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Ruger NMV problem


Captain Bill Burt
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37 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yes.  I can push it closed, or take my finger off the trigger and it will close. 


Everyone is way over thinking this...

 

Nothing has changed and the guns previously worked.

 

If you can push the hammer forward to close the gap the springs are too light now, and have probably taken a set.

 

I have seen vaquero mainsprings do this on every gun I have worked on.

If the springs were right on the edge of reliability when installed it won’t take much to lose reliability.

 

Replace the springs or add a washer as Lumpy suggests.

 

 

Letting up on the trigger releases the hammer and transfer bar and allows the hammer to fall forward.

This is how all vaqueros work.

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2 minutes ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

have probably taken a set

I tend to agree... but it is one heckuva coincidence that they both took enough of a set to create FTF at the same time.  I wonder if the same guns unaltered would work better if allowed to warm in the sun for a while, to counteract the effects of the cold morning... 

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42 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Question #2. Does it happen with the cylinder out of the gun? 

 

sb

yes

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Pic post'n is above my skillz.

Put the washer at the bottom of the hammer spring.

Use the thicker #10 AN washers. 

OLG 

I don't have any washers laying around so I used a piece of scrap leather and created one.  I installed it, and I'm seeing a lot more firing pin coming out of the frame and the gap between the hammer and the frame after I pull the trigger is a lot smaller.   The difference in cocking difficulty is almost imperceptible.  I'm going to put one in the other gun and we'll see how that goes. 

 

Later when I have time I'll take one down and check the pawl. and make sure there's no debris or stuff in there. 

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1 hour ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

I have a question from reading some of the replies here. Sorry to interrupt on your thread Captain Bill Burt.

Anyway , how could a base pin be in too far and interfere with the hammer if it is latched in place, same as it has always been in the past ??

Curious , Rex :D

Go check your pistols, if you don't have replacement base pins the ruger factory pins can get pushed in too far and they protrude slightly out the back of the frame into the hammer channel.  This effectively makes a hammer stop and the hammers will not fall all the way and will strike the transfer bar/firing pin light.  If you don't have extra power base pin springs you can push them past the locking notch.

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34 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:
1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

Question #2. Does it happen with the cylinder out of the gun? 

 

sb

yes

 

Is it safe to assume it also happens when the base pin is out of the gun?

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1 hour ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

I tend to agree... but it is one heckuva coincidence that they both took enough of a set to create FTF at the same time.  I wonder if the same guns unaltered would work better if allowed to warm in the sun for a while, to counteract the effects of the cold morning... 

I would think it kinda adds to the diagnosis that their both doing it . Especially since they probably have seen the same amount of use . The hammer springs probably were from the same batch or piece of spring stock . The hammer spring has to be able to overcome any resistance of the transfer bar and the firing pin return spring to stay all the way down. And if there’s not something mechanical preventing this the hammer spring simply doesn’t have enough push at full extension. 
All this being said without being able to physically examine it , it’s still just a best guess 

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1 hour ago, Jack Spade said:

Go check your pistols, if you don't have replacement base pins the ruger factory pins can get pushed in too far and they protrude slightly out the back of the frame into the hammer channel.  This effectively makes a hammer stop and the hammers will not fall all the way and will strike the transfer bar/firing pin light.  If you don't have extra power base pin springs you can push them past the locking notch.

Maybe I have just been lucky. Since my first Ruger single action in 1967 , I have probably owned about 40 or 50 different ones ,and have not had that happen. Yet.

Rex :D

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yes.  I can push it closed, or take my finger off the trigger and it will close. 

Have you looked at the hammer plungers?  if they get slightly bent, or broken and cannot retract into their boring easily enough ( or if they run too dry of lubricant at their tip), they can drag or wedge against the top surface of the bolt tang and slow down or prevent full hammer drop.  A heavier main spring could overcome it temporarily by overpowering the drag and provide a false remedy.

  

When the plunger in one of my NMVs became noticeably bent, I experienced the same thing you are describing.  I changed the plunger, pin and plunger spring for $7 and the problem disappeared.   A drop of oil delivered to the tip of the plunger might cure it too, at least temporarily.  

