Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 I’ve used the 44 mag for most of my life, including my entire time in SASS with some mild loads. I’m at a stage where I don’t shoot much CAS any more but have a zillion 200gr hard cast pills. What has been folks experience shooting hotter 44 mag loads with lead? How fast can you go? Are we allowed to share load data on the Wire? Any insight is much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 I too have been a 44 man my whole life . Depends on how hard cast the lead bullet is cast . I have run them as hot as 1400 1500 fps . I hunt with a lead bullet running about 1300 fps . The harder cast the bullet . The faster you can push it to a extent . I would not exceed 1600 fps. My main load is 10 gr of Unique and a 200gr home cast lead bullet . Great accuracy load and hits plenty hard to do anything you need to do with it . Rooster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 A lot will depend upon several things. The gun and the bore condition will be one along with the bullet alloy, the hardness and actual size, Also the powder burn chatracteristics can have an effect on the maximum. My recommendation is to just experiment until you find a "happy place". Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 A rule of thumb is about 1400 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Suggest you take a look From Ingot to Target; A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Fryxell and Applegate. Specifically the chapters about Bullet Lube and Leading. BTW the father of the 44 magnum, Elmer Keith, shot a lot of cast bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Regulator Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said: I’ve used the 44 mag for most of my life, including my entire time in SASS with some mild loads. I’m at a stage where I don’t shoot much CAS any more but have a zillion 200gr hard cast pills. What has been folks experience shooting hotter 44 mag loads with lead? How fast can you go? Are we allowed to share load data on the Wire? Any insight is much appreciated. I use the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook as guidance for 240 gr from Missouri Bullet, lately the coated option. IMR4227 for stout and AA#7 for moderate. Those range in the usual lead bullet range of 1100 fps or so. The same book lists 200 gr loads in the same velocity range, referring to Linotype or Lyman #2 alloy hardness. I use the 200 gr as ideal for 44 Special, and you might consider the same for just target shooting with a 44 Magnum chambering. "Magnum" loads do not have to be full up performance and could be simply using magnum brass. Hodgdon's Cowboy loads for 44 Magnum show using Trailboss with 200 gr cast to stay under the SASS limit of 1000 fps. That is another very nice target load that doesn't beat up the shooter while still having some authority to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 I have used them in both a handgun and Marlin rifle. The main keys are bullet hardness and lube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 I use .44 mag for my main match pistols and for general fun. All lead bullets because I cast them by the thousands and I'm cheap. You can run them fairly stout with a good hard bullet and generous lube. I use Lee Alox. No leading. The Unique load given by the Rooster is a good mild load that whacks coyotes in grand style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said: I’ve used the 44 mag for most of my life, including my entire time in SASS with some mild loads. I’m at a stage where I don’t shoot much CAS any more but have a zillion 200gr hard cast pills. What has been folks experience shooting hotter 44 mag loads with lead? How fast can you go? Are we allowed to share load data on the Wire? Any insight is much appreciated. I never seemed to be able to get past leading and poor accuracy with the 44 RM. I'd be interested in what cowboy loads you were able to develop. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted November 24, 2021 Author Share Posted November 24, 2021 2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: I never seemed to be able to get past leading and poor accuracy with the 44 RM. I'd be interested in what cowboy loads you were able to develop. BB BB, Sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 The hi-teck bullets, properly sized, usually work well at higher velocties. I loaded some 44 mag 240gr swc coated bullets at around 1400 and it shot very clesn in my marlin cowboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: I never seemed to be able to get past leading and poor accuracy with the 44 RM. I'd be interested in what cowboy loads you were able to develop. BB Poor Accuracy ? I have never heard that in my life about shooting a 44 . The mild load 44 special is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot in my Life Says Elmer Keith and Me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 22 minutes ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said: Poor Accuracy ? I have never heard that in my life about shooting a 44 . The mild load 44 special is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot in my Life Says