander (0-5) Pay. As far as I know that is also true for Commodore and Admiral.

 

The other is Chief Petty Officer. Once selected and after completing initiation You wear the rank Of CPO but until actually advanced you still receive E-5 pay. Same is true for SCPO and MCPO.

 

I was frocked to PO 1st Class in October 1978.  The promotion became official the following February.

[Sedalia Dave]

9 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

I was frocked to PO 1st Class in October 1978.  The promotion became official the following February.

 

Yep, I had forgotten that the Navy did that with the Petty Officer rank as well.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

 

The other is Chief Petty Officer. Once selected and after completing initiation You wear the rank Of CPO but until actually advanced you still receive E-5 pay. Same is true for SCPO and MCPO.

 

 

DAVE,

I think you have to be E-6 before earning the CPO ranking, unless the Navy has now made CPO the title for E-6.     ?

 

And unless something has changed, Commodore is not a present ranking but rather a 'title' that comes with some

O-6 rankings, such as the top guy over Sub Squadrons,   i.e.... ComSubRon-18.

 

..........Widder

 

[Hendo]

7 hours ago, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

I was frocked to the rank of Major back in the 1980's to take command of a Pershing missile battery.  Didn't get actually promoted to Major for another year.  

Ah, that brings back memories of Schwabisch Gmund. 

[Trailrider #896]

When Ol' Iron @$$ Curtis Lemay commanded the Strategic Air Command (SAC), and for a while after, he had a system of spot promotions for lead bomber crews. If the whole crew on a B-47 or B-52 were designated, they received a temporary promotion of one rank.  As long as the whole crew maintained proficiency, they kept their "spot".  But let one of them fail a test or mess up, and the whole crew lost their spots. I don't know if they drew the pay of the spot, but it was certainly a way to insure teamwork an the incentive to maintain the excellence that CINCSAC demanded.  Never had that in missiles.

[Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372]

2 hours ago, Hendo said:

Ah, that brings back memories of Schwabisch Gmund. 

Hopefully some pleasant ones in there.  I was at Neu Ulm.  Liked the place, but they dragged me in to Pershing..

[Hendo]

22 minutes ago, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

Hopefully some pleasant ones in there.  I was at Neu Ulm.  Liked the place, but they dragged me in to Pershing..

Pershing units were different.

I was a mechanic, but it seemed more like I was a guard. When the motor pool ran short of E-5s, being a E-4 on the promotion list, I got to do most of their duties. (Hated the term "acting sergeant".)