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WtC? Spirit of the Game


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I understand the P with the first revolver.

 

I'll set aside the second revolver and shooting out of category for the second revolver.

 

Shooter is supposed to do a double-tap sweep of the rifle targets; Shooter dumps all ten rounds on one target. Only two if those rounds were intended for that target.

 

Why is that a "free pass" after the P rather than 8 misses?

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29 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I understand the P with the first revolver.

 

I'll set aside the second revolver and shooting out of category for the second revolver.

 

Shooter is supposed to do a double-tap sweep of the rifle targets; Shooter dumps all ten rounds on one target. Only two if those rounds were intended for that target.

 

Why is that a "free pass" after the P rather than 8 misses?

 

John,

Because there were NO misses.   The appropriate type targets were hit with the appropriate type firearm.

 

Have a Happy and Blessed Holiday Season.

 

..........Widder

 

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7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I could not possibly care less about the time, effort or expense of anyones voluntary choice.

 

You are truly a class act.   <_<

 

Aren't the folks who put on the monthly SASS matches voluntarily donating their time, effort and expense to make them happen?

 

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9 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I could not possibly care less about the time, effort or expense of anyones voluntary choice.

A video venue has been created to have a platform to expound as an authority on a given topic.

There is no "in my opinion" or "in my understanding" - there is "here is how it is".

 

In the absence of an official sanctioned platform doing the same - these videos become defacto fact simply by the ability to present it as such without debate or opposing viewpoint.

The very definition of a bully pulpit.

 

No one "slapped anyone" nor embarked on personal attack - I pointed out via a reasoned debate that actually used the REAL WORDS and the definitions thereof of those REAL WORDS used in the rule.

 

As to "don't take kindly" 

I fully agree, I dont take kindly to being expected to remain silent for fear of offending while blindly accepting everything presented to me.

Yeah, I've caught on now. You've explained yourself very well. I hope you have a great day!

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13 hours ago, Alchemist Belle 93666 said:

My personal thoughts...

2021-12-02-19-20-28-898.jpg

It's time to study the definition of the phrase "bully pulpit" and it is a phrase, not two words.

 

Bully Pulpit
[ˈbo͝olē ˈpo͝olˌpit, ˈpo͝olpət]
 
NOUN
NORTH AMERICAN
  1. a public office or position of authority that provides its occupant with an outstanding opportunity to speak out on any issue.
    "he could use the presidency as a bully pulpit to bring out the best in civic life"
     
    Creeker, could, be describing the SASS Wire Forum as the "bully pulpit"
     
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13 hours ago, Cholla said:

The big question is...is Branchwater Jack one of triplets?  :blink:  Them other two guys sure have a strong resemblance! :P

Lack of DNA types down there?

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This will be my last post on this thread as the Mob has spoken.

Disagreement is attack and resistence is futile.

 

A little context.

The Spirit of the Game penalty came into being when "on the clock - non shooting" activities were much more common.

 

Meaning you could have a required component of the stage that exceeded 10 seconds that was not shooting.

 

The example that used to be in the handbook was one of "roping a steer" prior to shooting.  A shooter becomes aware that most are struggling with this task for much longer than 10 seconds and so INSTEAD of fulfilling the stage requirement - they simply drop the rope, earn the P and proceed to shooting - but obtaining a "competitive advantage" by their dis regard of stage instruction.

 

Another example is multiple windows - shooters must move back and forth window to window with each gun and between shotgun rounds.  A shooter becomes aware that this movement is eating well more than 10 seconds and so INSTEAD of fulfilling the stage requirement - they simply remain at a single window, earn the P - but obtaining a "competitive advantage" by their disregard of stage instruction.

 

This is how the "competitive advantage" clause is designed to be understood because it only applies if the shooter chooses to take this course of action versus a task that will take another shooter (their competition) more than 10 seconds.

 

I am not arguing that there should be no penalty for the deliberate disregard of stage instruction or blatant attempts to mitigate the damage of an unintentional error.

 

But Spirit of the Game as it is written is not that catch all simply because it has been incorrectly presented and applied as such in the past. 