But it's a mystery why both guns developed the same problem simultaneously.  Did you disassemble the trigger-hammer-t-bar-pawl assy, such that both plungers might have been bent slightly on reassembly?  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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52 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

 

Is it safe to assume it also happens when the base pin is out of the gun?

It does.

6 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Have you looked at the hammer plungers?  if they get slightly bent, or broken and cannot retract into their boring easily enough ( or if they run too dry of lubricant at their tip), they can drag or wedge against the top surface of the bolt tang and slow down or prevent full hammer drop.  A heavier main spring could overcome it temporarily by overpowering the drag and provide a false remedy.

  

When the plunger in one of my NMVs became noticeably bent, I experienced the same thing you are describing.  I changed the plunger, pin and plunger spring for $7 and the problem disappeared.   A drop of oil delivered to the tip of the plunger might cure it too, at least temporarily.  

But it's a mystery why both guns developed the same problem simultaneously.  Did you disassemble the trigger-hammer-t-bar-pawl assy, such that both plungers might have been bent slightly on reassembly?  

I’ve never done more than take the cylinders out.

 

The leather washers seem to have done the trick, for now. I’ll take one of them down later.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It does.

I’ve never done more than take the cylinders out.

 

The leather washers seem to have done the trick, for now. I’ll take one of them down later.

Do you have a good bolt house near you?

Leather won't last.

Get those #10 AN washers and buy extra.

IMHO, I don't trust those springs. 

If it was me, I'd order new ones from Wolff.

Call Wolff and ask them to pull both springs from the same lot run. This way they are identical. 

OLG 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

I don't have any washers laying around so I used a piece of scrap leather and created one. 

I have quite a bit of leather in varying thicknesses in the loading room - may try that first.

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18 hours ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

Maybe I have just been lucky. Since my first Ruger single action in 1967 , I have probably owned about 40 or 50 different ones ,and have not had that happen. Yet.

Rex :D

You and me both.

Got curious and decided to drag 8 OMV's and 6 NMV's out of the safe to try, and could NOT force the base pin in far enough to interfere with the hammer.

Factory base pins (although I have shortened the heads a bit for more positive ejection) and and factory base pin latch springs on all but 2 of them.

Guess anything is possible though.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

You coming over this weekend?

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49 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

You and me both.

Got curious and decided to drag 8 OMV's and 6 NMV's out of the safe to try, and could NOT force the base pin in far enough to interfere with the hammer.

Factory base pins (although I have shortened the heads a bit for more positive ejection) and and factory base pin latch springs on all but 2 of them.

Guess anything is possible though.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

You coming over this weekend?

OMV cylinder pin has a shoulder that stops the pin. 

OLG 

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3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OMV cylinder pin has a shoulder that stops the pin. 

OLG 

Yes I know. Check back a few posts. Others said without aftermarket pins and extra strength latches you had potential for hammer interference due to over penetration into hammer channel. Not possible on mine but I was being polite.

Gateway

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Captain, I’ve been waiting to chime in and I’ll offer this:  1.  the day that it all started it was cold;  2. the guns are racers, which means they are probably working “on the edge” and prone to being just ready to break;  3. changing springs did cure the FTF, and if I’ve got it right you put a small spacer on and that stopped the FTF also.  Now on to the unorthodox trouble shooting, using the springs and spacer that stopped the FTF put the guns in the freezer for an hour or two, enough to get the springs cold.  With them cold try them and see if the FTF happens, then let them get nice and warm and see if it goes bang again.  If that truly is your problem, I’d replace the springs with some from Wolf Springs and be done with it, if not (and it was me) I’d always be watching the weather and wonder if it was too cold for the springs.  New springs are a cheap and easy fix and will keep it reliable, now the hard part will be to get the right spring weight.  

