45 cowboy special load data

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

Looking for load data for 45 special with clays and 185 bullet. 
Loading for a younger kid so looking for the lighter end data. Shoot me a pm if you have something that will work. 
Thanks, LF. 
 

[La Sombra]

180 grn bullet over 3.5 Trailboss 

[Choctaw Jack]

PM sent.

[Sarge]

I'm using a 160 grn bullet over 3.5 grn of Trailboss.  Also use a 200 grn bullet over the same amount of Trailboss if I can't get the 160 grn bullets.

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

Thanks guys, That’s what I was looking for. 
Choctaw, Thanks for the Pm. 
LF. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

4.2 grains Bullseye and a 175 grain bullet works for me.  I'm sure 4.0 Bullseye would work for that bullet you have.

good luck, GJ

[Roscoe Regulator]

I would look for that bullet weight under 45 ACP.

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

I use 3.2 gr. Clays with a 165 gr Bear Creek bullet and it chronographs at 482 fps

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

5 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

I would look for that bullet weight under 45 ACP.

 

That's a sure fire way to get over-pressure loads for a SAA clone gun or a New Model Vaquero.  Way hotter than what the OP asked for.  Published .45 auto loads have to be able to run a 1911.

 

good luck, GJ

[Slapshot]

Yep standard 45 acp runs around 21k PSI, and 45 colt around 14K. Not sure if I would try it in any clone that didn't come with a 45 acp cylinder. Also begs the question what pressure can the clones actually handle? 

 

But to be on the safe side I'd never recommend anything over 14k in a SAA clone gun. Stick with loads 14k and under.

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

3.9 grains of Clays under 160 or 170 grain bullet. Easy on my arthritis.

[Roscoe Regulator]

18 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

That's a sure fire way to get over-pressure loads for a SAA clone gun or a New Model Vaquero.  Way hotter than what the OP asked for.  Published .45 auto loads have to be able to run a 1911.

 

good luck, GJ

Nope! I am running below published 45 ACP loads, which I used for getting me in the ball park with a cartridge of the same volume . You are arguing with someone who actually loads and shoots 45CS after having tested some lower powder weights and finding them weak and unsatisfying in a 5.5" El Patron or Pietta GW II.  6.1 W231 with 160 grain lead works just fine for me.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I shoot only Cowboy 45 Special for revolvers in SASS.  Have done for over 10 years.  Please don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about. 

 

But to tell folks to use .45 Auto data for loading Cowboy .45 Special is dangerous. 

)

On 11/16/2021 at 6:58 AM, Roscoe Regulator said:

I would look for that bullet weight under 45 ACP.

Especially when you now tell us  that you are loading 0.3 grains less than the minimum published Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook  .45 auto load, with 160 grain bullet, data you recommended they use but did not put any stipulation on to use "something less" than what is published!

 

The load data for .45 Auto Rim is much safer to recommend to folks.  Same case size, but limited pressure levels, maximum pressure about 14,000 psi.  Of course, the Auto Rim data rarely shows a light bullet.  But it will keep loads in a safe pressure region for any .45 Colt revolver to be used (which was not specified by the OP)

 

good luck, GJ

 

[Slapshot]

Sad part about published loads is they are watered ie lawyered down so much now days. I use current Quickload to work up loads instead. In my opinion a better option.

 

Everyone's mileage will vary though. And always start low and work a load up to what you want.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Slapshot said:

Sad part about published loads is they are watered ie lawyered down so much now days.

 

I don't find that true with Lyman cast bullet data.  It matches almost exactly with QuickLOAD calculations for the 3 rifle cast bullet loads I commonly make.   Lyman shows you both what is a workable minimum, and a high pressure maximum, and shows the pressures they actually measured.    When the publisher is smart enough to show you the pressures and velocities, it's a good indicator they are not fudging the data.

 

Lyman's cartridge loading data is usually extremely close to predicting maximum useful load in .45 Auto and .45 Colt handgun loads, too.

