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1873 lifter position


Cockney Rebel
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5 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Hi, I just bought a new/used Navy Arms/Uberti 1873 and, at rest, the lifter protudes slightly from the receiver.  Is this normal?

1873 lifter.jpg

I see the "carrier" slightly protruding, but the "lifter" isn't visible in the photo.  

 

Seriously, the carrier can sag a certain amount without being a problem, as others have posted.  But don't just assume.  You need to test the action with rapid, live fire.  If it feeds OK then you're probably done for now, or you can tighten the lifter spring to raise the carrier into flush position for cosmetic sake.  (Caution:  Open the side plates and gently lift the spring off of its articulation point at the lever before tightening the adjustment screw, or you are likely to strip the cheap Uberti screw head).

 

  But be aware that with a used gun, the lifter (or lever) could be bent by past out-of-battery discharges.  Neither is very visible upon inspection, but either bent part can cause the carrier to rest in lower position.  So closely evaluate the action timing to be sure the carrier is rising completely, every time, when the lever is opened.   If in normal rapid use you start feeling repeated but very minor OOBDs, that is one symptom of a bent lever (edited DDD)   But the OOBDs can also be caused by other problems, like poor fitting or removal of the lever safety, or non-matched parts from different short stroke kits installed in the past. 

  Again, Don't Assume.  Take time to inspect and thoroughly test fire the gun. 

I hope this is helpful.  

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Dusty,  Thanks for the details and correcting my mis-naming.  I have also called it an elevator in the past.

I will run through some dummy rounds first.  The rifle doesn't appear to have been slicked up in the past but I intend to do a basic field strip and inspect but I am not very knowledgeable on what to look for.  Is there a good reference somewhere?

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44 minutes ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Dusty,  Thanks for the details and correcting my mis-naming.  I have also called it an elevator in the past.

I will run through some dummy rounds first.  The rifle doesn't appear to have been slicked up in the past but I intend to do a basic field strip and inspect but I am not very knowledgeable on what to look for.  Is there a good reference somewhere?

This may help a bit.

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48 minutes ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Dusty,  Thanks for the details and correcting my mis-naming.  I have also called it an elevator in the past.

I will run through some dummy rounds first.  The rifle doesn't appear to have been slicked up in the past but I intend to do a basic field strip and inspect but I am not very knowledgeable on what to look for.  Is there a good reference somewhere?

I'm aware of good videos on disassembly and reassembly, but I've never found a source for  troubleshooting timing problems, other than other knowledgeable shooters and CAS-gun- knowledgeable gunsmiths.  It is likely that people in your club(s) can provide help if you ask around.  And maybe someone here on the Wire has knowledge of a '73 rifle  troubleshooting guide of some kind and can chime in. 

 

As far as testing, using dummy rounds won't tell you the critical thing you need to know, about OOBDs.  I've had the bent lifter problem, and it only caused OOBDs on rapid, live fire.   

  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Maybe this will help http://marauder.homestead.com/rifles.html

 

and here are some more links that might help. https://www.startpage.com/sp/search

Edited by Tequila Shooter
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57 minutes ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Dusty,  Thanks for the details and correcting my mis-naming.  I have also called it an elevator in the past.

The part you are referring to is indeed correctly and universally acceptable to be  referred to as the lifter, elevator, carrier block, riser, etc.  

 

This may be a case of name change creep after the fact - but in the 150+ years since its design - the part providing that function in a firearm has been designated with those terms interchangeable. 

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In re-reading my earlier post, I made an error.  A bent lever can easily cause an OOBD problem, by failure to fully close the bolt at the time of firing.   But a bent lifter is unlikely to cause the problem.  Rather, the bent lifter can be a RESULT of an OOBD, if the carrier is forced downward against the top of the lifter.  The lifter can also be bent if the carrier is levered upward against an obstruction, like a round not properly chambered or extracted, or the front end of the bolt, if the rifle is mis-timed.

