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Accomodation vs. advantage?


Creeker, SASS #43022

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I responded on another thread regarding a reshaping of a stock to accomodate a shooters medical need.

 

My response said something to the affect of "We should always accomodate for medical needs AND the accomodation would provide no competitive advantage"

 

That got me thinking - "What IF?"

 

What if a shooter with an actual needed accomodation (not a faker, game player or liar) beats you (or just places well within their category)?

AND the accomodation "could" be looked at as a competitive advantage?

Would you judge their placement or performance differently?

 

For example - a shooter (because of a known medical issue; again not a faker, game player or liar) is allowed to wear athletic shoes as their footwear.

They do very well.

But, the match was heavy on movement and foot speed was a major component OR the weather came up and athletic shoe traction was an obvious plus - is the shooter with accomodations (which could have been to his benefit) looked at differently?

 

This is COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL.

This has not occurred nor am I referring to any shooter or any match.

 

I am actually asking out of sincere personal curiosity.

As some of you know - I broke my arms (yes, plural) a few months back - in addition, I severely damaged both of my wrists which have not healed/ recovered properly (visiting the orthopedic on Monday to discuss options).

 

I am currently working with both soft wrist wraps and fiberglass splinted braces to find a method that supports my wrists well enough to safely (at this point, lift, but hopefully soon to) use my guns.

 

I don't foresee being a threat to anyone any time soon. 

 

But when I do return and as I attempt to regain my footing - I imagine my wrists will be and remain supported in some manner.

 

A supported, artificially strengthened wrist could be a benefit to a Duelist or in my case, Gunfighter.

Again, don't forsee being a threat for a while - but I don't forsee losing the braces for a while either.

 

Lets imagine (huge flight of fancy) that I am still in a wrap or brace by the Nationals next year AND I somehow shoot well enough to TOP 10 my category (not win - even my imagination has bounds).

 

Would you look at a performance differently?

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If you need a wrist wrap in order to shoot safely, then so be it. If you win with the wrist wrap, you would have probably won if your wrist had been OK in the first place. I don't see that as an issue. Same with shoes. I've never been beat by a pair of shoes yet. Personal accommodations in order to supply a person a NEEDED means to participate is generally a good thing. However, IMO the level of accommodations will/should be considered when and where it is provided. In some cases it matters more than others. Something might matter at a Sanctioned match but not matter at a local monthly match. Example. Joe has just driven across the country to shoot the State match. He got out of the car and stepped in a hole and hurt his leg so badly that he can barely walk. I'm the MD for the State match.  Joe comes to me and ask if he can shoot the match without the need to move through the stages where possible. I say "Sure thing Joe, but you will not be allowed to place unless you shoot the same match as everyone else does". If Joe agrees, then off we go, if not, then Joe will be watching the match. If it were our small monthly match it just wouldn't matter.   

 

Snakebite

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As snakebite said, if you placed with the accommodations you likely would have placed without them. I’d have zero problem with it. And if you beat me, I’d be first to congratulate you. 
 

In SB’s second scenario, all persons would have to shoot same match to win. I wouldn’t allow shooter to shoot without moving because he had a bum leg. 
 

if gamer/lier/cheater wants to fake an injury to gain a competitive advantage shame on him. And yes I know a guy who claims bad feet to avoid posse duties. One of the very few I’d rather not shoot with. 

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I can't see any type of wrist braces (or the like) being a competitive advantage, except, possibly for a high accuracy related sport.

 

As already said, if you beat me at a match wearing braces, you'd have beaten me at the same match without them if not for your handicap.

 

Get well soon,

Possum

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Wow, JEDI Creeker.

 

You must have seen me shoot using my wrist support a couple years back.

 

By the time I was 11, I had broken my left wrist TWICE..... right in the same place.

Real breaks.  Bones totally dislodged and one piece angled downward, the other pieces angled up on top of it.

 

Forward to CAS evens, shooting GF and the '97.   

There are times when I HAVE to use a wrist brace in order to help hold my left pistol.... and particularly when I running

my '97.

I can't say that it gives me any advantage but without the brace, I wouldn't be able to compete without some discomfort.

