Cylinder Reaming - .45 Colt UPDATED MEASUREMENTS- Now I am confused…

[Pat Riot]

I have a Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt that could use some accurizing. I also have an original Vaquero that always has 1 flyer. 
Both gun’s cylinder measure at .451” using a digital caliper. I don’t own pin gauges. 
 

I was going to buy a reamer, pilots and tee handle from Brownells and ream the cylinders to .4525” myself, but after pricing them I wondered if I could find a gunsmith to do them for me at a reasonable rate. 
I am having zero luck locally and the few that I found online that did this have retired or stopped offering the service. I figure $80-$100 beat a $220 investment in a tool I will use twice. 
 

Anyone know a gunsmith that will ream my cylinders if I mail them to them at a reasonable rate?
 

Thank you

 

SCROLL DOWN FOR MEASUREMENT UPDATE.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Thought about buying the reamer kit myself, once upon a time. Yes, cost-prohibitive for an item you'd use a couple of times.

I haven't worried so much about the cylinders as the forcing comes; some of the factory cones are garbage. A little reaming would clean em up and make em much easier to clean... may even help the accuracy. Again, haven't shelled out the $$ for something that will collect a lot of dust. Now, I do have several .45s (well, I did be fore the accident ) and may get a good bit of use initially, but then... dust.

And to answer your question; no, I have no idea who can do the reaming.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Buy the reamer, use it, then list for sale in the SASS Classifieds.

How hard is it to push a jacketed bullet through the cylinder throats? 

OLG 

[G W Wade]

On a recent project, I found a man on the Cast Boolit website.    Doug Guy in North Carolina.. Can be found there or on Facebook.  GW

[Pat Riot]

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Buy the reamer, use it, then list for sale in the SASS Classifieds.

How hard is it to push a jacketed bullet through the cylinder throats? 

OLG 

I haven't tried a jacketed bullets as I only load moly coated lead from Bear Creek Supply. I buy them sized at .452". They don't push through without force.

They all measure at .451"

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Allow me to be suggestive.  Just arbitrarily reaming your “cylinders” to 4515 May well accomplish nothing.  Or make it worse.  Ruger is famous for undersized Cylinder “Throats”.  I finally figured out you were actually talking about the throats.

 

Before considering throat reaming you need to slug the bore.  Then select the bullet for the land diameter plus one or 1.5 over land diameter.  Usually, 4515 is workable, but best check.  Then add a forcing cone.  Most gun plumbers prefer an 11 degree cut for ease of bullet entry and alignment.

 

In my sordid working past, I did throats for 10 bucks a hole and another 10 bucks for the cone.
 

If the throat is correct, your bullet of choice should go thru the throat with a light tap from a pencil.

[Pat Riot]

1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Allow me to be suggestive.  Just arbitrarily reaming your “cylinders” to 4515 May well accomplish nothing.  Or make it worse.  Ruger is famous for undersized Cylinder “Throats”.  I finally figured out you were actually talking about the throats.

 

Before considering throat reaming you need to slug the bore.  Then select the bullet for the land diameter plus one or 1.5 over land diameter.  Usually, 4515 is workable, but best check.  Then add a forcing cone.  Most gun plumbers prefer an 11 degree cut for ease of bullet entry and alignment.

 

In my sordid working past, I did throats for 10 bucks a hole and another 10 bucks for the cone.

It was recommended to me to ream the throats at .4525 for .452" bullets, not .4515.

 

I think you're right, I think slugging the bore might be the next step. 

[Pat Riot]

2 hours ago, G W Wade said:

On a recent project, I found a man on the Cast Boolit website.    Doug Guy in North Carolina.. Can be found there or on Facebook.  GW

Not being a member of Cast Boolits or Facebook makes contact difficult.

[Sedalia Dave]

Why buy when you can rent. Its not that hard to do yourself when you have the right tools.

 

https://4drentals.com/product/45-long-colt-throating-cutter/

 

 

[Pat Riot]

6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Why buy when you can rent. Its not that hard to do yourself when you have the right tools.

 Excellent! Thank you Sedalia Dave, This is a great idea. $36 beats the heck out of >$200 

 

EDIT:

I think I will do a test tonight with some pure leads .45 caliber balls to see what the ramp and bore measure and if  the cylinder restriction is smaller than the bore I think I will contact these folks for a reamer rental.