Either way, a bent lifter could be causing the carrier misalignment you are seeing.   

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Of course .. if  you have a SS in there ... and a large caliber ... (the case is larger in diameter than a small caliber) ... this provides a head start (for reward bolt movement to get the tab out of the way before the case gets up there ... w/o as much of a stroke length penalty). 

It is all in their instructions (C&I) ... (how to deal with it no matter where it is sitting) ... good information in any case ..

 

986359479_carrierposition.jpg.f8ef16a552e6edd406299e6c418a7333.jpg

 

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1 minute ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Without a known good lifter, how would I be able to determine?

With the lever closed ... the lever and link pins should be in alignment. I think they mention that in their instructions also. 

But .. of course ... if all three pins were not in alignment w/ in battery then the action would not be very strong. 

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19 minutes ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Without a known good lifter, how would I be able to determine?

If rounds are feeding and chambering properly when rapidly live fired, you likely don't have a problem.   Just adjust the lifter spring if you don't like the appearance. 

 

Keep in mind that operator lever-trigger timing also plays a big role in proper action function.  Dry firing with a chambered DUMMY round is the best way I know to perfect shooter timing.  File the top dummy cartridge rim off, so the ejector does not catch it with levering.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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I'd like to wade in here for just a moment or two.  First:  You cannot "bend" a toggle link Lifter (Carrier Block).  It is a solid lump.  The only part that might be bent by an Out Of Battery Discharge, besides the lever, is the Carrier Block Arm.  The Carrier Bock Arm is powered by the lever side spring.  There is NO adjustment unless someone has already loosened it's screw and there is NO articulation point.  The spring flexes.  It does NOT articulate.  Some folks erroneously attempt to "adjust" the spring tension by loosening the attachment screw.  NOT a good idea.  Fix the spring.  The lever side spring is not properly fit to the action at the factory.  That causes binding of the attachment screw.  Uberti screw are not "cheap Italian screw Heads".  Until removed for the first time (there is a technique), the Side Spring Screws bind and are very difficult to remove.  Once you learn the tricks, it's pretty simple and the screws will last a good long time.  Very important:  Invest in well fitted screw drivers/Bits.

 

Second:  You can determine correct timing and alignment of the Carrier Block with "Dummy" cartridges.  You just have to know what you're doing.  Out Of Battery Discharge is caused by poor operation of the the rifle by the operator and the foolish removal of some key parts. 

 

Unless well versed in the operation of a Toggle Link Rifle, you're flying blind.  As pointed out by Capt. Burt, Carrier Block, Carrier, and Lifter are often used interchangeably.

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7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If rounds are feeding and chambering properly when rapidly live fired, you likely don't have a problem.   Just adjust the lifter spring if you don't like the appearance. ...

Adjusting the carrier spring tension will not make the carrier move back up into the action.  It is the lifter arm that determines where it bottoms out.

 

12 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...  Some folks erroneously attempt to "adjust" the spring tension by loosening the attachment screw.  NOT a good idea. ...

 

But that is the way the rifle was originally designed.  In the original operating instructions for the '66 and '73 (I haven't seen Henry instructions), it states that these springs are adjustable by the user by tightening the screws in the case that the springs lose some tension and need more tension for the rifle to operate properly.  Now, this clearly indicates that the springs were not screwed all the way down at the factory, so that they could be screwed in if and when needed for more tension.  Uberti has ignored this and that is why their rifles or so "over-sprung" from the factory.  Loosening those screws, within reason, makes a huge difference in the feel of the action on a stock Uberti.  On a tuned rifle with lighter springs, that is a different animal.

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5 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Adjusting the carrier spring tension will not make the carrier move back up into the action. 

Can you explain what you mean by "carrier spring tensoin"?   I assume you are referring to the spring tension on the arm that elevates the carrier.   