BUT..... the brace does help me be competitive,  but no more so than my normal abilities.

 

In my opinion, any kind of handicap 'help' that a person might have can not exceed their regular performances.

And if anything..... wearing a wrist brace or other helpful item, can actually hinder a shooters performance unless

they wear it all the time and get use to it.  

 

..........Widder

 

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Much of this is judgemental and can become a slippery slope fairly easily; which is why I asked the original gunstock modification question.  The responses I received were correct, to my view.   If you need an accommodation, you should not try to judge for yourself, but you should work with Match Directors or with SASS to get approval or limited approval BEFORE you shoot a match or make a questionable modification to your guns or other gear.

 Judgements will vary between people, and even across match officials.  We need to accept the decisions, realizing that nobody wants to exclude anybody from enjoying our sport.  

 

For example, would you approve use of a red-dot sight or other sight "accommodation" for a shooter with permanent far vision impairment, who isn't comfortable wearing prescription lenses?  Probably not, but imagine for a minute that you wanted to give it consideration.  How "impaired" and how verified would you want the need to be.  Different people view their own limitations differently.   Would you allow the modified sights, or decline it and just encourage the person to get prescription glasses like everybody else? 

 

The same with footwear.  How much pain would you expect the shooter to put up with, and how could you know what they experience, in considering alternative footwear? A shooter with a lower leg prosthesis who could not wear a "boot" is an obvious decision.  But the pain issue is less obvious and requires careful judgment.  

  

Accommodation is a thing that most of us are proud to offer.  We will take great effort to modify our shooting bays and props however needed, because the changes only serve to level the field.   But IMO, when requests embark onto an obvious slippery slope between accommodation and advantage, that is when it is proper to engage match officials in advance.   Our matches need to include accommodations to enable everyone to play.   But matches also must remain equitable.  And to the extent practicable, "equitable" needs to mean "equitable".  

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I firmly believe that if you need the accommodation to shoot, especially while recovering from an injury that is a all-around good thing.  If you do well enough to place, show or even win, with the accommodation, then you'd probably have done even better prior to the injury or needing the accommodation.  Fini. End of discussion.  Disagreement entitles you to the label asshat.  IMNSHO.

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5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Wow, JEDI Creeker.

 

You must have seen me shoot using my wrist support a couple years back.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, 

I was unaware of your wrist issue and brace use (if I had known - I would called you and asked your experiences).

 

If this felt as if I were casting aspersions or in anyway insulting - I am sincerely and deeply sorry.

 

I was framing this around myself and my hoped for return to competitiveness.

While admitting that wrist wraps and braces are probably a long term addition to my life.

 

I apologize if anyone took my words in any other way.

 

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In 2006 I had about a 20' fall. I landed upright, on my feet. As I laid there staring at the bottoms of my feet I lit a smoke and thought 'This is really gonna SUCK in a minute.' They were going to do an emergency double amputation but my wife wouldn't let them. Love ya hon! I was told I would never walk again. Every bone, tendon and joint below both knees were shattered. Took a year and more than a few tears but here I am. 

Short story long.... I sometimes wear tennis type shoes because of the pain. I'll wear my cowboy boots because, by God, cowboys wear boots! But.... Sometimes when I feel I'm going to throw up due to pain I'll change my footwear. Nobody even jokes about it because they know. As a matter of fact, the first time I ever met Lassiter he questioned my footwear. It was right after I threw my walker in the brush. A couple pards explained things. Now when I see Tom he asks how I'm feeling. Great guy. 

In a nutshell I wouldn't even go to a match most months if I knew I couldn't wear shoes if needed. It's not often but the option keeps me viable. I've heard a murmur or two after shooting a good stage about my shoes but they get shut down fairly quick. 

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6 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said:

In 2006 I had about a 20' fall. I landed upright, on my feet. As I laid there staring at the bottoms of my feet I lit a smoke and thought 'This is really gonna SUCK in a minute.' They were going to do an emergency double amputation but my wife wouldn't let them. Love ya hon! I was told I would never walk again. Every bone, tendon and joint below both knees were shattered. Took a year and more than a few tears but here I am. 

