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An Electric Taxi


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1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

…and all this was happening in 1943…

 

I truly believe that in 2 decades we will see videos like this regarding Tesla automobiles. 

 

The early tesla cars did have a battery swap program, was quickly killed.  Not sure why.  
 

the problem with battery swaps is there is a lot hooked to the battery.   It’s more than just power cables. There are also heating and cooling lines.   

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If this is such a big deal, Why have I been watching them change the batteries in the forklifts in all the food plants i have worked in for the last 40+ years?

 

One plug and a hoist to put it in the rack, then plug it in the charger and check the water, several hours later it was ready to go.

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19 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

The early tesla cars did have a battery swap program, was quickly killed.  Not sure why.  
 

the problem with battery swaps is there is a lot hooked to the battery.   It’s more than just power cables. There are also heating and cooling lines.   

I guess I didn’t clarify. 
 

 

I truly believe that in 2 decades we will see videos like this regarding the old Tesla automobiles.

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Hertz? The company that went bankrupt then flooded the market with overpriced used cars thus, in a roundabout way, causing the prices of other used cars to rise instead of diminish.
That Hertz?

 

Screw Hertz!…and screw electric cars! 
Now morons that incessantly talk about their diets and eating habits now have another subject to blather on about with their range anxiety, charging issues and creative travel plans that revolve around charging stations and their logistical strategy of getting wherever they’re going on a daily basis. :angry:
 

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Good points Pat Riot!

How come the worshipers at the electric car altar never mention the tons upon tons upon tons of FOSSIL FUELS needed to generate the "zero emission" electricity to charge batteries?

Nor do they acknowledge the uncounted tons of toxic waste created to make the batteries for these "zero emission" vehicles?

The world has neither the science, technology or manufacturing ability to produce a viable alternative to the internal combustion powered vehicles at this time.

 

The lunacy of banning internal combustion engines before we have ANYTHING to replace even 20% of what they do is beyond stunning.

 

Telling the Americans that can barely afford a car today that they now have to scrap that car and buy one that costs $20k - $30k more for the lowest base model is not the action of a free country but a dictatorship.

 

Think we have inflation now? If trucks have to stop every 300 miles or so to swap batteries or for several hours to recharge, 3=4 times more trucks will be needed, the amount of fossil fuel consumed to charge said vehicles will skyrocket, prices will go out of sight, supply chains collapse. Or picture us without diesel electric trains or diesel powered container ships to move cargo? We'll end up making Venezuela look like a garden state.

 

sorry, I'll be quiet now........

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12 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

An idea before its time?

More like history repeating itself.

 

Electric cars were more popular than gas and diesel in the early days of the automobile and stayed that way until the gas and diesel engines became more reliable.  They were great commuter cars in urban areas and, since we lacked adequate and reliable roads connecting cities and towns, their shorter range wasn't an issue. 

 

Sounds a lot like the Tesla, doesn't it?  Great concept- but it's range and time limited by it's recharge rate. 

 

Gas and diesel both exceed its' range per charge/tank full by more than half and that doesn't take into consideration how long it takes to recharge one versus how long it takes to go by a pump and refuel.  I wouldn't want to try to drive one from Atlanta to Dallas.

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I don't understand the knee-jerk hate some people have for Electric Vehicles.  (EVs).  Are they a panacea? No. Do they fit every need as some people feel they must?  No.  As was pointed out above, 
 

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59 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

They were great commuter cars in urban areas and, since we lacked adequate and reliable roads connecting cities and towns, their shorter range wasn't an issue. 

 

 

And that is a niche that they are still suited to fill.  How of you have a commute of 200 miles each way?  How many have a commute of less than 50 miles each way?  My commute is 26 miles round trip 5 days a week.  About twice a month we take a drive just for fun, round trip about 120 miles.  

"OH!  But it takes so LONG to recharge!"  Well, anymore after about 2 or 3 hours of driving I'm ready for a bit of a break. Use the head, stretch my legs, get a cup of coffee.  Find a place, plug in, go have some coffee.  How many of you on a long trip will quickly fill up at the pump, then find a place to have a bite to eat?  

We leased ours because we could afford it and couldn't afford the over $5k in repairs to our 20 year old pickup.  The savings in fuel make up about 80% of the payment.  I "tanked up" on Friday, about $14 for about 150 miles of range.  In the old truck that range would now cost at least $45.    Or I can plug in to the 110 at home and get about 50 miles of range overnight for less than a buck.  

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Not knee jerk hate.  Just push back to the urbanites that think it's the greatest thing ever. 

 

Like you said, it's not the answer for everyone and makes much more sense for urban dwellers that don't travel.  A 50 mile overnight charge won't get me home 3 out of 5 days a week and wouldn't even get me to where I need to be 2 of those days.

 

I'm curious as to how the states are going to adapt to their popularity.

 

Road taxes are tied to every gallon of fuel sold.  Electric cars don't pay that tax at the pump, so every one sold is lost revenue for the state.  At some point, the environmental virtue signalling and making the tree huggers happy with incentives to buy the things is going to be out weighed by the lost tax revenue.