 

Lyman's shotgun manual, though, badly needs an update for current component selections.

 

One data set that I don't like much is Alliant's.  It's too sparse on it's coverage of powders, and usually only shows you a max load and encourages you to guess about a starting load.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe.

 

Many "On Line" load suggestions are "Sketchy" at best.  Published load data is derived from hard work with pressure test equipment and is meant to be safe in all guns so chambered.  Lawyers have nothing to do with it.

[Slapshot]

6 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe.

 

Many "On Line" load suggestions are "Sketchy" at best.  Published load data is derived from hard work with pressure test equipment and is meant to be safe in all guns so chambered.  Lawyers have nothing to do with it.

You honestly don't think the companies lawyers don't have anything to do with the published loads? I'd disagree and say that some loads are watered down and suggest the 38 spl as being one of those. Yes the test loads with pressure equipment doesn't mean they go to max pressure they can go to.. 

[Slapshot]

7 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

I don't find that true with Lyman cast bullet data.  It matches almost exactly with QuickLOAD calculations for the 3 rifle cast bullet loads I commonly make.   Lyman shows you both what is a workable minimum, and a high pressure maximum, and shows the pressures they actually measured.    When the publisher is smart enough to show you the pressures and velocities, it's a good indicator they are not fudging the data.

 

Lyman's cartridge loading data is usually extremely close to predicting maximum useful load in .45 Auto and .45 Colt handgun loads, too.

 

Lyman's shotgun manual, though, badly needs an update for current component selections.

 

One data set that I don't like much is Alliant's.  It's too sparse on it's coverage of powders, and usually only shows you a max load and encourages you to guess about a starting load.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Ok pulled out my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Most 38 spl loads stop in the 16k range with 1-2 going to 18k.  The top for 38 spl is 18.5 so why do they stop their loads at 16? Just a observation. We all have our own methods of coming up with our loads. 

I don't care for the manuals to much as I feel they all need a update. For me personally I like and use Quickload, and only resort to the manuals when I want a starting point.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, you are misunderstanding some really important points.  SAAMI specs for .38 special, in PSI transducer measurements, are at 17,000 PSI MAP  - maximum average pressure.  That is what all the members of the SAAMI committee (including Colt, S&W, Ruger, even Mossberg) have agreed is appropriate for all .38 special firearms to be built to withstand, and for ammunition manufacturers not to exceed in their loading.  

 

Your statement that the "top pressure for .38 Special is at 18,500 PSI" uses  the number from the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) column of the SAAMI pressure limits table.  I suggest you read that definition - it's in the SAAMI reference document.  But commercial ammo is loaded no hotter than the MAP limit, NOT to the MPSM limit.

 

Looking at the .38 special 125 grain lead bullet loads in Lyman 5th Edition (their latest Cast Bullet handbook), I see several examples in the max loads column, including:

 

Clays          3.6 grains makes 16,600 PSI

Titegroup  3.6 grains makes 16,900 PSI

Bullseye     4.2 grains makes 16,900 PSI

231               4.8 grains makes 16,600 PSI

 

The numbers in Lyman 5th that show higher pressures than 17,000 psi  - are for the +P .38 special load designation - higher MAP pressure of 20,000 PSI is permitted for +P loads in that cartridge.   But not all .38 special guns are designed for nor can they handle +P loads.

 

The standard .38 Special data all maxes out at just under the SAAMI standard of 17,000 PSI.  As it should to comply with SAAMI cartridge performance and safety standards.