Short story long.... I sometimes wear tennis type shoes because of the pain. I'll wear my cowboy boots because, by God, cowboys wear boots! But.... Sometimes when I feel I'm going to throw up due to pain I'll change my footwear. Nobody even jokes about it because they know. As a matter of fact, the first time I ever met Lassiter he questioned my footwear. It was right after I threw my walker in the brush. A couple pards explained things. Now when I see Tom he asks how I'm feeling. Great guy. 

In a nutshell I wouldn't even go to a match most months if I knew I couldn't wear shoes if needed. It's not often but the option keeps me viable. I've heard a murmur or two after shooting a good stage about my shoes but they get shut down fairly quick. 

Yours is one of the obvious cases.  Reasonable, knowing people would never disagree. 

(Amazing story!)

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Howdy again, Creeker.

Naw, I didn't take anything personal or insulting, etc.....  Being an acquaintance of TN Williams (notice I didn't say friend),

nothing insults or bothers me.... :lol:

 

You are correct in that Lassiter is a great guy.  And he is a good friend.

 

I had not known about your leg injuries, but any accommodations you might need should be granted.   Sure hope

things stay well with you.

And of course, I hope Creeker's wrist and arms continue to heal well and he is able to shoot more, even with help from

his braces, etc.....

Even a feller with Bionics will sometimes need recalibration..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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Throwing up from pain is a horrible experience - you already hurt so badly that all you want to do is curl up in a ball.

AND THEN - you get to violently wrack every fiber in your being vomiting.

 

And worse, afterwards you are the vilest combination shade of green, pale and broken blood vessels - and that color doesn't look good on anybody.

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3 hours ago, Snakebite said:

MS... You can shoot in 4" spiked pumps if you makes you feel better, but ABSOLUTLY no Garter straps! :ph34r:

Dang Snakebite! I'm gonna hafta clean all the Sprite off my screen and keyboard now.  I was OK with the spiked pumps but had to spew my drink after I saw the garter straps in your post! :lol:

 

Kajun

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If a shooter needs to do something for medical reasons and it let's them still enjoy our sport/hobby/obsession I am all for it.

 

And if they beat me, NOT A PROBLEM AT ALL.  

 

as other's have said above ▲ this is a fun sport

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Other (action type) shooting sports actually have rules and procedures in place for when an accommodation IS an advantage.   The MD is required (with the wisdom of Solomon required if you ask me) to adjudicate just what approximate % advantage the shooter has received... and up to a maximum of 20% of the points shot on that stage are deducted....  Some similar idea COULD be instituted in CAS I suppose... personally I'd rather just keep things the way they are.  trust people to only ask for what they NEED.... and let them play as best they can. 

 

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"...What if a shooter with an actual needed accomodation (not a faker, game player or liar) beats you (or just places well within their category)?

AND the accomodation "could" be looked at as a competitive advantage?

Would you judge their placement or performance differently?...."

 

NO , and NO , i would be happy for their success , its not just winning to me , i want everyone to participate , enjoy and succeed if possible , 

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There have been times that I’ve been “curious” as to why some

competitors are wearing non-cowboy footwear. I assume (or know) the cowboy/girl and know what his/her issue is and move on. 
 

For me, the KEY component with ANY accommodation is that it’s, of course, legitimate and SAFE.  As mentioned earlier - the red dot example. If you can’t see and won’t wear contacts, you needn’t be asking for a red dot you ought to be asked to go home. I’m not being mean or grumpy but that’s simply not safe - on the road or at the range. 
 

BIG HUGS!

Scarlett

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Anyone that’s shot with me knows that a blind, one armed, one legged cowboy/cowgirl could out shoot me, speed is not my thing.  I realize that we all are in this sport with different definitions of fun, a friend of mine told me that their version is to go as fast as possible and win, ok I get it.  Does their version affect my version, no, I’m happy to see them do well and cheer them on when they achieve their goal.  Also, I shoot with someone that’s on oxygen, has a motorized cart to get from stage to stage and seldom helps with posse duties, another that needs help getting on and off the stage (so we carry and stage their guns).  Are they competitive with regard to time with the top shooters, well no, but they’re still wearing a smile at the end of the day, what more can you ask for. That said, if any Cowboy/Cowgirl needs an accommodation to shoot safely it should be considered.  One caveat to my way of thinking are the shooters, and yes I said shooters because they aren’t displaying the “Cowboy Spirit”, that claim a need for special consideration to try to gain an unfair advantage.  Winners don’t cheat.  