As Branchwater states - he seeks guidance on his content, but just because multiple people make the same mistake or state the same thing with conviction doesn't make it accurate.

 

Lastly - I am well aware of the time and sacrifices required to give back to our game.  I applaud anyone who does so - I did so for nearly 20 years as a club VP, President and Match Director.

The term Bully Pulpit is a phrase coined by Teddy Roosevelt, as explained earlier in this thread, meaning having an raised position to communicate and sway opinion from without similar counterpoint. 

I did not insinuate anyone was a Bully.

 

Ask anyone who knows me - I am not demur nor withdrawn.  I have my opinions (often wrong) and I defend them with passion.

But that passion can come across as aggression and to anyone who feels I wronged them - I will offer my apology.

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7 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Because there were NO misses.   The appropriate type targets were hit with the appropriate type firearm.

I've looked at the flow chart many times and missed the significance of this word.

 

I would have considered those 8 rifle rounds misses because they did not hit the intended target, but now I see that is what makes it a P.

 

On that (my) incorrect interpretation, I kind of did this once. Rolling along on some sweep, had a problem with my 2nd revolver. Resolved the problem.

 

Look back at the targets and realize I lost my place. I had absolutely no idea how many rounds I had already fired. Picked some middle target and dumped figuring at least one and maybe two would not be misses. And made sure I ran through the cylinder a second time on the clock before going to the next firearm because an unfired round could be a very bad thing. Six more clicks.

 

Never did look at my time for that stage -- it was a train wreck -- but now see a P would be the correct call. So picking up the defined sweep at any arbitrary plate would have been a better choice.

 

But would/could I have earned a SOG for it? I don't think my actions (including running the cylinder a second time) showed intent to gain an advantage. Well, other than avoiding a penalty for live rounds. But I did misunderstand my last shots were not accumulating misses and I was trying to minimize them.

 

I do see the example in the video was blatant. And part of me still feels there should have been 8 rifle misses. But the flow chart does not support this interpretation.

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4 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I've looked at the flow chart many times and missed the significance of this word.

 

I would have considered those 8 rifle rounds misses because they did not hit the intended target, but now I see that is what makes it a P.

 

On that (my) incorrect interpretation, I kind of did this once. Rolling along on some sweep, had a problem with my 2nd revolver. Resolved the problem.

 

Look back at the targets and realize I lost my place. I had absolutely no idea how many rounds I had already fired. Picked some middle target and dumped figuring at least one and maybe two would not be misses. And made sure I ran through the cylinder a second time on the clock before going to the next firearm because an unfired round could be a very bad thing. Six more clicks.

 

Never did look at my time for that stage -- it was a train wreck -- but now see a P would be the correct call. So picking up the defined sweep at any arbitrary plate would have been a better choice.

 

But would/could I have earned a SOG for it? I don't think my actions (including running the cylinder a second time) showed intent to gain an advantage. Well, other than avoiding a penalty for live rounds. But I did misunderstand my last shots were not accumulating misses and I was trying to minimize them.

 

I do see the example in the video was blatant. And part of me still feels there should have been 8 rifle misses. But the flow chart does not support this interpretation.

See my reply earlier about being "lost as last years Easter eggs".

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You STILL hunting that blame ole Easter egg?

I forgot to tell you that I found it while at your house in October.  It was slightly spoiled so I

chucked it in the woods.

(actually, it was a prize egg with a $10 prize.  That's what I used to buy our  breakfast biscuits.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The example that used to be in the handbook was one of "roping a steer" prior to shooting.  A shooter becomes aware that most are struggling with this task for much longer than 10 seconds and so INSTEAD of fulfilling the stage requirement - they simply drop the rope, earn the P and proceed to shooting - but obtaining a "competitive advantage" by their dis regard of stage instruction.

 

Another example is multiple windows - shooters must move back and forth window to window with each gun and between shotgun rounds.  A shooter becomes aware that this movement is eating well more than 10 seconds and so INSTEAD of fulfilling the stage requirement - they simply remain at a single window, earn the P - but obtaining a "competitive advantage" by their disregard of stage instruction.