Edited by Smuteye John SASS#24774
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There won't be any lost tax revenue. They will just increase the gas tax, so that we poor slobs that still drive gas engines will have to pay more money, while they will ride for free.

 

Until the powers that be figure out a way to tax electricity, so that not only the people that are recharging their cars have to pay, but everybody else does too. That makes it fair, right? Everybody pays, even if you don't use it.

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32 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

A 50 mile overnight charge won't get me home 3 out of 5 days a week and wouldn't even get me to where I need to be 2 of those days.

 

 

That's "topping off."  Not being at 0 miles and going to 50.  Like when you have 2/3 of a tank and stop to fuel anyway.  Say I'm at 120 range, top off with 50 miles, so I'm up to (a theoretical) 170 miles.  Then I use 60 miles, top off with 50 miles worth of charge, so I'm up to  160 miles.  

 

35 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

Not knee jerk hate.  Just push back to the urbanites that think it's the greatest thing ever. 

 

Pushback against the dictates of the intelligentsia and the mobocracy I understand. 

 

But the constant "Well, it takes a gazillion gallons of fossil fuel to mine and process the copper for the electric transmission lines!" gets tiresome.  How about accounting for every drop of fuel that goes into making every washer, every gasket. every gas pump, for an internal combustion car, and also the fuel required to drill, pump, and transport the fossil fuels?  Oh, and account for the iron that goes into the tank cars, pipelines, and ships that transport the petroleum needed.    Too one sided.

 

Again, I'm not saying the EVs are a panacea that will solve all our problems.  But they do have the potential to fill a niche, and fill it well.  The answer to the tax issue is the same as it is now - factor in a tax on the power used.  It could be an "at the pump" tax on the charge stations in shopping centers and such, and a meter on the home Level 2 chargers.  Simple.

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There were electric cars/trucks back in the 19teens. Lead acid, very inefficient and long charge times. There were also steam cars.

For me it's ignore all the comments about charge time and distance. The amount of coal needed to run the utility plants, etc.

 

It's about the fact our electrical grind is undersized and old. My house has a 100 amp panel. The add a charging station and run AC etc I need to upgrade the panel and feed. The feed needs to be upsized. The system in my neighborhood would need to be upsized if we all went to EV. Then the city then the state.

 

No one talks about how to provide charging power to millions of EV's.

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For most homeowners the charging issue is a non issue.  Having lived with 2 ev’s and driving over 130k electric miles and had the electric cooperative interview me on how we did it, I have a little experience on the issue.   First charging can be done for the most part  at night when grid usage is low.    You do need a vehicle that can handle your daily miles in one charge.  I used to commute 90 miles per day and on some days do 140 mile trip.   A 32 amp charger on a 50 amp circuit provided a charge starting after 10 pm every night.  Even with a 100 amp panel you can probably make it work, just have to make sure to not turn on other big loads late at night. 
 

we drove about 3000 miles per month and it cost about $30-$50 more in electricity per month.  How did we do that?  Simple.  Changed to time of day service for our electricity.  We only charged at night on low rate.  Cars can be programmed to do this, so just get home and plug in. Car charges automatically at low time.  We paid premium rate about $.29/kwh from 5-10 pm and $.06 the rest of the day.  Same as the electric company.   Was pretty nice.  Now I no longer own an ev as I moved and now I routinely drive 125-250 miles in a day.   There are no current ev’s other than the $100k tesla long ranges that can do that in the cold at highway speeds.   Even those cars would struggle to hit 250 mile range at 70 mph and 15 deg f.   Plus there are few charge stations if things go wrong. 
 

now if you live in a apartment complex it all changes and fast chargers are a must.  I agree those can cause issues with the grid in that they use huge amounts of energy.   

Edited by Still hand Bill
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6 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

 

we drove about 3000 miles per month and it cost about $30-$50 more in electricity per month.

 

Say that would take about 120 gallons of fuel.  At today's prices that's almost $600. But we all know that EVs are more expensive to drive.

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10 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Say that would take about 120 gallons of fuel.  At today's prices that's almost $600. But we all know that EVs are more expensive to drive.

My ev’s replaced two TDI’s.  So it would have been about 70 gallons of diesel and at today $4/gallon, about $280/ month.  Funny thing is the emissions per mile for my ev’s where higher than my Tdi’s as Colorados electric was at about 65% coal.  Based on the calculators, that % of coal was equal to a car of about 35 mpg.    I did find that I drove less with an ev due to range issues, only 20k miles/year vs 30k in the tdi.  

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21 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

…and all this was happening in 1943…

 

I truly believe that in 2 decades we will see videos like this regarding Tesla automobiles. 

 

About this time Germany ( and maybe Italy) was suffering from a lack of petroleum and built a number of cars that ran on powdered coal.

 

I wonder why that didn't catch on.  :P  Oh, yeah, coal is an environmental disaster.  Also, it didn't work worth a dang.