 

Creeker, Widder, Michigan Slim, and anyone else that have a need for brace, a shoe, or a helping hand then I say be safe, have fun and shoot.  If I beat you well then your really slow and if you are faster than me congrats and I’m glad to have you come out and be on my posse. 

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With a nickname like Widderborg anything goes.:P  I compete against myself and have fun at every match. I learn every time I shoot especially when I have problems. I wish I had started cowboy shooting a long time ago. 

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8 hours ago, Mister Badly said:

With a nickname like Widderborg anything goes.:P  I compete against myself and have fun at every match. I learn every time I shoot especially when I have problems. I wish I had started cowboy shooting a long time ago. 

Sorry Widder, I just can’t help myself. Widder’s secret to shooting so fast is that he lubes his special “borg” parts with his secret lube. If he’s feeling especially frisky and ole TW is shooting with him he breaks out the crunchy stuff! :P

 

Kajun

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5 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Sorry Widder, I just can’t help myself. Widder’s secret to shooting so fast is that he lubes his special “borg” parts with his secret lube. If he’s feeling especially frisky and ole TW is shooting with him he breaks out the crunchy stuff! :P

 

Kajun

 

You do realize that my Bionics are the Para-Q design, mod 2.  They are the used parts from the update version Para-X which

Phantom and Red Knee use.

 

..........Widder

 

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45 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

You do realize that my Bionics are the Para-Q design, mod 2.  They are the used parts from the update version Para-X which

Phantom and Red Knee use.

 

..........Widder

 

And here all this time I thought they were the Barbee-Q design!

 

Kajun

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On 11/28/2021 at 1:16 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Widder, 

I was unaware of your wrist issue and brace use (if I had known - I would called you and asked your experiences).

 

I'll save you some time and tell you his "experiences". 

  He doesn't really "need" them other than as a handy excuse. For instance, if he screws up on a stage and it takes him 15 seconds to run it, he immediately hops up and down holding his wrists trying to extract sympathetic coddling from any cowgirls on the range. Just last match it got him 3 hugs, a sammich and 2 juice boxes. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'll save you some time and tell you his "experiences". 

  He doesn't really "need" them other than as a handy excuse. For instance, if he screws up on a stage and it takes him 15 seconds to run it, he immediately hops up and down holding his wrists trying to extract sympathetic coddling from any cowgirls on the range. Just last match it got him 3 hugs, a sammich and 2 juice boxes. 

Iffin he's got all them wimmins.... Why are his wrists so sore?:o

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26 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Is that all you gave him?:lol::D

OLG 

OLG, that’s all he had to give. You knowed ole TW ain’t parting wif any of his nanner split fixings! :D

 

Kajun

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'll save you some time and tell you his "experiences". 

  He doesn't really "need" them other than as a handy excuse. For instance, if he screws up on a stage and it takes him 15 seconds to run it, he immediately hops up and down holding his wrists trying to extract sympathetic coddling from any cowgirls on the range. Just last match it got him 3 hugs, a sammich and 2 juice boxes. 

See, it always depends on who you talk to.

 

I spoke with Widder and he said you were using Dairy Queen as a performance enhancing substance.  :D

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14 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

See, it always depends on who you talk to.

 

I spoke with Widder and he said you were using Dairy Queen as a performance enhancing substance.  :D

If it doesn't say you can't, you can!

 

....or so I've been told.

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Hey JEDI Creeker,

 

TN not only uses DQ as a performance enhancer, he actually stuffs 2 straws up his nostrils and what he can get thru his mouth is

sucked up in  those straws thru his nose.

But don't tell nobody.

 

..........Widder

 

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