[G W Wade]

12 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Not being a member of Cast Boolits or Facebook makes contact difficult.

Yah, it is. I wasnt with Cast Boolits either but refuse FaceBook       GW

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I reamed my OMV .44 throats to .4305 and went to 11* forcing cone.

Made a big difference in accuracy. 

What weight bullet are you using?

I run 240gn LRNFP moly-coat from Bear Creek. 

Ruger's like heavier bullets.

OLG

[Pat Riot]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I reamed my OMV .44 throats to .4525 and went to 11* forcing cone.

Made a big difference in accuracy. 

What weight bullet are you using?

I run 240gn LRNFP moly-coat from Bear Creek. 

Ruger's like heavier bullets.

OLG

I run 205's and  255's. Mostly 205's.

 

Oh, and I run them 800-900 fps - No light loads.

[Pat Riot]

10 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I reamed my OMV .44 throats to .4525 and went to 11* forcing cone.

Made a big difference in accuracy. 

What weight bullet are you using?

I run 240gn LRNFP moly-coat from Bear Creek. 

Ruger's like heavier bullets.

OLG

Did you cut your own forcing cone? How hard is that to do?

[Sedalia Dave]

19 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Did you cut your own forcing cone? How hard is that to do?

 

https://4drentals.com/products/tool-rentals/revolver-forcingcone/

 

Not hard at all

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Make sure you get the correct taper. They offer 45 caliber forcing cone reamers in angles other than 11 degree.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

25 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Did you cut your own forcing cone? How hard is that to do?

Easy

One was way to small. The other didn't take much.

OLG 

[Major Bill]

Joe West had cleaned up my Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt. Passed on my 38sp to do the same. We are in north GA

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

9 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I have a Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt that could use some accurizing. I also have an original Vaquero that always has 1 flyer. 
Both gun’s cylinder measure at .451” using a digital caliper. I don’t own pin gauges. 
 

I was going to buy a reamer, pilots and tee handle from Brownells and ream the cylinders to .4525” myself, but after pricing them I wondered if I could find a gunsmith to do them for me at a reasonable rate. 
I am having zero luck locally and the few that I found online that did this have retired or stopped offering the service. I figure $80-$100 beat a $220 investment in a tool I will use twice. 
 

Anyone know a gunsmith that will ream my cylinders if I mail them to them at a reasonable rate?
 

Thank you

Get in touch with Shotgun Boogie 

OLG 

[Pat Riot]

I have decided that tomorrow I am contacting this 4D Rentals and I am going to get the throat reamer and the forcing cone tool and do my guns myself. Everything I have read says 11 degrees is the angle to go with so I am going to give it a shot…pun intended. 
 

Thank you @Sedalia Dave

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I have rented from them. I reamed all of my 44-40 Uberti pistols just so they would all be the same chamber size. Did the forcing cones also, and they varied quite a bit. Just make sure you read the directions if you haven't used a reamer before or you may end up buying those reamers after all.

["Big Boston"]

IMO, revolver theory is such that the first and most important step is to determine the groove diameter of the barrel. The cylinder throats should not be smaller than the groove diameter. Neither should they be much larger. 

 

In my experience, bullet diameter can be about 0.001" under groove diameter, and it still will/may work OK. Much under that, it may give you grief. Most, but not all barrels are a tad on the too big side. 45 Colt aside, most cylinder throats are too large.

 

Depending on your skill with rudimentary tools, cylinder throats can be honed out with emery and a mandrel, within limits. A couple of 0.001" is the limit. I've used this to match the odd undersized throat. 

 

I have a 45 LC Vaquero, the groove diameter is 451, and so are the throats, it works very nicely with 451 bullets. 452 will work as well. It ain't broke, so that's the way she'll stay. 

 

I have a 357 Colt, the groove diameter is 354, and the throats are 360, it is a batch to get a load that will work. Painted bullets are it's friend. 

 

BB 

[Warden Callaway]

3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

Depending on your skill with rudimentary tools, cylinder throats can be honed out with emery and a mandrel, within limits. A couple of 0.001" is the limit. I've used this to match the odd undersized throat. 