So you think these actions deserve a SOG penalty but a duelist shooter shooting traditional style doesn't?

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1 hour ago, Sidekick said:

So you think these actions deserve a SOG penalty but a duelist shooter shooting traditional style doesn't?

You can only get One procedural penalty per stage. The first P is the one awarded. That was shooting out of order. The Second P was duelist using both hands.

If a B Western/Classic Cowboy showed up to a stage with "out of category" equipment/leather/clothing, and shot the stage incorrectly, the P would be given for the Out of Category, as it's the First P earned.

Same as a Duelist/Gunfighter shooting with both hands on one gun, then shooting the stage incorrectly. The P is given for the First P earned, the shooting out of category.

Both my examples of Shooting out of Category, are progressive penalties. The next time they do it, first, they get a SDQ then a MDQ.

 

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1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

You can only get One procedural penalty per stage. The first P is the one awarded. That was shooting out of order. The Second P was duelist using both hands.

If a B Western/Classic Cowboy showed up to a stage with "out of category" equipment/leather/clothing, and shot the stage incorrectly, the P would be given for the Out of Category, as it's the First P earned.

Same as a Duelist/Gunfighter shooting with both hands on one gun, then shooting the stage incorrectly. The P is given for the First P earned, the shooting out of category.

Both my examples of Shooting out of Category, are progressive penalties. The next time they do it, first, they get a SDQ then a MDQ.

 

 

Agree that you can only get one procedural penalty per stage. However, consider the following...

 

According to the SHB, if revolvers are not returned to leather at the end of the shooting string, the shooter would be awarded a procedural.

 

In the event that a shooter already had a procedural and then, to save time, did not holster, could the Spirit of the Game penalty apply?

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4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

See my reply earlier about being "lost as last years Easter eggs".

Been there, done that.

It actually took me a while before the "just don't miss" after a P finally sunk in.

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13 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Agree that you can only get one procedural penalty per stage. However, consider the following...

 

According to the SHB, if revolvers are not returned to leather at the end of the shooting string, the shooter would be awarded a procedural.

 

In the event that a shooter already had a procedural and then, to save time, did not holster, could the Spirit of the Game penalty apply?

 

YES.

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14 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Agree that you can only get one procedural penalty per stage. However, consider the following...

 

According to the SHB, if revolvers are not returned to leather at the end of the shooting string, the shooter would be awarded a procedural.

 

In the event that a shooter already had a procedural and then, to save time, did not holster, could the Spirit of the Game penalty apply?

Wouldn't this fall under having to judge intent?

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13 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Agree that you can only get one procedural penalty per stage. However, consider the following...

 

According to the SHB, if revolvers are not returned to leather at the end of the shooting string, the shooter would be awarded a procedural.

 

In the event that a shooter already had a procedural and then, to save time, did not holster, could the Spirit of the Game penalty apply?

Deleted by FWR. Went back and read the last line in this quote.

 

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1 minute ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Not thinking the ability to "gain a competitive advantage" by not holstering is worth more than 10 seconds. Unless you positively know the shooter would have dropped a revolver or would have spent more than 10 seconds reholstering.

 

I am curious where the thought that the action that the shooter committed in order to gain a competitive advantage must be more than 10 seconds in order to award a SOG penalty comes from?

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5 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Not thinking the ability to "gain a competitive advantage" by not holstering is worth more than 10 seconds. Unless you positively know the shooter would have dropped a revolver or would have spent more than 10 seconds reholstering.

 

The amount of time saved by "willfully" doing something "in order to" offset any part of the 10-second Procedural penalty is irrelevant.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

I am curious where the thought that the action that the shooter committed in order to gain a competitive advantage must be more than 10 seconds in order to award a SOG penalty comes from?

Deleted by FWR

 

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I am in awe of all the logic and attempts to put into words The Spirit of the Game Penalty.  I am not trying to be flippant or smart al-ick"ie", however if I dump rounds one one target versus multiple targets, I promise, I am gonna get it done faster.  Getting it done faster is an advantage. 

 

Thanks   

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ONLY infraction on the stage, everything else done CORRECTLY.