 

Why can't they show data for EXACTLY 17,000 PSI, you seem to be asking?  Well, because Lyman does not show load weights more precisely than the nearest tenth of a grain.   If you assume a linear weight to pressure curve at Lyman's max load data (probably a risky assumption, since pressure usually goes non-linear towards the hot side) you can extrapolate any of those loads and you find that another tenth of a grain of powder on each would yield pressures over 17,000 PSI.   Here's my extrapolation results by hand held calculator:

 

***** DO NOT USE - EXCEEDS SAAMI STANDARDS ********

Clays         (linearly extrapolated to 3.7 grains, may make 17,030 PSI)

Titegroup (extrapolated to 3.7 grains, may make 17,300 PSI)

Bullseye    (extrapolated to 4.3 grains, may make 17,240 PSI)

231              (extrapolated to 4.9 grains, may make 17,040 PSI)

***** DO NOT USE - EXCEEDS SAAMI STANDARDS ********

 

If Lyman published THOSE load weights and pressures, then some "data sniper" would be all over Lyman for violating SAAMI pressure maximums.

 

You of course can do what you want with manuals.  If you think QuickLOAD software doesn't use the manuals as real-world calibration points for their algorithms, think again.  In fact, if I remember reading the loading data performance part of the manual for QL, it cautions users about getting too confident in the QL velocity and pressure results, and requests that users bounce loads off of published loading manuals as a sanity check.  And watch for common high pressure signs.  And check chronographed muzzle velocities.

 

But to recommend to others that they not use well-proven, safe loading manuals, that is dangerous.  Especially if the alternative is using non-professionally researched "internet" data, or just assuming QuickLOAD is infallible.

 

So, no, Lyman did not water down their .38 special loading data.  They list loads right up to the SAAMI maximum load pressures (the MAP).

 

Sorry for the lengthy information dump.   But understanding this (the application of SAAMI standards) is an important part of reloading safely.

 

good luck, GJ

 

[Roscoe Regulator]

21 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I shoot only Cowboy 45 Special for revolvers in SASS.  Have done for over 10 years.  Please don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about. 

 

But to tell folks to use .45 Auto data for loading Cowboy .45 Special is dangerous. 

)

 

Especially when you now tell us  that you are loading 0.3 grains less than the minimum published Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook  .45 auto load, with 160 grain bullet, data you recommended they use but did not put any stipulation on to use "something less" than what is published!

 

The load data for .45 Auto Rim is much safer to recommend to folks.  Same case size, but limited pressure levels, maximum pressure about 14,000 psi.  Of course, the Auto Rim data rarely shows a light bullet.  But it will keep loads in a safe pressure region for any .45 Colt revolver to be used (which was not specified by the OP)

 

good luck, GJ

 

Cowboy loads are typically below published minimums, which just give us a baseline for load development. Pressure numbers for 45 ACP apply to a max level that likely few people shoot.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

It seems there is an important point being missed or just ignored.  Load data is arrived at, "to be safe in most any gun manufactured in that chambering."  A max'd out 45 Colt load, shootable in a Ruger, may well violently disassemble a first generation SAA.  The idea that load data should be as high "as they can go" is ludicrous.  45 Colt can be loaded to equal 44 Magnum Pressure/Velocity being safe only in a Ruger Blackhawk (Old Model) Only resorting to manuals to find a starting point is irresponsible.  Publicly suggesting methods of load development that ignore the tenants of safety is stupid.  Without the proper pressure test equipment, one is only guessing. 

[Slapshot]

On 11/17/2021 at 9:54 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Well, you are misunderstanding some really important points.  SAAMI specs for .38 special, in PSI transducer measurements, are at 17,000 PSI MAP  - maximum average pressure.  That is what all the members of the SAAMI committee (including Colt, S&W, Ruger, even Mossberg) have agreed is appropriate for all .38 special firearms to be built to withstand, and for ammunition manufacturers not to exceed in their loading.  

 

Your statement that the "top pressure for .38 Special is at 18,500 PSI" uses  the number from the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) column of the SAAMI pressure limits table.  I suggest you read that definition - it's in the SAAMI reference document.  But commercial ammo is loaded no hotter than the MAP limit, NOT to the MPSM limit.

