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Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter...


Tennessee williams
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   I see a lot of misuse of the term "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter". It seems to me atleast this is the first go-to to explain away a call. An example:

  On a social media page there was a wtc thread about a hammer not being fully down on a revolver. The shooter finished his shooting string with the revolver and it was found the hammer was not fully down after reholstering. Many many of the first calls were a no-call. That's not really the point of this post. The point was some of the reasoning. There was a lot of "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter". Now this wasn't just from very new shooters using the term. Atleast one was an RO instructor.

   Now there was no doubt the hammer was back. They doubted the reason why it was back. 

  Is it just me, or do yall often see the overuse/misuse of this term as well?

Edited by Tennessee williams
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In my opinion, benifit should go to the shooter.

So...if hammer is not down for any other reason than a broke gun, cal te SDQ.

 

Problem with WTC on pages like they are? You are not usually getting the correct chain of events. Getting only the op's perspective.

 

Follow the rules as they are written.

Don't LOOK for ways to penalize someone, but follow rules.

We have a TO and 3 spotters just for that reason.

Bigger matches have chain of command...

 

When rules are not heeded, we are bound to perpetuate the need for WTC pages;)

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53 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Right ... Like the benefit of a doubt regarding shotgun belt locations...

Well...you know, that just isn't something I want to check for!:ph34r:

I mean, seriously, my bellybutton has gotten lower as I age...not higher!!!

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This an outgrowth of people scoring and penalizing (or not penalizing) on their "feelings"

It felt like it was unsafe (I don't know if he broke it; but did you see how close he came to the 170?) so we need to issue a penalty.

It doesn't feel unsafe (we holster all the time with empty guns - as long as it was empty - what difference does the hammer position make?) why do you want to penalize.

 

Things either ARE or they are NOT - your opinion, your feelings or the circumstances that created the OBJECTIVE observable transgression have zero to do with the debate.

Was the hammer back on a pistol within a holster?  Objective, visually verifiable?  Then assign the earned penalty and move on.

 

 

 

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I try to know the rules as well as most folks. But I must say that once in a while I find that some things are not as they were originally written. I still have a fair grasp of the reasoning behind many of the rules. There are some things that are “Cut and Dried”. Like Creeker said, the hammer is either back or it isn’t……. well most of the time anyway. I did see one that caught on the holster hammer thong and was not all the way down. I used my discretion as the T.O. to make it a “No Call”, but that was a very rare situation. IMO, and I always tried to stress it in my classes, a good T.O. should be able to know when to use some discretion and THAT IS SELDOM. For example, the Shotgun belt rules are kinda, sorta, somewhat specific but IMO there are times when some discretion should be used. A Short waisted women with a generous Bosom can have a very difficult time using a Shotgun belt if she is forced to have one that hugs in close to her tummy. IMO penalizing her for shells that are tilted out a bit so that she can get at them is not in the spirit of why the rule was written. It doesn't give her an advantage, it just allows her to play the game. It's not the same as some guy that is wearing his shotgun belt like a Bra up under his arms where he can grab the shells and throw them in without even moving his hand away. There are things that occasionally require the T.O. to use a little common sense. Everything is not always “Black or White”. That does NOT give Carte Blanc to the T.O. to just be Flippant with the rules.

 

Snakebite

Edited by Snakebite
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I am well known for a willingness to consider "Spirit of the law" just as highly as letter of the law. 

And I admire Snakebites willingness to do the same.

Intelligent people should have the ability to make decisions with a bit of discernment. 

But IF you are going to open the Pandoras box of uneven application of the rules - you need to be able to calmly and clearly explain your justification to do so.

 

And who exactly is empowered to circumvent the rules based on their discernment instead of objective application of the rules must be tightly controlled.

 

The posse marshal/ TO at a 12 person match affects the behavior and possible match outcome of 12 people.

 

The 36 individuals in the same position at the Worlds or Nationals can affect the possible match outcome of one thousand.

 

And the likelihood of 36 individuals being on the same page subjectively is doubtful.

 

In the vast majority of the time - the OBJECTIVE application of the rules is the correct answer.

SUBJECTIVITY should be extremely rare and require agreement from multiple parties (TO, Posse Marshal, Match Director) before it should be allowed to be allowed to over ride the objective rule.

