Need Help With Heat Loss

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

My wife is a member of the Tennessee Federation of Garden Clubs.  Today, she attended a board meeting at their headquarters in Knoxville.

Their HQ building is Racheff House and Gardens, built in the late 1920s as the home of the owner of a steel works.

They are facing a heating bill of over $4000.00 per month. This for a building that is not occupied and the heat is left on a low temperature most of the time.

They have replaced the thermostat and had the heater checked.  They do not think that there are any holes in the wall or roof. I doubt that the building is insulated.

I suggested that they get a thermal image to see where it is loosing heat, so of course they asked me how to do that.

I need your help:  what sort of camera is required for this, and can one be rented?

 

Thanks,

Duffield

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

How do they heat?

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

I suggest thermal underwear ..... for everyone ...   

[Linn Keller, SASS 27332, BOLD 103]

Looks like Home Depot and Lowe's up here in the Yankee North  both rent them.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

This is it?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Racheff_House#/media/File:Ivan-racheff-house-tn1.jpg

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

check with the local fire departments.  Many of them now carry thermal cameras for use when searching for victims in smoke filled enclosures.

 

You could always present it as an opportunity for them to have a bit of training.  Win-Win situation

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

How do they heat?

It is electric.  I am told that the furnace is running constantly, and they have replaced the control box and the thermostat.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

How many Sq ft?

What's the heater voltage. How old?

Any change of converting to NG or LPG?

Electric heat is the most expensive. 

OLG 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

How may square feet is the place and what is the charge per Kwh?

An investigation to ensure their building is the only one on the meter would be in order as well.

If the building infrastructure allows it, it may be cost effective to switch heating methods.

A contractor able to blow in some insulation, roof, exterior walls may be worthwhile investigating.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

LOTS of places where heat leaks out. Doors and windows are main culprits. Windows especially. 
 

Insulation in the attic and drapes/curtains over windows are very cost effective, and stuffing insulation at the top of the foundation and floor joists. 

[John Kloehr]

A heat pump went out last winter on a building, it switched over to full electric.

 

Bills were $350 a month, for about 1500 square feet. A heat pump would have cost less.

 

$4,000 a month? No way is Racheff House is that big.

 

I would check if the existing heaters can even generate such a bill.

 

And I would check other energy use, like a driveway heating system.

 

And I would also look for big air leaks in the building or ductwork. Here is one local source for you:

 

https://www.volunteermold.com/services/thermal-imaging/

 

I have no experience with the company, so check the reputation. Does not sound like a very expensive service, not compared to that power bill.

 

[John Kloehr]

As to renting the camera... I suggest hiring a company that knows how to use the tool and interpret the results. Pay for some expertise.

[John Kloehr]

Just thinking some more.

 

64 degrees is a workable minimum for human occupancy.

 

But the place is not occupied, so purge all water systems, water heaters, etc. Set heat to 45 to protect the building from freeze damage.

 

But if the roof needs to be warm to melt snow and prevent ice dams... Keep an eye on changes in case you need to turn the heat back up. There might be a reason.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

Thanks to all of you for the responses.  I will forward them to the Club's board.

I really like the idea of hiring someone who knows what they are doing, I am out of my depth here.

 

Duffield

[Pat Riot]

Here’s a business in Knoxville that does thermal imaging for the reasons you’re concerned about. 
 

https://www.volunteermold.com/services/thermal-imaging/

[Cholla]

Electric heat is the absolute most expensive way to heat. Surely you have natural gas there. How much insulation is in the walls and attic? Many older homes had little to none or the insulation has settled and is ineffective. Are the windows single-pane? Glass is a very poor insulator and a great deal of heat loss can pass right through them.

Thermal imaging cameras are not hard to read. They show the image in a band of colors and there should be a scale showing the temperatures. Blue/purple is colder and yellow/red is hotter. In heating season look for the yellows and reds. You can even buy them that fit right on your smart phone.

Ductwork can fall apart or come loose.

Being as you are non-profit, reach out to the local utility and see if they can do an inspection to see where you are wasting energy. Many companies have funds just for this type of thing.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

6 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

How do they heat?

I'm a great believer in solar panels.  My winter heating bill went from over $400.00 and month to an average of $51.00 plus my lease cost of $123.00

 

In Spring and Fall it drops down to around ten, and in the summer I get rebated for generating power and selling it back to the power company even with the A/C running almost full time.  That system has often run high enough to cover the lease cost, too. and that includes four high efficiency electric space heaters which also cuts my gas bill considerably.

 

I have a natural gas furnace and water heater in my house, a 220 volt large space heater and tree room size heaters and an electric water heater in the workshop.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Are they heating the green house?

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

6 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Are they heating the green house?

They do not have a green house.  There is a barn that they use for making floral designs, but it is not heated.

I believe that there is a large hole somewhere, and they are trying to heat the Northeast side of Knoxville.

Thus the desire for thermal imaging.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

I suggest reaching out to the UT engineering school. They have the equipment and might turn this into a student design project. 
 

TVA should also be able to help. 
 

I’ll try and find phone numbers. 
 