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In your statement, I also noticed that when you pull the trigger and the hammer falls, it doesn't quite fall all the way.  There's a slight gap between the frame and the hammer.  Once you take your finger off the trigger and let it reset, the hammer comes down all the way

Look at the top of your transfer bar for a small shiny spot. It may be a little long, this possibly happened as parts wore it

 

 

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On 11/16/2021 at 1:24 PM, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

When two things are working perfectly and then both quit simultaneously the chances of that happening are very low.  Something changed.  Did you get the cylinders reversed?  Did someone else take the guns apart?  Gun makers often put in heavy springs to overcome poor fitting parts and to make sure the guns will fire.  The solution is not to put in heavier springs if the guns were working OK.  The solution is to do a little investigation, find the problem and fix the problem.  There are only five parts in the Vaquero operating system.  The hammer, the pawl, the transfer bar, the bolt and the trigger.  It is not rocket science to fix one.  It just takes some careful inspection looking for the problem(s).

I've taken one of them down (and gotten it back together again thankfully) and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary about the pawl, bolt or trigger.  The Montado hammers that were installed don't have the scalloped face on the first notch the way the original hammers did. 

On 11/16/2021 at 1:26 PM, Jack Spade said:

If both did it at the same  time I would suspect the base pins pushed in too far.   Or possibly you got the base pins or cylinders switched. 

This was not the issue.

2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Captain, I’ve been waiting to chime in and I’ll offer this:  1.  the day that it all started it was cold;  2. the guns are racers, which means they are probably working “on the edge” and prone to being just ready to break;  3. changing springs did cure the FTF, and if I’ve got it right you put a small spacer on and that stopped the FTF also.  Now on to the unorthodox trouble shooting, using the springs and spacer that stopped the FTF put the guns in the freezer for an hour or two, enough to get the springs cold.  With them cold try them and see if the FTF happens, then let them get nice and warm and see if it goes bang again.  If that truly is your problem, I’d replace the springs with some from Wolf Springs and be done with it, if not (and it was me) I’d always be watching the weather and wonder if it was too cold for the springs.  New springs are a cheap and easy fix and will keep it reliable, now the hard part will be to get the right spring weight.  

I don't know that I'll go the freezer route, but if the guns run well Saturday I'll probably order a couple of sets of Wolf Springs and experiment with different spring strengths. 

1 hour ago, Lefty Wheeler said:

In your statement, I also noticed that when you pull the trigger and the hammer falls, it doesn't quite fall all the way.  There's a slight gap between the frame and the hammer.  Once you take your finger off the trigger and let it reset, the hammer comes down all the way

Look at the top of your transfer bar for a small shiny spot. It may be a little long, this possibly happened as parts wore it

 

 

I looked but no shiny spot.  

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Quote: The Montado hammers that were installed don't have the scalloped face on the first notch the way the original hammers did. 

 

Someone lied to you; those are SBH hammers. Not a big difference, but they are different.

I'd love to have some Montado hammers, I think they look better. Also, they come polished where the SBH hammers are brushed... til I get em.   :D

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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Quote: The Montado hammers that were installed don't have the scalloped face on the first notch the way the original hammers did. 

 

Someone lied to you; those are SBH hammers. Not a big difference, but they are different.

I'd love to have some Montado hammers, I think they look better. Also, they come polished where the SBH hammers are brushed... til I get em.   :D

Nobody lied, I just don't know the difference between Montado and SBH hammers.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Nobody lied, I just don't know the difference between Montado and SBH hammers.

Well, now Lumpy hooked ya up. Thanks Lump

I just think the Montado hammer just looks more finished. Not as aggressive on the serrations either.

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I had an issue with my NMV, with the hammer falling all the way. It was not the pinch on the transfer bar. 

 

The hand on the NMV touches the surface of the grip frame. This slightly pushes the hand away from the cylinder. This is so the gun will free wheel if you take out the indexing pawl that is for the unloading index. 

 

Ruger also changed the transfer bar somewhere along the line in NMV production. Earlier made ones have a thicker end to let the hammer strike the primer sooner. 

 

On mine, if I pulled the trigger and held it down, I could push the hammer forward and it would return to the original position. It was like the hammer spring could not overcome the firing pin spring and cylinder pin spring, but that was not the root cause. Like I stated above, the hand was jamming against the grip frame. 

 

IIRC, this feature was discussed a few months back.

  

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The pistols functioned flawlessly yesterday. I plan to buy a few #10 AN washers as backups and a couple of Wolf Springs kits with the different spring weights.

Glad you got it straightened out. Never had that issue with my SASS Ruger's. But they are just backups now. 

 

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