Using lubricated wool wads in brass cartridges

[Boonie Young]

Hi All.

Just getting into shooting bp and I have a newbie's question. I plan on shooting cap and ball pistols, have a pair of Pieta 1858s and planning on using wool wads in them. For the rifle I'm planning on either using a 66/73 in 45C or a 66/73 in 44/40 (if I can find one). What is y'all's thoughts on using lubricated wool wads in either a 45C or 44/40 case? I'm thinking about using 20gn of bp, covered by 15-20gn of ground walnut shells (or similar) followed by a lubricated wad and topped with a 200gn rnfp. I know that I will need to adjust the amount of walnut shells based on the thickness of the wads. Any suggestions or comments would be welcomed. Thanks in advance.

 

Boonie Young

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Not and expert by far on BP loading, but I'd stay away from an abrasive like walnut shells.

Some like cream o wheat or similar. Since I'm in the South now, I've downloaded some .45-90s with grits. Finally found a use for 'em. Lol

[Boonie Young]

Thanks for the info. I never thought about that. I shoot with one bp cowpoke who uses walnuts to top his loads with.

Hmmm, just thinking about using cream o wheat, grits and substituting bacon grease for my crisco. Got my mouth to watering. Lol

[Tequila Shooter]

Skip the wads and use Big Lube Bullets, they’ve got the lube already on’em.   Faster to load, easier to use, and they provide plenty of lube. Here’s a link of where to get them. Whyte Leatherworks, you have to call to place an order.  Why are you trying to cut down on the powder?  I don’t think you’re going to see a big difference with recoil in a rifle, remember it’s BP not smokeless the pressure curve is different.  

[Jackalope]

I've been shooting real BP exclusively for more years than I can easily count and offer these thoughts.

 

1.  A 44-40 or 45 Colt cartridge, loaded with 20 grains BP, 20 grains crushed walnut shell filler, and a 200 grain bullet seated to a normal length will leave very little room for a lube wad.

 

2.  A bullet with a big grease groove filled with BP compatible lube will be much easier than fooling with a lube wad.

 

3.  A bullet with a small grease groove filled with BP compatible lube will be much easier than fooling with a lube wad but may need more attention between stages.

 

4.  I've been using crushed walnut shells as filler for 12 or so years with no ill effects.  Not having been raised in the south, I still have not found a use for grits.  

 

This has given me good results with real black powder.  I can't speak to results with BP substitutes, which I find only slightly more useful than grits.

 

 

Your mileage may vary, good luck!

 

Jackalope

[Palmetto Traveller]

As a native son of the South using grits as a filler is heresy. Grits are for eatin'.

Now cream of wheat has no culinary value what so ever so as a filler they're perfect. NOBODY ever went into a restaurant and ordered shrimp and cream of wheat. 

[Bison Bud]

While I can see the need for a grease cookie with some bullets (those not able to carry enough lube), proper BP loads have a full case of powder and use a bit of compression when seating the bullet.  Both the .45 Colt and the 44/40 were originally BP cartridges and why someone would need to download them by using a filler is beyond me.  Maybe using a filler in some of the larger rifle cartridges may be worth the effort, but I have to doubt the advantage of using a filler in a pistol cartridge.  I guess your trying to cut down on smoke, but that's just part of the fun in my eyes.  Why make something so simple into something so convoluted in the first place?  

[Singin' Sue 71615]

Buckshot Sheridan??

Are you sleeping???

Hmmmmmmm....he uses brass shells exclusively, sure he will speak up.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

A filler is used in BP in SASS for folks who want to reduce recoil.  To be more competitive.  We sure see a lot of that with smokeless.  So, yes,  some folks like to be competitive when shooting BP, too.

 

Your C&B pistols can be loaded with just BP, because you can seat the ball down lower in the chamber to sit on top of the powder.  THAT is where a lube cookie or a lubed felt wad may suit your need for lubrication and sealing the front of the chamber from flash overs.  Piettas in .44 caliber usually work well with a .454" ball, soft lead.   Many folks find the Colt designs (1851s and 1860s) are much easier to keep running in matches than the Remington 1858 design.  

