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45 Special questions


Wicked Willie, SASS#9377

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For those that have experience, please.
I'm new to the idea of using reduced length cases, such as the .45 S&W and the .45 Special.  Are there ready sources for handloading data?  Are these reduced length rounds useful for reduced loads only, or can they be used to create factory equivalent rounds with careful work up and reduced powder charges?
If you're trimming .45 Colt cases to length...is the increased case wall thickness an issue?

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There are several threads here with loading data.  I use the Cowboy .45 Special in handguns and rifles.  I've not found a printed source (other than Trail Boss and that is sketchy at best) for C.45 Spl. ammo.  I started out cutting down .45 Colt cases.  Since you are looking at reduced loads, the thickness shouldn't be a problem.  My standard load is 3.5 gr. of Trail Boss witha 160 grn bullet.  I also use a 200 grn bullet if I run out of 160s.

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1 hour ago, Wicked Willie, SASS#9377 said:

Are there ready sources for handloading data?

For .45 Schofield, yes.  See Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 5th edition for several. 

 

For Cowboy .45 Special, no, it's a wildcat.  Although .45 Auto Rim data from same book will work for the heavy slugs typically shot from .45 Auto Rim guns.

 

These are cartridges that are attempting to REDUCE recoil and velocity without running into the common squibby and dirty performance that comes from loading .45 Colt real light.

 

1 hour ago, Wicked Willie, SASS#9377 said:

Are these reduced length rounds useful for reduced loads only, or can they be used to create factory equivalent rounds with careful work up and reduced powder charges?

 

Since there are commercial loads for .45 Schofield, yes, you can duplicate those.  But you will want to go lower and slower for Cowboy matches, most likely.  Can you duplicate commercial .45 Colt loads?  In some cases, because .45 Colt is not loaded very hot.   But it depends upon the firearm you are using!   Don't try to approach full .45 Colt loads in a Cowboy .45 Special case loaded in an old single action revolver design.   Pressure destroys many more guns than velocity.

 

1 hour ago, Wicked Willie, SASS#9377 said:

If you're trimming .45 Colt cases to length...is the increased case wall thickness an issue?

 

I've never had ANY problems with Cowboy .45 Special loads chambering and firing in Ruger Vaqueros, when shooting .452" slugs.   Adirondak Jack, the developer of C45S, found some problems with chambering in some of his guns, which is why he spec'd that Starline produce cases with the mouth wall thickness of the full length .45 Colt case, rather than the thickness of a cut back .45 Colt case. 

 

I cut a wide variety of .45 Colt cases back to the .898" length to make C45S cases, and never have had a problem with too thick a case wall.  I do not neck turn or make other tuning adjustments after trimming, other than to chamfer sharp edges off the mouth, inside and out.

 

good luck, GJ

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For a load that works well, I run 4.2 grains of Bullseye or WST with a 175 grain cast bullet conventionally lubed.

 

good luck, GJ

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Wow, a guy shooting 240 Power Factor loads from Cowboy .45 Special cases.   (200 grain bullet at up to 1200 FPS).   From a Blackhawk.  I have no idea how that even applies to shooting cowboy loads. 

 

And, he probably has no idea how the chamber pressure stacks up on these loads.  If the pressures are the same as in (same length) .45 auto cartridge case,  the Lee 200 grain bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique gives about 17,400 PSI (per Lyman Cast Bullet handbook, 5th edition).   Max factory loading for the standard .45 Colt cartridge is 14,000.   So, it may not blow up his Ruger Blackhawk (old model design), but it would be pretty excessive in SAA clones.      

 

Like most YouTube amateur loading "data", this is dangerous to publish and use.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

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PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe !!

 

Never ceases to amaze what some folks will do after they discover they can post a video.  No matter how stupid.  Looky looky what I just did and got away with.  No clue what the chamber pressure is??  Who cares.  Idin't hurt my Ruger (yet).  Must be OK - right??

 

There is some absolutely scary stuff out there.  Lots of it should never be re-posted.

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WW,

I load 4.o grains of Clay Dot under a 160 grain powder coated bullet,using cut down .45 Colt cases.

I did buy 45 Special cases,but they are pretty hard to get right now.I find no difference when using cut down 45 Colt cases,and I have plenty of brass to shorten.

Of course,YMMV.

Choctaw

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Wow, a guy shooting 240 Power Factor loads from Cowboy .45 Special cases.   (200 grain bullet at up to 1200 FPS).   From a Blackhawk.  I have no idea how that even applies to shooting cowboy loads. 

 

And, he probably has no idea how the chamber pressure stacks up on these loads.  If the pressures are the same as in (same length) .45 auto cartridge case,  the Lee 200 grain bullet and 7.5 grains of Unique gives about 17,400 PSI (per Lyman Cast Bullet handbook, 5th edition).   Max factory loading for the standard .45 Colt cartridge is 14,000.   So, it may not blow up his Ruger Blackhawk (old model design), but it would be pretty excessive in SAA clones.      

 

Like most YouTube amateur loading "data", this is dangerous to publish and use.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

I would agree nothing to do with 45 special loads for cowboy shoots. 

 

49 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe !!

 

Never ceases to amaze what some folks will do after they discover they can post a video.  No matter how stupid.  Looky looky what I just did and got away with.  No clue what the chamber pressure is??  Who cares.  Idin't hurt my Ruger (yet).  Must be OK - right??