A monthly bill that big sounds like electric resistance heat that is constantly on. 
 

 

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

They do not have a green house.  There is a barn that they use for making floral designs, but it is not heated.

I believe that there is a large hole somewhere, and they are trying to heat the Northeast side of Knoxville.

Thus the desire for thermal imaging.

   Instead of the expense of thermal imaging, use an infrared thermometer with built in laser. Get them at Lowes for 50bucks.

   Draw a quick floor plan of the bldg including windows and doors. Go room by room and take readings in the center of the room and write it down. Take temperatures of each window from the inside and write it down. Take temperatures at each register(where the heat comes out) and write it down. In addition, intermittently take temperatures along the exterior walls. This will tell you where insulation is missing if any. Take temperatures of the returns as well and note them on the floor plan. 

  Things to look for:

*If you have attic space, check for insulation. It takes a lot.

*Does the thermostat indicate the unit is operating in em heat?

*Compare last year's electric bill with this year's bill. If it's a big change, something is going on with the unit. It may be calling for heat/cool at the same time. 

*Sometimes it costs more to run the unit at lower heat temperatures because the unit has to run more to keep up, dipping it into em heat mode. I did an extensive analysis a couple years ago to check the efficiency of a programmable thermostat that turns the heat off or really low when the office is not in use. The bills were considerably higher because the unit had to catch up.

Feel free to PM or call me if you need anything.

[Sedalia Dave]

There is something seriously amiss that a competent electrician should be easy to find.

The state average for commercial electricity is about $0.103 per KWH. To rack up a bill of $4000 dollars would require the house to use a total of 334,452 amps over a 30 day period. This breaks down to 220 VAC circuit pulling 253 amps continuously all month long. That is an obscene amount of electricity and 50 amps more than what the service panel is rated for unless the house is set up for an unusually large electrical load.  Residential rates are about $0.07 per KWH so the load would have to be a continuous 360 amps at 220 VAC. It practically unheard of for a home to have that much electrical service capability.

 

As you can see by the above numbers something is seriously amiss. There is no way a 220 VAC heat system can use $4000 of electricity a month. Even a highly inefficient residential system would only pull about 100 amps at full load. Yet by the above numbers the system would have to use 2 1/2 times that much electricity 24 hours a day continuously all month long.  

 

First thing I would have checked is the electric meter. I have seen two fail in such a way that they were racking up significantly more KWH than were actually used. Turn in a service call and be there when the technician arrives. Explain what you are seeing and work with him to verify the accuracy of the meter. Ask nicely and the technician should be able to tell you how much current the heat is pulling by checking the current load with it on and with it off. If the house has 220 service record the load for each hot leg. If there is no issue with the meter the electrician you call next will need this information.

 

If the meter checks out next make sure someone isn't tapped into the system and stealing power. Because the place isn't occupied I would be easy for an adjoining property to be stealing electricity when no one is around. Put a lock or tamer seal on the service panel. Turn off the breakers for all outside outlets. Put a tamper seal on the breaker box cover. Scotch tape makes an effective tamper seal Just put a small piece between the cover and the box. Doesn't take much

Check it at least weekly to verify that everything is OK. Because you are going to have to call an electrician anyway. Explain the problem to them and have them do a detailed inspection. If you find any suspicious wiring call the authorities. Those that steal electricity are usually in the illicit drug business and you don't want to confront them. 

 

Have the electrician check the load pulled by each circuit in the house. They'll know if a circuit is pulling more electricity that it should. Besides the heat, the elements in an electric hot water heater can fail and draw an excessive amount of electricity. Refrigerators and freezers can also fail in such a way as to use excessive amounts of electricity. 

 

Even if all the appliances in the house are bad they still don't add up to the volume of electricity that house is using.  My bet is a bad meter. 

 

 

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

Did KUB recently replace the meter?  That could cause things to go seriously awry. 
 

You have my phone number if you’d like me to talk with your wife and explore ideas. 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

We will be replacing windows and doors at the cabin, as well as insulating and sheetrocking the walls...as they are block.

It works well in the spring and summer...but being we will be living here through early-mid winter, it needs the upgrade.

We will most likely spend $3k to get it all done, but will be worth it in the long run.

I go all Spring untill late Oct.on the propane wall heater barely moving.

Sept to Oct uses about 20%...

 

Put the cost into insulating windows and door jambs....insulate roof and wall where you can.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Maybe the meter is defective.

[Texas Lizard]

On 11/8/2021 at 5:53 PM, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

Thanks to all of you for the responses.  I will forward them to the Club's board.

I really like the idea of hiring someone who knows what they are doing, I am out of my depth here.

 

Duffield

If the windows are a big problem....Take some 2x2s and make a storm window covered with plastic wrap and fit them inside...Could be very use able for the winter...The idea is old fashion but might get you threw the winter...

 

Texas Lizard

[largo casey #19191]

I just bought the house next door to me.The whole house was moved in here in the 60's.It still has the old floor furnace in it.I plan on putting monoxide sensors in.

I dont believe the gas bill was that much.Cute house.Bought rite.

                                                                                                                            Largo