 

A filler for BP rifle cartridges that is VERY compatible with the charge, does not consolidate into solid chunk as the cartridge is stored, which raises pressures (like most cereal products that can absorb moisture from the air), and adds no smells -

 

Fine Activated Charcoal

 

It's already in BP - one of the three components.  It's been fired down gun barrels for centuries.   It's been prepared so it does not contain sand and other grit.   It meters well in powder measures.   30 or 40 mesh fine granulation feeds into cases without blocking.   Often sold as water filter media.  Not as cheap as some of the other fillers, but certainly less expensive than the full charge of BP.

 

Another filler - foam caulking backer rod that is just under the inside diameter of the case.   Capt. George Baylor has been using that for years with good success.  Cut to length and stuff before adding slug.

 

Here's some good reading from him about BP and Subs basics if you have not found it yet:

 

https://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Tyrel Cody]

1 hour ago, Jackalope said:

Not having been raised in the south, I still have not found a use for grits.  

 

 

 

Southern born and raised and I haven't found a use for grits.

 

 

 

All I can add is that if you don't have big grease groove bullets then 25gr of real BP,  10gr or so of lizard litter(crushed walnuts) and a dab of unsalted lard is all you need in a .44WCF or .44 cas; well a bullet helps.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Played around with fillers and lard etc.  Pain in the behind.  Go with the Big Lube bullets and save yourself some grief.  Worried about recoil, just seat them bullets a little deeper to take up space.  

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I frequently shoot cap and ball revolvers and use lubricated felt wads in very hot weather. In milder weather I use vegetable shortening over top of the lead balls - it's cheaper.  However, the shortening gets runny in very hot weather and will not stay in place.  I use cream of wheat as a filler.  Caution: pack the powder charge tightly so the filler does not mix with the powder.  Some grains of cereal next to a flash hole will prevent ignition.

 

As GJ posted, excessive smoke and recoil is not competitive.

 

I don't know if you have have acquired black powder yet.  Real black powder is hard to buy after the recent closing of Goex.  Subs are still available and legal for SASS BP categories.  I have loaded Triple Seven and APP into brass cartridges with good results.  These subs don't require special BP lubes.  I tried Shooters World BP substitute in shotgun shells and liked the results.  When shooting 44 mags I use foam backer rods as fillers.  My arthritic hands don't like big bore cases fully charged with black powder or subs.  I prefer real black powder for cap and ball revolvers due to its ease of ignition.

 

Welcome to the Darkside.  There are many approaches to making SASS-legal ammunition.  You will spend more to load ammo as powder charges are much larger than when loading smokeless powder.  You will also contend with hydroscopic ammo if you load with the subs (a reason to use real black powder if you can find it).  You also need to learn how the clean and lubricate your firearms for black powder.  The Duelist54 channel on YouTube contains many useful videos.

 

Added info: some BP shooters pack the front of their revolver cylinders with a BP lube and shoot ammo loaded with real black powder and ordinary hard-lubes bullets.  I was given a tin of black powder muzzleloader lube and tried this.  I found that placing the lube in just one hole of a cylinder each stage kept my revolvers running reliably.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I found using "wads" in Brass Cartridges to be a Royal PITA.  Much mush better to source "Big Lube" bullets and be happy.  To make a lighter load, I have had marvelous luck with Cream-0-Wheat.

 

OR:  None of the above.  I now shoot APP exclusively.  NO lube of any kind required.  So so much simpler and super easy clean up.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Good advice.  Do not use prelubed wads in you BP shotgun reloads. I used some and had a lot of problems with duds. When the weather warms up and your shells warm up too, the lube melts and saturates the powder and the shell won't go bang. 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Big Lube 44/40, FFG for filler. No lube for shotgun needed. Good Luck

[Sedalia Dave]

If you are going to shoot BP full time definitely get a 44-40. There were a few for sale here on the wire not long ago. The problem right now is brass. Starline is having issues obtaining raw materials so the availability of cases is suffering.

[Tequila Shooter]

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

If you are going to shoot BP full time definitely get a 44-40. There were a few for sale here on the wire not long ago. The problem right now is brass. Starline is having issues obtaining raw materials so the availability of cases is suffering.