Elmer Keith and Me . Never could make it work for me. i had real good luck with Speer swaged 240 gr bullets and Trail Boss, and after they were no longer available i just gave up. Sold 2 of my Vaqueros and a 1894 Marlin. I suppose everyone has their nemesis, and mine is the 44 Mag/Spl. I switched to 44-40 and 45 Colt. and they work for me. I kept one Vaquero and a Super Blackhawk. My son has a 29-2 and a Rossi 92, so it's not like I got out of it completely, just don't use the caliber for CAS. Never really found a lead bullet that would work since the Speer. I'm on page 60 of my log book for 44 Mag, and at 3 loads per page, I think I gave it a good try. Always willing to learn, hence the query on load specifics. I've had decent results with gas checked bullets, but any of mine or commercial cast have been dismal failures, save the Speer swaged. Calibre 44 Rem Mag Date Loaded 2018-02-05 Powder Trail Boss Weight in Grains 7.2 (14) Bullet Speer 430 SWC Weight in Grains 240 Primer Rem 2 ½ Loaded OAL 1.6 Case ☆─☆ 44 MAG Weight in Grains Times Loaded Number loaded Firearm Little Tony Barrel clean/fouled Velocity Av 840.9 Es 22.09 Sd 7.34 Shots 10 BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 5 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: I never seemed to be able to get past leading and poor accuracy with the 44 RM. I'd be interested in what cowboy loads you were able to develop. BB For light loads you need a soft bullet for both accuracy and no leading. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 Charley, Some Lustrum ago, I ran a Super Blackhawk in 44 Mag (7 1/2 inch) and a Blackhawk in 45 Colt (4 5/8 inch). Ran 240Gr SWC in the 44 and 255Gr Keith type in the 45. Ran them both at about 1550 FPS. NO leading. Lotta Recoil. Wowzers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Big Boston. I assume you've tried other powder and bullet combinations. Especially powders other then Trailboss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 7 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: I never seemed to be able to get past leading and poor accuracy with the 44 RM. I'd be interested in what cowboy loads you were able to develop. BB Read the link I posted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Please don't over think this . There is Thousands and Thousands of postings and info out there on Casting , loading & shooting the 44 . You can load 165 gr fart loads to 300 gr Hammer Head Hard Cast Keith Style Bullets that can and will take down Anything that lives in freely America . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 12 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: Big Boston. I assume you've tried other powder and bullet combinations. Especially powders other then Trailboss. Yes, many combos, Trail Boss was used near the end of my testing. Then I changed direction, channeled my energies towards 38/357, then 44-40 and 45 Colt. Learning along the way. Also began using the Chrony more, expanded my mold selection and honed my bullet casting skills. The more testing I did, the more I got to appreciate Trail Boss powder. Appears as if this winter will be a long one, I may dust off the 44 Mag for a bit of load testing. Easier now, only have one left. Annoying when you find a combo that only works in one gun. Post or PM your pet 44 Mag loads. BB Nicest cowboy gun I ever owned, it sold fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Thank-you for the encouragement. I tried a few combos, but in the end went with what I know. Some fine tuning is in order, but it's a decent load. Calibre 44 Remington Magnum Date Loaded 2021-11-25 Powder Trail Boss Weight in Grains 5.2 Bullet LEE 429-200 RF Weight in Grains 206.5 Primer CCI 300 LP Loaded OAL 1.53 Case W-W SUPER 44 MAGNUM Weight in Grains 110 Times Loaded Number loaded Firearm Little Tony Barrel clean/fouled Velocity Av 755.6/751.5 Es 20.5/25.36 Sd 8.24/11.13 Shots 5>/5< It has been my experience that if you load Trail Boss at about 70% capacity, and use a CCI LP or sometimes a Fed 150 LP, the numbers will be there. The starting load on the Hodgdons site is 6.1 gr for about 100 fps more than I got with 5.2. IIRC, this was my first foray into less than book minimum loads for the 44 Mag. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 200 grain Lee mold RNFP, 5.5 grains Trail Boss. That's my CAS load. 10.0 grains Unique with the same bullet and Starline brass when I want a little something more for critters. H110 and a hard cast 240 grain Lee SWC for deer. All shoot well from Blackhawks, Marlin and Winchester rifles and an H&R single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 I used 20 gr of H110 and a 240 gr SWC for bowling pins and NRA silhouette back in the 1980s. Great accuracy and enough oomph to make pins jump off the table. I have loaded 200 grRNFP and 240 gr SWC with 4.4 gr of Cleanshot for cowboy, with great results. The 240s make sg targets fall when used for Josey Wales. I love my .44s and am hoping to trade for another this weekend. I have a lot of data from the 80s when I did a lot of testing with all the common powders available then for .44. I also had a 200 gr JHP going over 1600fps that would shoot a 4" group