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taper crimp 38 special


jb books

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First time posting but longtime reader i have never used a taper crimp on 38 special till now. I am using a lyman taper crimp die for 38 and mixed brass 125 grn blue bullets no crimp groove or cannelure and my crimps sometimes dont feel like they got enough crimp while some feel good very inconsistent. I checked the overall case case length on 50 cases and they are all within about.005 of each other. Also is roll crimping an option with this type of bullet or stick with the taper die. Seeing what everyone thinks I have shot the bullets and getting good accuracy but not sure about crimp.

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Most folks will roll crimp those.  The crimp will dig into the side of a lead bullet if no crimp groove.  I would be worried about taper crimped bullets collapsing into the case under spring pressure and/or recoil in a rifle.  Holding one of those rounds in your fingers, push the bullet end hard against a table or solid object to make sure the bullet doesn't sink deeper.

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41 minutes ago, jb books said:

First time posting but longtime reader i have never used a taper crimp on 38 special till now. I am using a lyman taper crimp die for 38 and mixed brass 125 grn blue bullets no crimp groove or cannelure and my crimps sometimes dont feel like they got enough crimp while some feel good very inconsistent. I checked the overall case case length on 50 cases and they are all within about.005 of each other. Also is roll crimping an option with this type of bullet or stick with the taper die. Seeing what everyone thinks I have shot the bullets and getting good accuracy but not sure about crimp.

I have done that with that type of bullets from Dillon and found that Remington (RP head stamp) brass is thin walled, so the sizer does not create as small an inner diameter to grip the bullet. There may be other head stamps with the same issue. I would start by sorting and segregating head stamps and then measuring for an average case wall thickness or sized inner diameter. Thicker wall is better, smaller inner diameter is better.

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Several years ago I got a Redding Profile crimp die and have never looked back. The only time since the switch I had a bullet push back into the case was because I missed a split case when loading. I now check before I clean and after they are clean for splits.

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I'm guessing a round nose lead bullet, no crimp groove. I've dealt with those by seating those a bit deeper, where the exposed nose STARTS to taper to smaller diameter, and put on a gentle roll crimp that just meets the lead. Taper might also work if done in this fashion.  I had taken to minimizing the uneven brass lengths by using all one headstamp with REALLY improved things a great deal- had  a 5 gallon bucket of WW cases that saved me much trouble - very consistent lengths and case thickness.

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Roll crimp them. Been crimping cast lead bullets outside the crimp groove for 7 years with nary an issue. As others have pointed out a taper crimp will allow the bullet to push back into the case under spring pressure. 

 

 

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I've used a taper crimp on .38's for the last 12 to 15 years for CAS shooting and have been participating in CAS for over 24 years. I load both the 158gr RNFP with crimp groove and 122gr without crimp groove. I've NEVER had a round recess into the case. I've even tried hitting rounds back into the case (no primer of course) with a hammer, lightly at first but with increasing force. THe only thing that happened was that the case was destroyed eventually....round didn't move though. I've tried pulling bullets also just to make sure that the round was sufficiently seated tight enough to allow proper pressure build up. The taper crimp rounds seemed harder to pull that roll crimp rounds.

 

I know that most people will poo poo the idea of using a taper crimp on .38 CAS loads, I've NEVER had a problem of any kind caused by the taper crimp. Up until recently, I shot at least three matches a month, year round....that's a bunch of rounds fired without any problem whatsoever.

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I just recently started loading my 125 TC  38's to 1.48 (outside the crimp groove) and tried some of Scarlett's 105's without a crimp groove. I didn't like the looks of the crimp so I tightened to a much more noticeable crimp (roll crimp). I shot a match last weekend and they worked fine.

 

Randy

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A firm enough crimp (either taper or roll) to prevent bullet collapsing into the case will be good enough.   If you have problems getting the powder to burn well, it's usually better to switch to a faster burn rate powder, rather than try to fix it with some sort of "super tight crimp".    With a lot of crimp, you can deform the bullet enough to effect accuracy.

 

A taper crimp is easier to slap on without being really careful where the case mouth ends up.  A roll crimp that runs into a bullet band rather than going into the crimp groove (or other groove on the bullet) will often bulge the case just below the crimp, and can prevent a round from chambering, or require you to take special step to iron out the bulge. 

 

Use what works for you.  Either will work if you try hard enough.  The finest precision of handgun cartridge loading is not needed to win even the World Championship at EOT.

 

good luck, GJ

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I roll crimp with the Lee FCD and have not looked back. Even if I have a crimp groove, the crimp may not be in the groove depending on the firearm it's for.

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14 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Roll crimp them. Been crimping cast lead bullets outside the crimp groove for 7 years with nary an issue. As others have pointed out a taper crimp will allow the bullet to push back into the case under spring pressure. 

 

 

The problem arises with jacketed or plated bullets.

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13 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

I've used a taper crimp on .38's for the last 12 to 15 years for CAS shooting and have been participating in CAS for over 24 years. I load both the 158gr RNFP with crimp groove and 122gr without crimp groove. I've NEVER had a round recess into the case. I've even tried hitting rounds back into the case (no primer of course) with a hammer, lightly at first but with increasing force. THe only thing that happened was that the case was destroyed eventually....round didn't move though. I've tried pulling bullets also just to make sure that the round was sufficiently seated tight enough to allow proper pressure build up. The taper crimp rounds seemed harder to pull that roll crimp rounds.