 

^^ THIS ^^. Plus if you’re going to use .45C learn to anneal, making the end of the case a little softer allows it to expand enough to cut down on blow back. 

[Wallaby Damned]

45LC is a fun round to shoot BP in, but as noted and due to the nature of the case, it’s a really dirty cartridge. As to loading, I’ve never had need for filler. I’ve found that grease “cookies” can melt into your BP load in hotter temps, and will result in hang fires and misfires. It’ll also trash cases as a melted grease cookie load will be a real pain to clean out.  A properly lubed (I use SPG/beeswax) bullet is all you need. I’ve been using FFFg in my 45 for 20 years now and Fg in my 12. No fillers needed in the 12 either. 

[Griff]

Been shooting BP in CAS since 1986... in a 1986 production '73 in 45 Colt.   I've used 2F, 3F, fillers, lubed wads, slick card wads and a grease cookie and found that none of foregoing had any significance impact on reliability or accuracy at CAS distances and velocities.  I quit worrying about fillers a LONG time ago.  But, hey, if you like needlessly complicating the loading process... more power to ya!  I'm now using APP.  My loads for at least the previous 15 years were about 25-28 grains of BP, until I started using APP, were of Goex "Cartridge".  I cast a bullet of WWs in an RCBS mold, 45-225-CAS.  Carries enough lube to keep fouling soft thru the 24-¼" barrel of the '73.  Now with APP, I'm using a store-bought 200 grain RFN.

 

I don't anneal my cases, after my 1st few months of shooting this 45 Colt '73, I found that shaving a bit off each side of the carrier so that there was plenty of room for the accumulated fouling to not drag on the carrier was far more effective and has zero effect on performance.  I have 2 other toggle links and simply sanded down about .010" off each side and they also run fine for a 3-day 12 stage match without cleaning.

 

Skinnin' cats ought not be complicated... 

[Navy Six]

I was recently sighting in a newly acquired Colt SAA in 45 Colt. I made up a bunch of different blackpowder bullet/powder/filler combinations. Accuracy was really bad with the one load that I included a wool(unlubricated) felt wad. That was only one pistol, of course, but I don't think I'll be trying wool wads in a cartridge case again any time soon.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

I also shoot Real Black Powder in my 44WCF. I shoot 15 grs of Goex 3F. Then i use Corn Meal as a Filler. 

On top of Corn Meal i put a wad made out of Primer Boxes, Cereal Boxes. Then a 200 Gr RCBS Bullet with SPG Libe.

With the cost of powder, there is no shame in using a reduced load. 

Using the cheapest Corn Meal you can find. Just about any store carries it. No shipping cost involved . No waiting, pay and walk out.It packs nice in Cartridge when you seat the Bullet.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

I use Cream of Wheat as a filler in my big-bore black powder cartridge rifles, IF I want to reduce the black powder charge, and shoot a lighter load.

Sometimes I may not want to load up my 50-90 to the max. I might want to load it to, say, more of a 50-70 load, if I am just plinking.

But I choose to use a filler, to shoot a lighter load while plinking. I never worry about recoil, and don't consider recoil when using a filler. 

That's just me. 

 

Otherwise, I do not use a filler, if I want to shoot a "full load".

 

The base of the bullet compresses the black powder, which is what you need, and instead of a filler, I just fill 'er up with black powder.

 

I do use a pre-lubed wad in my cap & ball revolvers, instead of smearing the end of the loaded cylinder with lube. Even then, once-in-a-while, I will use both the lubed wad, and also smear the end of the loaded cylinder with lube. 

 

Remember: when using lubes, make sure you do NOT use petroleum based lubes. Never do that. Don't dddoooooooo that!!!

 

Of course when I build my load for my percussion 12 gauge shotgun, I use wads:...over powder wad, cushion wad, a homemade paper shot cup, and an over shot wad, or disk. But I would not use any filler in my shotgun, and I think, I hope, we know that. 

 

I never use a filler when reloading a .38 W.C.F. cartridge, or a .44 W.C.F. cartridge, or a .45 Colt cartridge, or any revolver cartridge, for that matter.

