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Inconsistent primer strikes


Johnny Knight

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Well, an update on the ongoing experiment.  Put 100 rounds through the pair of pistols, for this iteration, both guns had 15# Wolff springs.  Shooting Large Pistol CCI primers in mixed head, well used brass.  The primers look like they were old stock (lighter blue box).  97 rounds went out fine, 3 did not on the first trigger pull, but each fired on a second go around.  Seeing as how I can get springs for the same cost as a hamburger these days, I'm tempted to swap in 16# just to see the difference.  Not the most scientific process I know, but it's just a chance for more practice. 

Three Foot, I'm not sure on the measurement, but as noted above, there is definitely a different 'feel' between different manufacturers' 17# springs.

Regards,

Johnny

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Primers are manufactured under federal specs.

2 failures in 100,000 is call for rejections.

 

In our sport, guns are modified so far from original manufacturer condition.

Lighter springs, changing chamber dimensions and short stroking etc.

Any one of these can cause change of angle and light strikes. 

As an ammunition manufacturer and reloader, I would look in to the loading aspect of the ammunition before saying the primers are at fault.

 

Primers must be seated to the bottom of the cup.

If not, then the first firing pin strike will seat the primer to the bottom.

The second strike may or may not set the primer off.

When seated by the firing pin on first strike, the cup is deformed and may have moved the anvil in side of center where the second, third, etc. strike will not set the primer off.

Check the primer depth in the loaded rounds.

They should be below the case bottom.

Not flush with the case.

 

Most failure to fire primers are from weak springs, thumb dragging on hammer as it falls, thumb following hammer when released, hammer in frame dirty with lubricant oil/dirt.

 

18 years of loading commercially I had 1 round brought back do to primer not going off.

The custom was not upset because he explained his firing pin has broke.

 

I have had powder that would not ignite and replaced all the rounds loaded from that 8 pound keg.

But primer failure?

There are other issues at play.

 

Primers I used where in this order.... CCI, Remington, Federal then Wolf. (wolf are too soft and I crushed so many I will never use them again.

Primarily CCI and Remington.

I used Federal to trade for the other CCI and Remingtom.

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Thanks Cliff, I'll freely admit I don't claim any great expertise in reloading.  Although I've reloaded for years and haven't had any problems before now, it was almost exclusively loading for factory guns (mostly Glocks in .40 and .45).  So, figuring out how all the factors interrelate once you start going with a modified gun is where I'm trying to learn as much as I can.  I was paying attention to the thumb issue, since it has been mentioned several times in this discussion, and I'm not seeing any incidental contact.  Shooting duelist, my thumb has rolled off and away from the hammer by the time I fire (still slow on getting back to the hammer, since I'm still pretty new at this).  Based on what you've commented on, I am guessing the issue was most likely not setting the primers all the way down.  This last batch of reloads, I had gone lighter on the primer setting (still flush with back of case), thinking it would allow the firing pin to contact sooner, but I hadn't accounted sufficiently for the fact that would result in the force being absorbed seating the primer in deeper.  I'll be firmer on seating the next round of primers and see if that cures the problem. 

Regards,

Johnny

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6 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

3 did not on the first trigger pull, but each fired on a second go around.

 

2 hours ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Primers must be seated to the bottom of the cup.

 

6 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

I'm tempted to swap in 16# just to see the difference.

 

Primer firing on second strike is almost always a sign the primers were not seated properly.  15 pounds on a stock New Vaquero may be too light especially if the free spin pawl is slowing the hammer fall.  You don't need to keep buying more springs.  Simply add some washers on top of the spring and test it.

DSC_0005.jpeg

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Thanks Larsen!

Any idea on how many washers equate to adding the extra pound?  Been way too long since my mechanical engineering class to try to recall Hooke's law.  I guess alternatively, I just keep experimenting with one washer at a time....more practice.

Johnny

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OLG, Thanks for the suggestion on using factory ammo, but the reality is that I'll never shoot factory ammo with the guns.  It might be more accurate to say that I'm not just testing different springs in the guns, what I'm really doing is finding the springs that I like shooting that will reliably shoot the ammo I reload.  While I could grab a few boxes of factory ammo, shoot it to make sure that it works well in the gun and set some aside for matches, the reality is that I have about 1500 cases that I keep recycling as often as I can find primers, in order to get practice in.  I'm also reloading for a friend who is also just getting started with SASS, so he also is wanting to throw lead down range to get practice in.  So, ultimately I need to make sure I am reloading as consistently as possible to account for things like proper primer seating as Cliff pointed out above, then continue smoothing the action and trying different spring options until I get reliability with the ammo I'm loading.  Otherwise if I went with just factory ammo it would drive the cost up at least double, if not a good deal more, which would just lead to less practice.  Maybe I'm not catching what you are recommending?