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1 hour ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Well...you know, that just isn't something I want to check for!:ph34r:

I mean, seriously, my bellybutton has gotten lower as I age...not higher!!!

The crap one gets if they question the position of one's SG belt... You know... Well come over and feel for my belly button hahaha...I just walk away shaking my head wishing I could B@#*h slap them...ahhh, the Cowboy Way:lol:

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

   I did see one that caught on the holster hammer thong and was not all the way down. I used my discretion as the T.O. to make it a “No Call”, but that was a very rare situation. 

   What was the situation with this?

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21 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

This is an outgrowth of people scoring and penalizing (or not penalizing) on their "feelings"

 

"Did the bullet hit the target or not?"

"I don't know."

"Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter."

 

Now the above is applied to most every rule of the game.  

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21 hours ago, Snakebite said:

some guy that is wearing his shotgun belt like a Bra up under his arms where he can grab the shells and throw them in without even moving his hand away.

OMG! This is somewhat funny. I saw this at a recent state match on a large pear-shaped male shooter. I assumed it was the only place the shotgun shell belt would fit! I can say for certain it wasn't going to fit down at his waist.

I actually check and see if I can stick a finger in my belly button. If it's iffy, I shove the belt down just a hair farther.

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3 minutes ago, Cholla said:

OMG! This is somewhat funny. I saw this at a recent state match on a large pear-shaped male shooter. I assumed it was the only place the shotgun shell belt would fit! I can say for certain it wasn't going to fit down at his waist.

I actually check and see if I can stick a finger in my belly button. If it's iffy, I shove the belt down just a hair farther.

Yep ^^^^^

I like the belt to hold the shells end slightly below the belly button. That seems to fit my reach correctly.

Also check between the holsters with 2 fists every time to be sure the spacing is correct. Since I wear my holsters on the front of my legs it is a good thing I am a "wide body" to ensure adequate room between them.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

So is it top of the shells that can't be above the belly button or the bottom of the shells that can't be above the belly button:ph34r:

 

You're too funny!

 

SHB pg 3

Quote

Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

 

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22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

So is it top of the shells that can't be above the belly button or the bottom of the shells that can't be above the belly button:ph34r:

I bet you could find a surgeon who would be willing to move your belly button up if you are willing to shell out the cash. 

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24 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I bet you could find a surgeon who would be willing to move your belly button up if you are willing to shell out the cash. 

 

Used to shoot with a plastic surgeon (Doc Tetons) that offered the service.

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On 11/8/2021 at 12:11 PM, Tennessee williams said:

   I see a lot of misuse of the term "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter". It seems to me atleast this is the first go-to to explain away a call. An example:

  On a social media page there was a wtc thread about a hammer not being fully down on a revolver. The shooter finished his shooting string with the revolver and it was found the hammer was not fully down after reholstering. Many many of the first calls were a no-call. That's not really the point of this post. The point was some of the reasoning. There was a lot of "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter". Now this wasn't just from very new shooters using the term. Atleast one was an RO instructor.

   Now there was no doubt the hammer was back. They doubted the reason why it was back. 

  Is it just me, or do yall often see the overuse/misuse of this term as well?

 

"When there is no doubt, there is no benefit"  Either the hammer was down or it wasn't.  A malfunction wasn't declared...

 

Then it turns out the OP got it wrong, and it should have read"...he was shooting gunfighter. He lost count dry fired his left pistol and started to cock his right pistol then stopped and put it away. It was not locked back, but it was not down."  


 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

So is it top of the shells that can't be above the belly button or the bottom of the shells that can't be above the belly button:ph34r:

On the off chance that you are serious...... it's the bottom. ;)

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48 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I bet you could find a surgeon who would be willing to move your belly button up if you are willing to shell out the cash. 

Shot with a fellow that did not have a belly button...lost it in a surgery.......it came up when I asked him to point to his belly button when someone questioned where he was wearing his SG belt. 

 

Now what?

 

Stan

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13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

On the off chance that you are serious...... it's the bottom. ;)

Naw, I posted it in reference to the shooter that said if he couldn't poke his belly button then he would push his shells down. I was pretty sure he was saying that he was making darn sure his shells weren't too high but just round about making sure he knew they could cover and trying to be humorous at the same time. I may have failed at that.

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1 hour ago, Cholla said:

OMG! This is somewhat funny. I saw this at a recent state match on a large pear-shaped male shooter. I assumed it was the only place the shotgun shell belt would fit! I can say for certain it wasn't going to fit down at his waist.