I put the bullet though my lubri-sizer, and the lube is on the grease grooves of the bullet, and I load 'er up. I see no need for a filler for a revolver cartridge, unless one simply wants to use one, or one wants to try to have the recoil reduced for some reason.

 

So far, in this country, we are still free to use a filler, or not...so the choice is yours.  

 

But, we all have our own preferred methods of reloading, based on what we believe is the right way...which again, is based on our own experiences. 

 

If (if) I use a filler, it would be Cream of Wheat, and only in my big-bore blackpowder cartridge rifles. 

 

My Two Bits.

W.K. 

 

 

 

[Boonie Young]

I'd like to say thanks to all the Pards that took the time to share their know how. Not certain what or how I'm gonna load yet, a lot of info to digest. Thanks again everyone.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I tried fillers for the rifle 44-40. Too much hassle. I went with an almost full case of 2F GOEX. For our shooting no need to use 3F.

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

I read of a guy using Rice Krispies for a filler....Snap, Crackle, and Pop.

[Pee Wee #15785]

For my hands, that have bad Arthritis, if I shoot my .44WCF rifle rounds in my pistols I hurt to much.  I have to down load to about 18 gr of black so I use grits as filler.  I load black, filler, felt lubed wad, card stock, and what ever bullet with black lube.  My normal pistols are 1851 Navies with 18 gr black, felt wad, and ball.  I have been shooting black for 65 years and (knocking on wood) never had a round not go bing on first hammer hit.  Never a chain fire with C&B.

[Turkey Flats Jack]

With cap guns I've always used a lubed felt wad. Generally a wonder wad. A dap of lube over the 1st and last ball helps keep the fouling soft. Lube on all of them makes it a bit messy. 

 

Cartridges: 45 colt I used a dry wad and a grease cookie on top of the wad to help keep from contaminating the powder. I make the grease cookie thick enough to fill any airspace in the case when making a reduced load. 44wcf there's no need for a grease cookie or extra lube imo. Volume of powder that you want and filler to eliminate any airspace between the powder and base of the bullet. 

 

Fillers: there's lots of options most of them work just fine. I have a lifetime supply of free crushed walnut so that's what I've used the most. 

 

Powder type/size: I haven't found much use for substitutes. I don't care for them and they tend to be harder on your irons than the real thing. On the occasion that I've had substitutes in my possession I've only used it in shot shells. 

Now keep in mind that the sass minimum is 1cc/15 grains of 2f by volume to be compliant with smoke factor. If you're loading for minimum recoil or even to conserve powder the bare minimum is not always the best solution depending on what granulation you're using. I prefer using 1.5fg like goex cartridge powder. But you have to use a hair more of that to meet the same smoke factor as 2f. The opposite goes for 3f. You can get by with a touch less and still meet minimum smoke. Keep in mind this is based on my opinion and I'm not here to argue the point with anyone. I like to use 18-20gr of 1.5fg and filler with a 200gr rnfp in my 44-40 ammo. Imo the recoil is the same as 15gr of 2f and a little extra flames and smoke. Do a ladder test and see what works best for you and your guns. 

Best of luck and welcome to the dark side 

[Boomstick Bruce]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:33 AM, Boonie Young said:

Thanks for the info. I never thought about that. I shoot with one bp cowpoke who uses walnuts to top his loads with.

Hmmm, just thinking about using cream o wheat, grits and substituting bacon grease for my crisco. Got my mouth to watering. Lol

 

DO NOT USE BACON GREASE!!!

 

Way too salty. It will rust the gun faster than wet pyrodex! (dont ask how i know)

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I shoot 44wcf...I do load a full case for my rifle. I tried using fiber wads as a filler worked very well and do not make a mess if you spill them on your bench as would grits or cream of wheat. For my ROA's I load about 25gr of Goex 3f and use a lubed wad over the powder then seat the ball. Wads are from Circlefly. They have both lubed and unlubed and also carry wads for shot gun loading. Sadly due to the Goex debacle will have to switch to APP.

 

Hochbauer