 

Lots of nomenclature problems here.  In looking at parts diagrams today, I've found the lifter arm referred to as the "lifter", "Lifter Arm", and "Carrier Block Lifter Arm."   

 

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5 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

You cannot "bend" a toggle link Lifter (Carrier Block).  It is a solid lump.  The only part that might be bent by an Out Of Battery Discharge, besides the lever, is the Carrier Block Arm.  The Carrier Bock Arm is powered by the lever side spring.  

Were you referring to my descriptions?  If so, I don't believe I said anything about a carrier block becoming bent.   I described a bent lever and/or lifter (meaning carrier lifter arm).   

 

Please help me understand the mechanics of an OOBD bending a carrier block lifter arm, unless it is bent by continuing to operate afterward with a bent lever that is out of time, forcing the carrier block upward against something immovable--either the bolt front or a round that is only partially  chambered.   What am I misunderstanding?

 

 

 

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I just ran some dummy rounds through it and it seems to work fine on first pass. 

Only issue I had, when loading multiple rounds in the magazine tube, was that the first round loaded crooked into the brass lifter.  I am putting that down to my technique as subsequent tries did not have the same issue.  I will be doing a tear down later to check the state of internals.  Italian proof codes puts this at 1977 so I am assuming most parts will have worn smooth already/

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DDD, Certainly.  The "Lifter" or "Carrier Block" is a completely different "part" from The Carrier Block Arm.  Your reference was to the "Lifter."  A "Lifter" raises the cartridge into position.  The Carrier Block Arm raises the Carrier Block or "Lifter" into position.  Trying to "adjust" the retaining screw to the Carrier Block Arm will often result in the spring failing to hold the Carrier Block fully "UP" which will jam the rifle.  That spring needs removed from the rifle and the rear of the spring boss shaped to match the radius of the frame so it will sit flat in the frame.  This also relieves the side stress on the screw, making removal and re-install a piece of cake.

 

Applying "Original" Winchester suggestions to a Uberti is a mistake.  The original Winchester parts fit.  Uberti parts don't.  the correct methods for Uberti rifles are to either fix and tune the spring or replace the spring with springs from The Smith Shop or springs from SlixSprings.  Doing something you can get away with is not the same as doing it right. 

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21 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

DDD, Certainly.  The "Lifter" or "Carrier Block" is a completely different "part" from The Carrier Block Arm.  Your reference was to the "Lifter."  A "Lifter" raises the cartridge into position.  The Carrier Block Arm raises the Carrier Block or "Lifter" into position.  Trying to "adjust" the retaining screw to the Carrier Block Arm will often result in the spring failing to hold the Carrier Block fully "UP" which will jam the rifle.  That spring needs removed from the rifle and the rear of the spring boss shaped to match the radius of the frame so it will sit flat in the frame.  This also relieves the side stress on the screw, making removal and re-install a piece of cake.

 

Applying "Original" Winchester suggestions to a Uberti is a mistake.  The original Winchester parts fit.  Uberti parts don't.  the correct methods for Uberti rifles are to either fix and tune the spring or replace the spring with springs from The Smith Shop or springs from SlixSprings.  Doing something you can get away with is not the same as doing it right. 

The top item is just semantics.  To me and most parts lists, the lifter is the lever that lifts the carrier and cartridge.  The carrier block is what transports the cartridges from the mag to the breech for loading.  

 

The second item is a good discussion.  I think a lot of us have been using the spring attachment screw as a tension adjustment screw, based on guidance in several online videos.  What you are saying makes a lot of sense, particularly for precise repeatability.  

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3 hours ago, Cockney Rebel said:

I just ran some dummy rounds through it and it seems to work fine on first pass. 

Only issue I had, when loading multiple rounds in the magazine tube, was that the first round loaded crooked into the brass lifter.  I am putting that down to my technique as subsequent tries did not have the same issue.  I will be doing a tear down later to check the state of internals.  Italian proof codes puts this at 1977 so I am assuming most parts will have worn smooth already/

 

The reason a round might be a bit crooked on the carrier block is the cutout for the loading gate.  Once the bolt starts it's forward travel, the cartridge will straighten on the block and chamber properly.