 

The throats in my Colt SAA 38WCF made in 1996 were too tight. A 401 jacketed bullet wouldn't slip through.  I could see reamer marks in the throats.  I took a dowel - 3/8 I think - and with very fine emory cloth,  pushing in and out, blurred the reamer marks. When the marks were evenly gone,  I polished the throats.  The 401 jacketed bullets would slip through. 

["Big Boston"]

26 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

The throats in my Colt SAA 38WCF made in 1996 were too tight. A 401 jacketed bullet wouldn't slip through.  I could see reamer marks in the throats.  I took a dowel - 3/8 I think - and with very fine emory cloth,  pushing in and out, blurred the reamer marks. When the marks were evenly gone,  I polished the throats.  The 401 jacketed bullets would slip through. 

 

That will work. There is a bit of "feel" to the process, DIY, not factory production. 

[Pat Riot]

14 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I have rented from them. I reamed all of my 44-40 Uberti pistols just so they would all be the same chamber size. Did the forcing cones also, and they varied quite a bit. Just make sure you read the directions if you haven't used a reamer before or you may end up buying those reamers after all.

Not sure what you mean by the last sentence. If you mean I may damage the reamer and have to pay for it, there is always that possibility. I have done plenty of metal work and have done lots of tap and die work. I am pretty savvy so I believe I will do just fine. 
 

Now if you mean that I will like doing it so much that I will buy a set of reamers I highly doubt that. 

[Pat Riot]

Okay, I took a 255 grain Bear Creek Supply RNFP bullet and tapped it into the forcing cone until flush with the flats of the barrel on each gun and did some measurements. I did the same at the muzzle. I also tapped a .490” lead ball into the forcing cone to see what the “mouth” of the forcing cones measured. I tried using a .451” ball to take land measurements but that was a useless waste of a couple of balls and a bit of my patience. 
 

Anyway, this is what I have come up with:

The averages are from 3 measurements.

RUGER NEW VAQUERO - averages

Mouth of forcing cone: .464”

Lands: .4425”

Grooves: .4495”

Start of forcing cone: .464”

Cylinder throats: .451”

Muzzle measurements

Lands: .4425”

Grooves: .4505”

 

RUGER VAQUERO - averages

Mouth of forcing cone: .4685”

Lands: .443”

Grooves: .4505”

Start of forcing cone: .4685”

Cylinder throats: .451”

Muzzle measurements
Lands: .4425”

Grooves: .451”

 

I have been shooting .452” bullets

 

So, as you can see these measurements appear to be different from what I have assumed and read for years that lands are usually .451” and grooves are usually .001”-.002” larger. 
 

I decided to also measure the muzzle because I have read the “Rugers are notorious for tightening the barrel too much to align font sights and compressing the threads and bulging the barrel at the frame causing a restriction.” Thus causing accuracy issues. As you can see above this is not the case. 
 

Now I am not sure what to do…

1. Since I have a boatload of .452 bullets would it make sense to try and use a Lee Bullet Sizer to .451” on my bullets?

 

2. Should I go ahead and ream the cylinder throats anyway?
 

3. Should I also go ahead and do the 11 degree forcing cone taper? The mouth of the forcing cones is >.460”

 

This is a good learning experience. 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Can you not hit a trash can lid at 15 feet, i.e., minute of SASS?  Based on your measurements I would not mess with it.  If 11 degrees was "magic" every gun manufacturer would be using it.  Then the gurus would claim 12 is the way to go.  Why would you ream the cylinder throats.  They are dead on at .451.

[ShadowCatcher]

Not sure if this will help, but I used pure lead round balls (.485 or so) from my local black powder gun shop,

and then measured all 3 of my Colt cylinders by pushing through from back to front using a wooden rod and

hammer.  This would also work to find barrel inner measurements if you want, although you'll want to go

in from the muzzle.

 

All my Colt cylinders measure .454 +/- .0005 or there about, so I switched to using .454 lead bullets vice .452 like

I always used in my Rugers.  Accuracy was improved to 1 hole cloverleaf groups at 20 yds using Unique at around

730 f/s.  These are 250 gr RNFP from Desperado Bullets.

https://cowboybullets.3dcartstores.com/45-cal-250-grain_p_26.html

 

No idea what the barrel diameter is, but that didn't seem to matter since I couldn't hold more accurately if I had to!

All of them have the forcing cone cut to 11 degrees to eliminate most leading, and that really works as seen

at cleanup time after a few hundred rounds.  I suspect that as long as the forcing cone is co-axial and smooth,

it should not perturb accuracy much, and may help.