I actually check and see if I can stick a finger in my belly button. If it's iffy, I shove the belt down just a hair farther.

See...I am stuck...belly is getting rounder...but I have no wear to go higher...the shelf won't allow it!:wub:

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6 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Shot with a fellow that did not have a belly button...lost it in a surgery.......it came up when I asked him to point to his belly button when someone questioned where he was wearing his SG belt. 

 

Now what?

 

Stan

Stan buddy, I'd be lost without my belly button. I use it as a reference to place both my sg belt and my gun belt. 

   Tell him to treat it like a fallen target and shoot...err place where it used to be!

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1 minute ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

See...I am stuck...belly is getting rounder...but I have no wear to go higher...the shelf won't allow it!:wub:

It's not an uncommon problem. 

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46 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

"When there is no doubt, there is no benefit"  Either the hammer was down or it wasn't.  A malfunction wasn't declared...

 

Then it turns out the OP got it wrong, and it should have read"...he was shooting gunfighter. He lost count dry fired his left pistol and started to cock his right pistol then stopped and put it away. It was not locked back, but it was not down."  


 

Yeah, I always preface any comment on there or here by saying if it is as written. I can't see all of the comments on there now so I don't know what's going on with it. I know the OP said he was the TO and seen the hammer back. To me that's good enough to make a call I guess. I just don't get why all of "the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter" talk.

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I know this got derailed with belly buttons, but last night after a shower I was looking in the mirror.  I've always been slender except for that belly part that doesn't want to stay slim.  I noticed that when I "suck it in", the belly button actually raises vertically by 3 inches!  But I don't think I could hold it in for a whole match. :P

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8 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I know this got derailed with belly buttons, but last night after a shower I was looking in the mirror.  I've always been slender except for that belly part that doesn't want to stay slim.  I noticed that when I "suck it in", the belly button actually raises vertically by 3 inches!  But I don't think I could hold it in for a whole match. :P

Only have to suck it in for that little bit you're on the firing line. Outside of that you can wear it on your head.

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22 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yeah, I always preface any comment on there or here by saying if it is as written. I can't see all of the comments on there now so I don't know what's going on with it. I know the OP said he was the TO and seen the hammer back. To me that's good enough to make a call I guess. I just don't get why all of "the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter" talk.

Seems it is never actually "as written" these days, so I wait a day or so to get the rest of the story before commenting. By then there are enough comments that bring out the facts so I don't need to.

 

I think there are some that have an issue with the rules, and would rather overlook a violation because they don't believe the rule is correct. The latest example of a hammer not fully down after holstering an empty gun. Clear and obvious SDQ as per the rules. Some would question what is actually "unsafe" here and are looking for a way to not apply such a severe penalty?

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1 minute ago, Ranger Dan said:

Seems it is never actually "as written" these days, so I wait a day or so to get the rest of the story before commenting. By then there are enough comments that bring out the facts so I don't need to.

 

I think there are some that have an issue with the rules, and would rather overlook a violation because they don't believe the rule is correct. The latest example of a hammer not fully down after holstering an empty gun. Clear and obvious SDQ as per the rules. Some would question what is actually "unsafe" here and are looking for a way to not apply such a severe penalty?

Imo, hammer back any at all is unsafe because the gun hasn't been cleared yet. That's why it is a no call anywhere except on the firing line(between and including the loading and unloading table). It doesn't matter why it's back.

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8 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Seems it is never actually "as written" these days, so I wait a day or so to get the rest of the story before commenting. By then there are enough comments that bring out the facts so I don't need to.

 

I think there are some that have an issue with the rules, and would rather overlook a violation because they don't believe the rule is correct. The latest example of a hammer not fully down after holstering an empty gun. Clear and obvious SDQ as per the rules. Some would question what is actually "unsafe" here and are looking for a way to not apply such a severe penalty?

Also to me the OP said he seen the hammer back and verified with spotter to boot so it wouldn't matter imo how the story changed for it to get to that end result. I'm fine with a rule change or even an exclusion but til that happens it's a sdq. I do hope people wanting to change it remembers the hammer back on a rifle fiasco. It didn't turn out like everyone thought it would. 

 

Don't beat up on me too bad this weekend, my shoulder is hurtn.

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