 

793594.jpg.b2d099ee9f16eec0fcc4adc5df4a7983.jpg

 

One caveat, and the source of many Out of Battery Discharges, is trying to force a round into the chamber that doesn't want to go.  If there is a problem with a cartridge, it's more than worth the time to eject it and go on to the next one.

 

 

 

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Reference the last round loaded being a little sidewise in the Carrier Block.  This is common and quite NORMAL.  However, there is suppose to be a nice tasty bevel at the back of the Carrier Block mortice that guides the cartridge back into line.  The bevel belongs at the bottom of the back wall.  Look for it.  If it isn't there, use a small file to add about a 45 degree bevel to that edge of the back wall.

 

After 25 years as a CAS Gunsmith, building competition Toggle Link rifles, I don't have to guess, or refer to parts diagrams to know what each part is and does.  I know what they are and precisely how they work.  There are no alibi "Semantics."

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
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On 12/3/2021 at 12:53 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Reference the last round loaded being a little sidewise in the Carrier Block.  This is common and quite NORMAL.  However, there is suppose to be a nice tasty bevel at the back of the Carrier Block mortice that guides the cartridge back into line.  The bevel belongs at the bottom of the back wall.  Look for it.  If it isn't there, use a small file to add about a 45 degree bevel to that edge of the back wall.

 

After 25 years as a CAS Gunsmith, building competition Toggle Link rifles, I don't have to guess, or refer to parts diagrams to know what each part is and does.  I know what they are and precisely how they work.  There are no alibi "Semantics."

Seems to me if we are discussing what words or names to correctly apply to gun parts, we are having a "semantics" discussion-- by definition.  Nothing to do with any alibi, just parts names.  

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On 12/3/2021 at 11:14 AM, McCandless said:

 

The reason a round might be a bit crooked on the carrier block is the cutout for the loading gate.  Once the bolt starts it's forward travel, the cartridge will straighten on the block and chamber properly.

 

793594.jpg.b2d099ee9f16eec0fcc4adc5df4a7983.jpg

 

One caveat, and the source of many Out of Battery Discharges, is trying to force a round into the chamber that doesn't want to go.  If there is a problem with a cartridge, it's more than worth the time to eject it and go on to the next one.

 

 

 

Just made up 10 dummy rounds and the last to load doesn't fit straight into the carrier and so I can't eject it.  I found I needed to push it further into the carrier, with another round for it to then sit straight.  The 11th round was just used to push the 10th round further in.  i did not load 11.

IMG_4829.jpg

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46 minutes ago, Cockney Rebel said:

Just made up 10 dummy rounds and the last to load doesn't fit straight into the carrier and so I can't eject it.  I found I needed to push it further into the carrier, with another round for it to then sit straight.  The 11th round was just used to push the 10th round further in.  i did not load 11.

 

 

See Coffinmaker's info above about needing to file a bevel onto a certain point into the frame's opening for the carrier.  The edge of the cocked cartridges rim is catching under a sharp corner of the frame there.  Some years ago Uberti forgot to add that bevel to some frames and a lot of them needed it at that time.  An extra strong magazine spring can make the problem worse.

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It also appears your loading 357 Brass ???  It also appears you're loading and crimping the bullet just below the crimp groove.  With 357 Brass, you don't need to load the bullet "long."  Go for crimping into the crimp groove.

 

Next item up for bids.  I have no idea what has been done to your rifle in the past.  However;  Uberti magazine springs are over sprung.  You only need between two and three inches of spring sticking out beyond the end of the Magazine tube, when empty, with the cap off.  Put the "cut" end next to the plug.  Re-install the plug with a light coat of anti-seize lube (Auto parts store) and don't torque down the plug like a lug nut.  Just tight will do nicely.