at 100 yds, It was abusive and loud and I loved shooting pins and silhouette with it. Now, not so much. PM me for details and data from back then. Imis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 3 hours ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said: I used 20 gr of H110 and a 240 gr SWC for bowling pins and NRA silhouette back in the 1980s. Great accuracy and enough oomph to make pins jump off the table. I have loaded 200 grRNFP and 240 gr SWC with 4.4 gr of Cleanshot for cowboy, with great results. The 240s make sg targets fall when used for Josey Wales. I love my .44s and am hoping to trade for another this weekend. I have a lot of data from the 80s when I did a lot of testing with all the common powders available then for .44. I also had a 200 gr JHP going over 1600fps that would shoot a 4" group at 100 yds, It was abusive and loud and I loved shooting pins and silhouette with it. Now, not so much. PM me for details and data from back then. Imis I too have always shot and loaded 44's When I was a Lad I was a huge 44 Magnum Guy . The older I get I like 44 special and 44 Russian loads . My Very First Hand Gun I Ever Bought Myself Was a Blackhawk 44 Magnum . I now own more 44's in Pistol and Rifle then I dare to count .lol As Far as I'm Concerned it's the best cartridge ever made . Rooster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 Before I once again hijack this thread once again, I have a bit of insight into cast bullets and velocity. Pretty common, and accepted, knowledge that harder the bullet, the higher velocity it will tolerate. Hardness does not tell the whole story, the bullet also needs to be strong. Antimony, Sb, adds hardness to pure lead. A somewhat linear arrangement, IOW, the higher the 5 of Sb, the harder the bullet. Tin, Sn, adds hardness but only for the first few %, but it continues to had strength for a few more %. EK talked in length about bullet skidding, and the harder stronger a bullet is, the higher the velocity before skidding becomes an issue. The next factor is fit. I've found that the looser the bullet, the lower velocity it will tolerate. IOW, you can get by with a slightly undersized bullet if you keep the velocity down. I'm guessing here, but you can get away with bullets that are up to 0.001" under ideal, if you keep your velocities around 700 fps. My experience seems to indicate that you can get away with bullets that are 0.001" under groove diameter, and no more than 0.002" under throat diameter. Ideally, I think if you can shoot bullets sized to the throats and about 0.001" larger than the groove diameter, you'll be golden. The whole business gets messed up with other factors. Having a lube tailored to the application can gain you velocity before leading makes the whole project a loosing battle. Bullets vary in shape and size, what are the details? Bullet shape? bullet diameter, groove diameter? throat diameter? lube? You may want to clean the bullets and relube them with a lube better suited to higher velocity. Now to the hijack: I loaded up a bunch more 44 Mag Cowboy ammo, and lowered the powder a bit to 5 grains. Small changes can make a difference, so I chronographed the load again. Calibre 44 Remington Magnum Date Loaded 2021-11-25 Powder Trail Boss Weight in Grains 5.0 Bullet LEE 429-200 RF (sized 430) Weight in Grains 206.5 Primer CCI 300 LP Loaded OAL 1.53 Case W-W SUPER 44 MAGNUM Weight in Grains 110 Times Loaded Number loaded 50, +50 Firearm Little Tony Barrel clean/fouled Velocity Av 736/742 Es 31.1/30.5 Sd 10.04/11.35 Shots 5>/5< I rank this one as being decent. To be good, I like to have the powder position factor to be 5 fps or less, and the Sd (Standard Deviation) to be under 10. If I come close, my ranking drops to decent. This load has a powder position factor of 6 fps, and the Sd is under 12, for a decent+ rating. YMMV Leading is limited to the ramp on the lands, on the end of the forcing cone. The forcing cone is pretty and shiny. BTW, I'm under groove diameter, and about 0.001" under throat diameter. BHN of bullets is 14 to 15, and I'm using something similar to NRA lube. The barrel on my Vaquero is 5.5". Calibre 44 Remington Magnum Date Loaded 2021-11-25 Powder Trail Boss Weight in Grains 5.2 Bullet LEE 429-200 RF Weight in Grains 206.5 Primer CCI 300 LP Loaded OAL 1.53 Case W-W SUPER 44 MAGNUM Weight in Grains 110 Times Loaded Number loaded Firearm Little Tony Barrel clean/fouled Velocity Av 755.6/751.5 Es 20.5/25.36 Sd 8.24/11.13 Shots 5>/5< Going from 5.2 gr down to 5.0 gr sort of proves that 5.2 is just about the lower limit for powder density. In all likelihood that will be my go to loading. Cowboys shoot steel against the clock, we do not shoot for the best chronograph results. And a big thanks to the posters for this topic, my 44 Mag is back in my favor. I'll use it for a meet or two next year. If this load works in my sons Rossi '92, I'll use it as well. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 A properly sized cylinder throat has always improved my handguns accuracy using cast- something Ruger consistently fails to deliver on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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