CFE Pistol powder?

[Fretless]

Is anybody loading 38 special with Hodgdon CFE Pistol?  The starting load on the Hodgdon reloading data site (for a 105 gr bullet) is 5.2 grains.  Is that too hot for cowboy?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The amount of powder is irrelevant.  Look at the velocity and pressure.

 

P.S.  I just looked at the Hodgdon site.  The 105 listed is a jacketed bullet.  I would use the starting load for the 90 grain lead bullet for a 105 lead.

[Fretless]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

The amount of powder is irrelevant.  Look at the velocity and pressure.

 

P.S.  I just looked at the Hodgdon site.  The 105 listed is a jacketed bullet.  I would use the starting load for the 90 grain lead bullet for a 105 lead.

Thank you. 

Is the weight of the jacketing is in addition to the listed weight of the bullet?

[Snakebite]

A jacketed bullet will generally develop greater pressure and require a larger powder charge than the same weight lead bullet. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

9 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Thank you. 

Is the weight of the jacketing is in addition to the listed weight of the bullet?

Not sure I understand the question.  The bullet weight is the bullet weight.

["Big Boston"]

My criteria for loading for our game differs from most. I like to stay within some fairly tight parameters, tighter than what is needed. My response will reflect that, and you can in all likelihood vary considerably from published data, but in my experience velocities will not be that consistent.

 

First, jacketed data and cast bullet data vary considerably. As stated above, the jacket has more friction in the barrel and pressure and velocity are different for each bullet type. Also, the Hodgdon data for the 105 gr CEB Raptor is for defensive carry, lower pressure/velocity loads are not listed because at lower velocities the bullet will not work as designed. Below a certain velocity, even HP bullets will not expand.

 

The data for the 105 gr bullet with CFE Pistol starts at 5.2 grains, 833 fps and 14,000 PSI. And, as already stated, with a cast bullet, pressure will be less, but velocity will be more. That load would be fairly far removed from what the goal for cowboy ammo is. 

 

You post is a bit ambiguous. I assume your cast bullet is 105 grains, of some brand and has a certain shape with or without a crimping groove and an unspecified OAL. 

 

Hodgdon list data for a 90 gr lead cast bullet and a 125 gr lead bullet. The 125 gr data is for working loads, higher pressure and velocity than for what you need for cowboy work. The 90 gr data is more for plinking, closer to what a cowboy load would be. Therefore, interpolating data for your goal of a cowboy load, is pretty much a WAG. 

 

What is your goal? A 105 gr bullet at 950 fps? 750 fps? or absolute minimum power factor at about 600 fps. 

 

Could you please supply a few more details. Do you have any other powders? Picture of bullet. Hard or soft cast? Do you have a chronograph? 

 

CFE Pistol was designed to compete against Power Pistol. It is very stable and consistent at 9mm Luger pressures. Made to yield high velocities at low pressure. IMHO not a cowboy powder. Trail Boss, a common cowboy powder, has fairly high pressure for lowish velocity. 

 

I have used CFE Pistol, but not much. Here's the load I tried. 

 

Calibre	357 Magnum	Date Loaded	2018-03-13
Powder	CFE Pistol	Weight in Grains	6.5 (4L)
Bullet	Xmetal Comanchero 38 Hi Tek	Weight in Grains	125
Primer	CCI 550 SPM, CCI 500 SP	Loaded OAL	1.486
Case	R-P 357 MAGNUM	Weight in Grains
Times Loaded		Number loaded	10, 10
Rifle	BH 200	Barrel clean/fouled
Comments	CCI 550 = Av 1090, Es 89.1, Sd 33.9. Av 1071, Es 29.5, Sd 11.9 (repeat with warm ammo) -10 outside. CCI 500 = Av 1061, Es 63.7, Sd 26.1. Av 1041, Es 83.5, Sd 34.5 Note, 1 case developed a split. Lower velocity by a bit?

 

It would be my guess, once you have enough powder to get past powder position and reliable ignition, your velocity will be too high. You may also have leading issues. 

 

BB

 

[Fretless]

@"Big Boston" that's a very helpful answer.  If I can find a better suited powder I will use it.  This is just what I could get when I was low.  I'm starting to think it really might not do.

 

38 special.  I'm using poly coated TFP with no lube groove.  OAL is 1.48.  I'm not sure what the velocity is but it's more than bare minimum.  I was loading 3.2 grains of CleanShot.  Had to switch, and settled on 3.5 grains of tightgroup, and now I'm out of that.

[Jack Spade]

Do a search on google for 38 special SASS loads and you will get a ton of old threads that listed actual loads using dozens of different powders.  If you have a chronograph work up your own loads using the powders you can find.  Look at a powder burn rate chart, fast burning powders are for light loads, slow powders for magnum loads.  Most fast burning shotgun powders work well for what we do. 

["Big Boston"]

15 hours ago, Fretless said:

@"Big Boston" that's a very helpful answer.  If I can find a better suited powder I will use it.  This is just what I could get when I was low.  I'm starting to think it really might not do.

 

38 special.  I'm using poly coated TFP with no lube groove.  OAL is 1.48.  I'm not sure what the velocity is but it's more than bare minimum.  I was loading 3.2 grains of CleanShot.  Had to switch, and settled on 3.5 grains of tightgroup, and now I'm out of that.