 

And while you have the spring and follower out of the magazine tube, you can remove the "no extra cost" rust included from the factory (yes . . even when brand new).  Then lubricate the inside of the tube with a lube that dries completely.  Like Boshield T-9, or One Shot.  Do that once or twice a year. 

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This is 44-40 loaded with Buffalo Arms soft lead billets which actually don’t have a crimp groove.  I used a vintage Winchester loading tool.  I have still to do a strip down and clean up.  I have a can of Sure Shot so I appreciate that tip.

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WOW.  My Bad.  Too much Shadow in your photo, but, I should have noticed the top of the Carrier Block is "Wider."  OOPS.  So:  Keep doing what you're doing.  That is in fact a right nice crimp.  Sufficient to promote a good burn and prevent "Turtles."

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That is the very common loading gate mortise missing bevel problem.  Uberti "installed" this unwanted mod  in many toggle guns in the 2000s and 2010s.

 

Here's a good walkthrough for fixing the bevels on the frame.

http://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info/

 

Then click the article titled:

Model 66 & 73 frame modification to improve feeding of the first round

 

Until that is fixed, the cartridge can be straightened with your pinky shoved in the loading gate opening -  push foward on base of last cartridge loaded until cartridge slides over to the left.  Then handle gun gently from loading table to firing line so it won't jar the cartridge over to the right again.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

It also appears your loading 357 Brass ???  It also appears you're loading and crimping the bullet just below the crimp groove.  With 357 Brass, you don't need to load the bullet "long."  Go for crimping into the crimp groove.

 

Next item up for bids.  I have no idea what has been done to your rifle in the past.  However;  Uberti magazine springs are over sprung.  You only need between two and three inches of spring sticking out beyond the end of the Magazine tube, when empty, with the cap off.  Put the "cut" end next to the plug.  Re-install the plug with a light coat of anti-seize lube (Auto parts store) and don't torque down the plug like a lug nut.  Just tight will do nicely.

 

And while you have the spring and follower out of the magazine tube, you can remove the "no extra cost" rust included from the factory (yes . . even when brand new).  Then lubricate the inside of the tube with a lube that dries completely.  Like Boshield T-9, or One Shot.  Do that once or twice a year. 

Looks like a i need a special wrench for the mag tube?

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For a Uberti factory mag plug - A large flat bladed screwdriver thinned to fit the slot tightly will work.  IF you know how to use a gunsmith screwdriver correctly, with a LOT of pressure applied axially into the bit to keep it from wallowing out the slot.

 

Brownells sells a flat tip (1/4" bit) that works fine.   MagnaTip Part 340-6.

Several parts vendors have different "slot wrenches" for that.  

Most cowboy shooters have one you can borrow this time.

 

Uberti often leaves the inside of the mag and mag cap unprotected, and they rust a bit.   Screw cap will be tight upon the first removal.  Then scrub mag tube with 20 gauge shotgun brush until clean.   Clean spring.  Clean cap threads.  Apply anti-seize lube or in a pinch, wheel bearing grease to the threads.  Use a spray lube that dries to touch for the mag tube and spring.   Eezox or Boeshield T-9 are a couple that work well.

 

A complete set of Brownell's MagnaTip bits to fit that 1873 rifle would be:

180-4
210-3
240-3
240-4
340-4
340-6

 

If you haven't yet removed many of the screws in the 1873, you will find many are over-torqued at factory.  A hand impact driver ( 1/4" bit) is the safest way to get the screws loosened.

 

Like: https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool-W2503-Impact-Extractor/dp/B00MXFFPVY

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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I think I am going to go with the Slix Shot wrench which also takes standard 1/4" bits, giving me a bit more leverage if/when I need it.  Plus it has a wrench for Stoeger firing pins, which could be useful as I have a Stoeger coach gun.

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