Regards,

Johnny

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When I was loading for the Australian and Europeans who came to shoot matches in the USA, I ran in to the light strikes issue with some of them.

Most if not all where shooting Rugers.

I decided to include 6 of the washers like Pettifogger shows for quick fix for the light hammer springs some seem to have.

I do not know how many washers they would put in their guns but it solved the issue so they could shoot while here.

 

Larsen, thanks for the reminder.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks Larsen!

Any idea on how many washers equate to adding the extra pound?  Been way too long since my mechanical engineering class to try to recall Hooke's law.  I guess alternatively, I just keep experimenting with one washer at a time....more practice.

Johnny

Start with 2

OLG 

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Latest update, ran 100 rounds through the pair of pistols using 15# springs in each with no failure to fire issues.  As a side note, won the timing lottery and scored 2 bricks of federal magnum large pistol primers at the local bass pro!  More opportunity to experiment....

Johnny

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/31/2021 at 3:39 PM, Johnny Knight said:

OLG, Thanks for the suggestion on using factory ammo, but the reality is that I'll never shoot factory ammo with the guns.  It might be more accurate to say that I'm not just testing different springs in the guns, what I'm really doing is finding the springs that I like shooting that will reliably shoot the ammo I reload.  While I could grab a few boxes of factory ammo, shoot it to make sure that it works well in the gun and set some aside for matches, the reality is that I have about 1500 cases that I keep recycling as often as I can find primers, in order to get practice in.  I'm also reloading for a friend who is also just getting started with SASS, so he also is wanting to throw lead down range to get practice in.  So, ultimately I need to make sure I am reloading as consistently as possible to account for things like proper primer seating as Cliff pointed out above, then continue smoothing the action and trying different spring options until I get reliability with the ammo I'm loading.  Otherwise if I went with just factory ammo it would drive the cost up at least double, if not a good deal more, which would just lead to less practice.  Maybe I'm not catching what you are recommending?

Regards,

Johnny

I would never modify my guns w/o being sure it's not the ammo.

 

I let another shooter shoot my problem primer ammo. He had the same results.

 

Do you have any issue in the rifle (if same Cal.)?

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On 11/3/2021 at 12:02 PM, Johnny Knight said:

Latest update, ran 100 rounds through the pair of pistols using 15# springs in each with no failure to fire issues.  As a side note, won the timing lottery and scored 2 bricks of federal magnum large pistol primers at the local bass pro!  More opportunity to experiment....

Johnny

One very thin washer will usually take a revolver that is getting some ftf's to setting off all Federals and most of the others.

kR

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Hi Blast,

Sorry for the delay in responding, just back from a road trip without much internet.  The ammo shoots fine in the rifle and the second pistol.  Kid, thanks for responding, I'll pick up a couple of washers to add to my kit.  At the moment, it looks like the last round of polishing has resolved the issue, but I'll put some more rounds through this week as a warm up to the match this weekend out at Thunder River.

Regards,

Johnny

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1 minute ago, Kid Rich said:

I bought my washers at Home depot. They were stainless #32s I believe. Only about a dollar for a multi pack. The hole has to be drilled or filed so the spring strut will fit thru it.

kR

#10 AN are what you want.

No filing etc needed.

OLG 

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271223169_Rugershortenedtransferbar.thumb.jpg.7dc8c468b681fda15efb8910af469f71.jpg1790745926_VaqueroTransferbarpict.thumb.jpg.a1fcf133c1b8abae6d7d74005861fdcc.jpgJust a followup note to those who might be interested.  It appears the culprit wasn't the spring changes I've been doing.  In a separate thread I was asking about transfer bar heights because I noticed that one transfer bar was about 3/32" longer on one pistol than the other.  I noticed a couple of witness marks on the top of the transfer bar where it appeared the SBH hammer I had swapped out would occasionally clip the top of the longer transfer bar before striking the firing pin.  It appears that was resulting in an inconsistent strike on the firing pin accounting for the occasional soft hit on the primer.  After taking off about a 1/16th of an inch to bring it closer to length of my other pistol, (and a bit more polishing while I had it out), I haven't had any more FTF's with either Federal or CCI primers.  Attached is a photo of some random cases from the last 100 rounds I put through the pistol showing nice clean strikes with the 15# springs currently in the gun.

Thanks again for all the suggestions as I learn about the vaqueros!

Regards,

Johnny

 

primers after work on transfer bar 12-1-21.jpg

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