 

Looking at the .38 special 125 grain lead bullet loads in Lyman 5th Edition (their latest Cast Bullet handbook), I see several examples in the max loads column, including:

 

Clays          3.6 grains makes 16,600 PSI

Titegroup  3.6 grains makes 16,900 PSI

Bullseye     4.2 grains makes 16,900 PSI

231               4.8 grains makes 16,600 PSI

 

The numbers in Lyman 5th that show higher pressures than 17,000 psi  - are for the +P .38 special load designation - higher MAP pressure of 20,000 PSI is permitted for +P loads in that cartridge.   But not all .38 special guns are designed for nor can they handle +P loads.

 

The standard .38 Special data all maxes out at just under the SAAMI standard of 17,000 PSI.  As it should to comply with SAAMI cartridge performance and safety standards.

 

Why can't they show data for EXACTLY 17,000 PSI, you seem to be asking?  Well, because Lyman does not show load weights more precisely than the nearest tenth of a grain.   If you assume a linear weight to pressure curve at Lyman's max load data (probably a risky assumption, since pressure usually goes non-linear towards the hot side) you can extrapolate any of those loads and you find that another tenth of a grain of powder on each would yield pressures over 17,000 PSI.   Here's my extrapolation results by hand held calculator:

 

***** DO NOT USE - EXCEEDS SAAMI STANDARDS ********

Clays         (linearly extrapolated to 3.7 grains, may make 17,030 PSI)

Titegroup (extrapolated to 3.7 grains, may make 17,300 PSI)

Bullseye    (extrapolated to 4.3 grains, may make 17,240 PSI)

231              (extrapolated to 4.9 grains, may make 17,040 PSI)

***** DO NOT USE - EXCEEDS SAAMI STANDARDS ********

 

If Lyman published THOSE load weights and pressures, then some "data sniper" would be all over Lyman for violating SAAMI pressure maximums.

 

You of course can do what you want with manuals.  If you think QuickLOAD software doesn't use the manuals as real-world calibration points for their algorithms, think again.  In fact, if I remember reading the loading data performance part of the manual for QL, it cautions users about getting too confident in the QL velocity and pressure results, and requests that users bounce loads off of published loading manuals as a sanity check.  And watch for common high pressure signs.  And check chronographed muzzle velocities.

 

But to recommend to others that they not use well-proven, safe loading manuals, that is dangerous.  Especially if the alternative is using non-professionally researched "internet" data, or just assuming QuickLOAD is infallible.

 

So, no, Lyman did not water down their .38 special loading data.  They list loads right up to the SAAMI maximum load pressures (the MAP).

 

Sorry for the lengthy information dump.   But understanding this (the application of SAAMI standards) is an important part of reloading safely.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Thanks, for your explanation. My understanding is/was that SAMMI for 38 spl is 17.5k. But then again its changed over the years so who knows now. Or at least thats my understanding.

 

I think you are mistaken also. I did not recommend to any one not to use manuals. I stated my preference. 

 

What I said was "I don't care for the manuals to much as I feel they all need a update. For me personally I like and use Quickload, and only resort to the manuals when I want a starting point."

 

I appreciate your discussion on the topic. Gives me another view point to consider and to think about.

 

Thanks 

 

 

3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

It seems there is an important point being missed or just ignored.  Load data is arrived at, "to be safe in most any gun manufactured in that chambering."  A max'd out 45 Colt load, shootable in a Ruger, may well violently disassemble a first generation SAA.  The idea that load data should be as high "as they can go" is ludicrous.  45 Colt can be loaded to equal 44 Magnum Pressure/Velocity being safe only in a Ruger Blackhawk (Old Model) Only resorting to manuals to find a starting point is irresponsible.  Publicly suggesting methods of load development that ignore the tenants of safety is stupid.  Without the proper pressure test equipment, one is only guessing. 

When you want to discuss the topic we can do that. 

 

Just curious look in your manual and tell me a published load for a 6mm mongoose or a 277 wolverine. 

 

 

 

[Tom Bullweed]

I used .45 Auto Rim data as a starter load.

Ended up with 4.2 gr of Reddot under 185-200 grain lead bullets.