 

Thanks for the clarification. As I walked down that road for a short time, I was interested in your post. I loaded light bullets in 38 Long Colt brass to try and overcome the "light charge weight in a large volume case" syndrome. That worked well, but there is only so much of a jump a revolver will tolerate before you loose some accuracy. I did abandon that, but the reason was I have a few 38/357 guns, (The old pair and a spare mentality at work) and wanted something that would shoot to POA.  I ended up using a wadcutter, a LEE 358-148-WC. It sits out of the case enough to be cowboy legal, and it's pretty easy to make it shoot to POA. Also tons of data for it as well. 

 

Don't get me wrong, if it can be made to work, the 90 to 125 gr bullets are a good way to go. Unfortunately, most data seems to want to run the bullet fast, in a attempt to mimic a magnum revolver or a 9mm pistol. 

 

Trail Boss looses it's advantage or niche when bullet weight gets too light. At the 70% or more loading density, required to get consistent ignition, velocity gets a bit high, IMHO. The answer or solution is to use a powder high(ish) in nitro-glycerine content. Bullseye works, but to be honest, it's a bit position sensitive, and back in the day, a tuft of fluffy stuff was used to remedy that. Stuffing filler into the case is a bit fiddly, and has some issues as well. Conventional thinking today tends to avoid that. That leaves the fluffy powders that occupy more space in the powder chamber than some other pistol powders.  

 

I'll quote Jack Spade; "Most fast burning shotgun powders work well for what we do."

 

The shotgun powders that I would prefer for this are in the family of fluffy flake powders. These include most of the "Dots", and some of the other fast burning shotgun powders. Red Dot is or can best be described as fluffy Bullseye. Unfortunately below a certain load density, it is a bit erratic, exhibiting some position sensitivity. I looked at a bunch of data, and if there is a theme, it is that of all the fluffy powders, 700X seems to be the most promising. In my experience, I had my best results with AA452/Trap 100. Depending on the lot, it was not overly position sensitive. It is long obsolete, and it's replacement, WST, doesn't always work the same. In the 45 Auto, it is nearly the same.

 

I'll now tread lightly into the ballistic fringe, with a few theories, some of my own, and some that a routinely bandied about. One is that for a light bullet, like a 90 gr one in a 38 Spl case, a primer alone will propel the bullet  out the barrel sufficiently to hit cowboy targets. This may require enlarging the primer flash hole. And as soon as you do that, small charges of powder added powder also ignite better and become less position sensitive. I fooled with this briefly, with good results. But going there is well out of most reloaders comfort zone.

 

History: Flash holes in boxer primed ammunition were a tad smaller to begin with. Most of the old depriming pins/punches were about 0.060" in diameter. The ones that were larger would occasionally get stuck.

 

 

IMO, back in the day, most flash holes were drilled, not punched as they are today, and it seemed like most manufacturers used a 1/16" (0.0625") drill bit. Today, flash holes are punched and tend to be a bit larger. The introduction of lead-free or "Green" primers brought about even larger flash holes.

 

Back to theory: If I were to recommend a size, for cowboy loads with light bullets it would be 0.100". This is the threshold size at which a small magnum pistol primer seems to be in equilibrium with the powder charge pressure, for a cowboy load. IOW, a load that does not exceed BP pressures.

 

For reference, or to establish legitimacy for the concept, I examined shotgun primers, conventional 209 ones and some of the older types like the * primers of Remington origin.  The flash hole in these varies from a small 0.065" up to 0.115" or almost 1/8". The flash hole in newer 209 primers tends to be covered, for use with ball or fine grained powder. The 209 primers with open flash holes were to be used with flake powder only. The anatomy of a shotgun primer is fairly basic, a large pistol primer in a flanged sleeve. The anvil is long and the internal volume, or dead air space is a lot more than the primer pocket of a small pistol cartridge.

 

Therefore, if pressures are kept below 10,000 psi, IOW within the normal shotgun pressure range, enlarged flash holes would not violate present ballistic standards. In addition, the powders I'd recommend would be those fluffy flake, fast burning shotgun powders. 

 

My research determined that enlarged flash hole were not dangerous, although they do affect ballistics. I briefly tested this theory, experimented with enlarged flash holes and the results were promising. The flash hole acts as an orifice, and if small enough, will create a temporary pressure valve or throttle for the primer explosion or flash. Enlarging the flash hole tends to limit the pressure in the primer pocket, or IOW, it equalizes the pressure between the primer pocket and the powder chamber. I tested with a 38 Special case and used a small magnum primer. When the flash hole was around 0.100" in diameter, the primer pocket pressure was near to what normal 38 Spl powder chamber pressure was.

 

I believe that to successfully use a light bullet in a 38 Special cartridge, you may have to match the brand of primer to the powder and/or experiment with the size of the primer flash hole.

 

I have a set of numbered drill bits, so I was able to go up in size in small steps. If you have a set of fractional bits I would start with a 5⁄64, a bit which is 0.078125" diameter. It will not enlarge the hole much, mostly it will uniform the hole. The next size in the fractional bits is 3⁄32, or 0.09375", followed by 7⁄64 or 0.109375" in diameter. Metric bits are a bit of an odd duck, even in Canada, but they are commonly available in 0.1mm increments. The numbered bits are more readily available, and are the ones to use IMO.

 

Numbered bits start at #80, which is 0.0135", and go in increments up to a #1 bit which drills a 0.228" diameter hole. They usually come in two sets, the first set is from #1 to #60, and the second set is from #61 to #80. The bits for enlarging flash holes are between #50 and #30, (0.070" to 0.1285").

 

My apologies if some of the reply lacks a bit of congruity, we had a power surge in the middle of posting, and a subsequent reboot did a number to the post.