 

I know that most people will poo poo the idea of using a taper crimp on .38 CAS loads, I've NEVER had a problem of any kind caused by the taper crimp. Up until recently, I shot at least three matches a month, year round....that's a bunch of rounds fired without any problem whatsoever.

Did you ever try that with RP brass?

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16 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

Did you ever try that with RP brass?

 

Yes, I am not particular about brass and have reloaded just about every headstamp out there, although I toss S & B and Amerc. RP brass probably constitutes about 5%+ of my reloaded rounds. Never had any problem.

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11 hours ago, jb books said:

I really appreciate all the great advice  i think i will have a roll crimp vs taper crimp shootout and see who wins and go with that. 

 

P

Factory ammo is roll crimped.

Roll crimp 'holds' better.

OLG 

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2 hours ago, jb books said:

I tried taper vs roll crimp today and could not tell a difference I will do some more testing Monday. 

Then you don't have the roll crimp die adjusted correctly. 

The case mouth should be turned into the bullet.

OLG 

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I meant I couldn't tell a difference in accuracy between the roll crimp vs taper I was worried the slight crimp ring from roll crimp in the lead would hurt accuracy but doesn't seem to be.. will test some more on monday

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I have only reloaded Bullets with crimp groove or cannelure in 38/357 never with a smooth side I am using blue bullets 125 grn rn coated similar appearance to a rn 9 mm now noticed that acme has changed bullet style in 125 grn fp to a smooth side. I am probably way over thinking this I like my lee fcd in 38 and not a fan of this Lyman taper die I bought but if that's what I have to use with smooth sided bullets so be it.

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1 minute ago, jb books said:

I have only reloaded Bullets with crimp groove or cannelure in 38/357 never with a smooth side I am using blue bullets 125 grn rn coated similar appearance to a rn 9 mm now noticed that acme has changed bullet style in 125 grn fp to a smooth side. I am probably way over thinking this I like my lee fcd in 38 and not a fan of this Lyman taper die I bought but if that's what I have to use with smooth sided bullets so be it.

If you have enough tension in the case, the crimp may not make any difference in cowboy guns and cowboy load levels. What you would have to watch for is variance in the brass, so again I would urge sorting brass and rechecking bullet retention with any change in head stamp. Lead will allow taking on a roll crimp regardless, but there are jacketed or plated bullets which should not be damaged by a significant roll crimp.

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Depends upon how hard the lead alloy is.   Most commercial cast bullets are cast from 6-2 (hardball) alloy (6 % antimony), which is about 16 Brinell Hardness number.  That can be hard to turn a rolled crimp into a band (what you are calling a smooth side) on a bullet with most roll crimp dies   The case can't easily push into that hard a bullet.   So, that is one reason to use a taper crimp die - you get as much bite on the bullet as you can, but you don't bulge the case from the resistance of trying to roll the case mouth into the lead.

 

That hard an alloy is NEVER NEEDED for cowboy shooting, where chamber pressures rarely go over about 12,000.   

 

My preference is a softer bullet (about 9 Brinell), then I can crimp easily with either style and not even need a Lee Factory Crimp Die.   For those cartridges that really need such a "crimp and fix bulges that might be produced"  (like the .44-40), I use the Redding Profile Crimp die, which is, by my testing, able make a much tighter crimp than the Lee FCD can be adjusted to do.  The Lee starts putting that "band" at top of case which adds nothing to the strength of the crimp when adjusted over-tight.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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While a taper crimp can be used on the .38 Special, I'd avoid it if possible in favor of the roll crimp.  I have used the Lee Factory crimp die on mine for years and crimping in the groove or the smooth part of the bullet works every time.  I have loaded 10's of thousands of .38 Specials to use in my cowboy guns and have never had a single one push back into the case.  Good luck and good shooting to all.  

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On 12/3/2021 at 10:46 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Depends upon how hard the lead alloy is.   Most commercial cast bullets are cast from 6-2 (hardball) alloy (6 % antimony), which is about 16 Brinell Hardness number.  That can be hard to turn a rolled crimp into a band (what you are calling a smooth side) on a bullet with most roll crimp dies   The case can't easily push into that hard a bullet.   So, that is one reason to use a taper crimp die - you get as much bite on the bullet as you can, but you don't bulge the case from the resistance of trying to roll the case mouth into the lead.

 

That hard an alloy is NEVER NEEDED for cowboy shooting, where chamber pressures rarely go over about 12,000.   

 

My preference is a softer bullet (about 9 Brinell), then I can crimp easily with either style and not even need a Lee Factory Crimp Die.   For those cartridges that really need such a "crimp and fix bulges that might be produced"  (like the .44-40), I use the Redding Profile Crimp die, which is, by my testing, able make a much tighter crimp than the Lee FCD can be adjusted to do.  The Lee starts putting that "band" at top of case which adds nothing to the strength of the crimp when adjusted over-tight.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Acme/Scarlett bullets are described as Brinell 16, and those loading extended length 38 Special in my area don't seem to be complaining about bullets that are too hard to take a crimp outside the crimp groove. 

Acme Bullet website says:
"Our premium reloading cast bullets are made with certified 92-6-2 lead for a Brinell Hardness (BHN) of 16."

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It's mainly just a preference.  Like you, I certainly did not see any accuracy difference at SASS distances.

 

good luck, GJ

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A little more work done to the brass, yes.  As brass is bent, it work hardens and gets a little more brittle.  Bend it more, more work hardening.

 

Enough to break the bank between being able to shoot due to buying more brass?   Not.

 

good luck, GJ

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