   Two shooters do not run to the end of the stage to shoot one of their pistols or come back to the starting point to shoot their last pistol. Instead, they shoot both from the starting location.

 

  Shooter one says crap, I forgot to change locations to shoot.

 

  Shooter two says it would've taken me longer to change locations than the P I plan on getting.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

I'm saying I can't, and will not, judge intent. I leave my Karnak the Great turban at home. If it seems a "brain fade" it's a P. If I ask why and he says " it's faster" then it's a P + SOG.

We're taught, and drummed into us, that we don't judge intent.

Or is this a different situation as in All animals are equal but some are more equal than others?

 

Ramrod, I may be wrong but I think PWB was making that call based on Branchwater Jack's saying "to save time" taking the guesswork out of why the shooter did it in that particular scenario.

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Ramrod, I may be wrong but I think PWB was making that call based on Branchwater Jack's saying "to save time" taking the guesswork out of why the shooter did it in that particular scenario.

 

And, for full context, the question I asked and the answer @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495Lprovided was taken directly the 2015 TG meeting. 

 

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/TG Summit Meeting minutes DEC 2015 (FINAL).pdf

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15 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

ONLY infraction on the stage, everything else done CORRECTLY.

   Two shooters do not run to the end of the stage to shoot one of their pistols or come back to the starting point to shoot their last pistol. Instead, they shoot both from the starting location.

 

  Shooter one says crap, I forgot to change locations to shoot.

 

  Shooter two says it would've taken me longer to change locations than the P I plan on getting.

 

 

 

We also have to consider that when WE fail to change shooting positions,  the targets we are suppose to be shooting are normally AT

that next shooting position.   Therefore, we would not only earn the 'P', but our targets might be in a position as to earn us a few 'Misses'.

OUCH!

 

Dang TN, whatja doin up so early?

 

..........Widder

 

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This has been a very interesting discussion.

 

Valuable in many positive ways.

 

Thanks, all.

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1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

We also have to consider that when WE fail to change shooting positions,  the targets we are suppose to be shooting are normally AT

that next shooting position.   Therefore, we would not only earn the 'P', but our targets might be in a position as to earn us a few 'Misses'.

OUCH!

 

..........Widder

 

 

Or offer an angle that leads to lead splatter/ricochets in a very unwanted direction.

 

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52 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Ramrod, I may be wrong but I think PWB was making that call based on Branchwater Jack's saying "to save time" taking the guesswork out of why the shooter did it in that particular scenario.

Deleted by FWR

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8 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

We also have to consider that when WE fail to change shooting positions,  the targets we are suppose to be shooting are normally AT

that next shooting position.   Therefore, we would not only earn the 'P', but our targets might be in a position as to earn us a few 'Misses'.

OUCH!

 

5 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

Or offer an angle that leads to lead splatter/ricochets in a very unwanted direction.

 

Your scenario is also one of the only times that a shooter is allowed to reload to make up for Miss....as, if they are unable to engage the pistol targets from their location, to put a pistol in a condition safe for movement, they have to discharge the round down range.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

And, for full context, the question I asked and the answer @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495Lprovided was taken directly the 2015 TG meeting. 

 

http://www.oowss.com/_RO_ Corner/TG Summit Meeting minutes DEC 2015 (FINAL).pdf

Deleted, I need to read the entire post before replying

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

And the full discussion states:

"TG Discussion: The ROC believes this is not a safety procedural but a procedure issue. The Spirit of the Game penalty could be used for someone that already had a procedural and did not holster to save time. No other discussion."

Note: it, clearly states, "already had a procedural" Not forgot to re-holster.

Again, use of the entire context is critical in these instances.

 

And, was that context not in my question:

 

13 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

In the event that a shooter already had a procedural and then, to save time, did not holster, could the Spirit of the Game penalty apply?

 

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16 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

And, was that context not in my question:

 

 

And there in lies the rub. I missed that last part of your statement. 

Now that I went back and, actually, read the post. Yes, he most definitely gets a SOG.

Everyone, Please disregard my posts on this portion of the topic.

I promise I'll, try, and read the entire post prior to replying.

Regards

 

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