 

There is some absolutely scary stuff out there.  Lots of it should never be re-posted.

Tier 2 45 colt type load at 17k not going to bother a Blsckhawk but definately not for Colts, Colt clones or even cowboy shooting IMO.

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I have in the past cut down 45 Colt cases to 45 Schofield length. I loaded then with Trail Boss under a 165 grn bullet.  Very mild load and never had any issue with the case. I used then in my pistols not the rifle. The best part about using a cut down 45 Colt case is the rim, don’t have to use a different shell plate. It’s been too many years since I did this and don’t recall the powder charge.

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1 hour ago, Slapshot said:

Does anyone load a .451 round ball in 45 spl ? And would it do as good as the short .452 160 gr RF nose bullet?

 

Has been done, in just about any .45 caliber pistol case you can think of.

 

As good?  Well, first, you would have to do something special about lubing (perhaps even poly coating) the bullet.  And you would get a better gas seal with a .454" diameter ball.  And probably better accuracy, but usually better still with a conventional bullet.  So, as good?  Probably not, considering bullet seating securely, ease of loading the cartridge at the reloading machine, and ensuring adequate lubrication.  And lots of C&B shooters complain about hits being called misses when they shoot round ball at 500 or 600 FPS on dead (non ringing) targets.

 

And to satisfy SASS rules, the bullet nose (tip of ball) must extend beyond the case mouth. 

 

good luck, GJ

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44 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Has been done, in just about any .45 caliber pistol case you can think of.

 

As good?  Well, first, you would have to do something special about lubing (perhaps even poly coating) the bullet.  And you would get a better gas seal with a .454" diameter ball.  And probably better accuracy, but usually better still with a conventional bullet.  So, as good?  Probably not, considering bullet seating securely, ease of loading the cartridge at the reloading machine, and ensuring adequate lubrication.  And lots of C&B shooters complain about hits being called misses when they shoot round ball at 500 or 600 FPS on dead (non ringing) targets.

 

And to satisfy SASS rules, the bullet nose (tip of ball) must extend beyond the case mouth. 

 

good luck, GJ

Thanks kinda figured that would be the case. I cast my own bullets and then PC them. But thinking it might be a pain getting the seating just right. Figured it would have to be center ball thing. Thought about a .454 ball but figured on the vaquero normally shooting .452 bullets it might be to big. 

 

Thanks for the heads up sounds like the 160 RF is a better choice.

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HEY HEY Snapshot,

 

I've shot 451 Round Ball out of a cartridge (including C45S).  It works.  Sort of.  Light load and it's like a "Gallery" load.  Out past 20 Yards, where it goes is anybody's guess.

 

My suggestion for C45S is the 130Gr 45 BARNSTORMER.  Really nifty bullet designed by Adarondack Jack.  Originally designed to be run in C45S cases.  The bullet is currently being was and is available from one of guys here on the wire.  Shootin Fox is casting the Barnstormer commercially.  Really fun.

 

I also really like 165Gr RNFP from Scarlett, Missouri Bullet or Badman.

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

HEY HEY Snapshot,

 

I've shot 451 Round Ball out of a cartridge (including C45S).  It works.  Sort of.  Light load and it's like a "Gallery" load.  Out past 20 Yards, where it goes is anybody's guess.

 

My suggestion for C45S is the 130Gr 45 BARNSTORMER.  Really nifty bullet designed by Adarondack Jack.  Originally designed to be run in C45S cases.  The bullet is currently being was and is available from one of guys here on the wire.  Shootin Fox is casting the Barnstormer commercially.  Really fun.

 

I also really like 165Gr RNFP from Scarlett, Missouri Bullet or Badman.

160 gr coated RNFP from CSA is another possibility.

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3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

HEY HEY Snapshot,

 

I've shot 451 Round Ball out of a cartridge (including C45S).  It works.  Sort of.  Light load and it's like a "Gallery" load.  Out past 20 Yards, where it goes is anybody's guess.

 

My suggestion for C45S is the 130Gr 45 BARNSTORMER.  Really nifty bullet designed by Adarondack Jack.  Originally designed to be run in C45S cases.  The bullet is currently being was and is available from one of guys here on the wire.  Shootin Fox is casting the Barnstormer commercially.  Really fun.

 

I also really like 165Gr RNFP from Scarlett, Missouri Bullet or Badman.

Thanks, I'm looking for somethign I can cast myself. That knocks out the 130 gr Barnstormer although I really like the looks of it. I had thought about the round ball but kinda figured the short , very short bearing surface might throw accuracy off. I will more than likly just go with the Lee 2 gang 160 RNFP. Need to go ahead and get that ordered today.

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I use a Lee .45 230-grain tumblelube mold and either 4.2 gr of Reddot or APP/777.

Moderate recoil and 2" groups at 15 yards in OMVs.

You can also reference .45 Auto-Rim data.  This is a .45 ACP with a .09" thick rim, made for shooting targets in .45ACP revolvers without a moon clip.  Low- to mid- pressure.

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Willie,

 

Ooops.  I didn't reference any load information for ya.  My Bad.  I shoot APP exclusively and loading for the C45S is dead simple.  APP 3f to the base of the bullet.  Any bullet.  Same same should you have APP 2f.  You will get a little more smoke out of 2f but slightly less recoil.

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