 

Hope this helps . . . .

 

SC

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Shoot'em

You're try'n to 'fix' what ain't really 'broke'.

OLG 

 

[Pat Riot]

12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Shoot'em

You're try'n to 'fix' what ain't really 'broke'.

OLG 

 

I was thinking the same…now. 
 

I am really glad I just measured these guns. Like I said, it was a good learning experience. 
 

I may try sizing some bullets to .451” just for grins. Or maybe buying some to try. 
 

I will say that with the .45 ACP cylinder in my RNV the .451 FMJ rounds are pretty danged accurate. 
 

29 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Can you not hit a trash can lid at 15 feet, i.e., minute of SASS?  Based on your measurements I would not mess with it.  If 11 degrees was "magic" every gun manufacturer would be using it.  Then the gurus would claim 12 is the way to go.  Why would you ream the cylinder throats.  They are dead on at .451.

Yes, I agree…now. 

 

I like to squeeze the best accuracy I can from every gun. Mostly because I need all the help I can get when shooting SASS. 
Quite honestly I am not a great pistol shooter. I am about average. 
 

 

 

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HELP AND GUIDANCE ON THIS.

 

But now SD has ignited a fire for me…my next steps…testing my S&W revolvers in .38 and .357. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Get a tight fitting bore mop and put it in a drill motor.

Then polish the chambers and throats using what ever compound have handy.

OLG 

[ShadowCatcher]

2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

<SNIP>

 

 

I like to squeeze the best accuracy I can from every gun. Mostly because I need all the help I can get when shooting SASS. 
Quite honestly I am not a great pistol shooter. I am about average. 
 

<SNIP>

I understand that full well.  When I switched from Rugers to Colts a few years back I did a major reloading exercise to find the most

accurate Colt .45 load for those pistols.  I used new Starline brass, Desperado .454 dia bullets (see previous about throat diameters),

and loads using Trail Boss, Unique, Bullseye, WW231 and Titegroup.  Those were all I had, so that was my choices.

 

I built ladders (.2 gr charge increments) from least to near-max powder charge and tested everything in all three guns at 20 yds over

sandbags.  Several of them I abandoned before even getting past half of maximum load as they were just not grouping, but more like

shotgun patterns.  The loads with Unique showed the best behavior, and by 6.8 grs I had a load that shot as good as I could hope

for at a measured 730 f/s.  Going hotter didn't seem to improve anything, so I stuck with that loading and so far it's been the best.

 

My old loads with the Rugers were using Trail Boss and .452 bullets, at around 600 f/s. 

 

This kind of load development can be fun, but frankly it can also get pretty tedious, as I recently discovered trying to

build match ammo for my 5.56, using 68 gr and 77 gr bullets.

 

 

[Pat Riot]

40 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

This kind of load development can be fun, but frankly it can also get pretty tedious

Yes, it can. Especially when primers and powder are scarce. 

[ShadowCatcher]

2 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Yes, it can. Especially when primers and powder are scarce. 

That's why I'm sorta on hiatus . . .  that and still recovering from COVID, so I'm on O2 and don't want to be near fire!

 

Ordered a brick of primers from Midway in October, just got refunded after them going walkabout in Spokane Wa. around Oct 18th!

 

Keeping my eye out though - need to develop a load for 9mm 135 gr tapered conical for play, probably using Bullseye.

I already loaded some 1000 .45 per my new recipe, and had some 1500 of the old .452 that the rifle is fine with.

 

Ah well, someday we will be back to living in the land of plenty . . . .

 

SC

 

 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

21 minutes ago, ShadowCatcher said:

That's why I'm sorta on hiatus . . .  that and still recovering from COVID, so I'm on O2 and don't want to be near fire!

 

Ordered a brick of primers from Midway in October, just got refunded after them going walkabout in Spokane Wa. around Oct 18th!

 

Keeping my eye out though - need to develop a load for 9mm 135 gr tapered conical for play, probably using Bullseye.

I already loaded some 1000 .45 per my new recipe, and had some 1500 of the old .452 that the rifle is fine with.

 

Ah well, someday we will be back to living in the land of plenty . . . .

 

SC

 

 

 

 

Give Blue Dot a go. 

Trust me on this....

OLG