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8 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I don't understand the knee-jerk hate some people have for Electric Vehicles.  (EVs).  Are they a panacea? No. Do they fit every need as some people feel they must?  No.  As was pointed out above, 
 

 

And that is a niche that they are still suited to fill.  How of you have a commute of 200 miles each way?  How many have a commute of less than 50 miles each way?  My commute is 26 miles round trip 5 days a week.  About twice a month we take a drive just for fun, round trip about 120 miles.  

"OH!  But it takes so LONG to recharge!"  Well, anymore after about 2 or 3 hours of driving I'm ready for a bit of a break. Use the head, stretch my legs, get a cup of coffee.  Find a place, plug in, go have some coffee.  How many of you on a long trip will quickly fill up at the pump, then find a place to have a bite to eat?  

We leased ours because we could afford it and couldn't afford the over $5k in repairs to our 20 year old pickup.  The savings in fuel make up about 80% of the payment.  I "tanked up" on Friday, about $14 for about 150 miles of range.  In the old truck that range would now cost at least $45.    Or I can plug in to the 110 at home and get about 50 miles of range overnight for less than a buck.  


 

Not to make little of your thought on taking a break while driving, I don’t have the patience, nor do I have the capacity to hold ANY beverage that I could consume for the three hours it would take to charge an EV enough to complete most trips I would take.:rolleyes: :o

 

For more than fifty years, I have driven 800 to 1,000 miles at a time when traveling, sometimes with other drivers, sometimes by myself. A half hour nap and a fistful of something nourishing and packed with energy and I’m on down the road! I wouldn’t drive a truck for a living today for love or money. Having to sit for eight or more hours to finish a run requiring only another two hours driving is beyond my capability.

 

Given the NASTY environmental conditions created by the acquisition of raw materials and the the manufacture of the batteries, not to mention the lack of ANY established disposal or recycling plan or protocols, and the amount of “carbon based” fuel required to mine, manufacture, transport, and charge these batteries, I’m not interested in promoting their existence.

 

Next! Artificially creating a demand for them by legislation, arbitrary regulation, and governmental interference with free markets, such as the blocking of pipelines and petroleum leases and the artificial inflation of fossil fuel prices by these activities and by taxation is offensive to me and unfair to the buying public!

 

 Finally!! If I had to wait for an hour or more for some damned EV to charge up when I am less than two hours away from my destination, I’d probably burn it to the ground and take a cab!!

 

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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4 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Not to make little of your thought on taking a break while driving, I don’t have the patience, nor do I have the capacity to hold ANY beverage that I could consume for the three hours it would take to charge an EV enough to complete most trips I would take

 

 

About 40 minutes from 12% to 85%.  Not 3 hours.   Drive about 2 to 3 hours, break for 45 minutes.  

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8 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

About 40 minutes from 12% to 85%.  Not 3 hours.   Drive about 2 to 3 hours, break for 45 minutes.  


On my motorcycle or any of the vehicles I generally travel in, I don’t break for more than ten minutes in 500 miles!  A stop at the pump and a dash to the bathroom, followed by a beverage and a snack and we’re back on the road. 
 

It might work, if in my journey they offered charging at points of interest to me, but the top of a mountain in the middle of a forest isn’t likely to provide any charging stations for some time to come.

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the big secret is battery life. Everyone thinks because it's Lithium they last forever. They don't. individual cells go bad. I just watched s video where a guys Tesla had a big drop in battery life after charging. Diagnosis said 3 or 4 cells were bad. Tesla won't replace cells you have to replace the entire battery pack. And it only costs $21,000 parts and labor.

 

There are start up companies who are now replacing cells instead of the whole system. But still $$$.

 

And let's not forget 61% of our electrical grid is powered by fossil fuels!. That would be coal, natural gas and petroleum.

No more hydro electric and no more nuclear.    Just millions of acres of solar panels and bird killing eyesores will solve the problem.

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2 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:


On my motorcycle or any of the vehicles I generally travel in, I don’t break for more than ten minutes in 500 miles!  A stop at the pump and a dash to the bathroom, followed by a beverage and a snack and we’re back on the road. 
 

It might work, if in my journey they offered charging at points of interest to me, but the top of a mountain in the middle of a forest isn’t likely to provide any charging stations for some time to come.

 

Don't do motorcycles.  Too many friends got wracked up .

 

I can go about 4 hours without a break.  A far cry from the 12 hours or more with only breaks for pee and petrol.  My wife with her back and hip issues is down to an hour and a half to two hours before she needs a significant break.

 

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SDJ, I think you atrributed something to my comment that was not its purpose. I do not, nor have I ever, claimed that ANYTHING manufactured in the US does not rely on electricity produced by fossil fuel. I object to the holier than thou "Oh My Gawd, if we don't ban all internal cvombustion engines RIGHT NOW, and go all electric, We're All Gonna Die!!" bunch. Yes, EV have a place, yes, eventually, when the technology catches up going electric would be good for the planet. But don't insult my intelligence by claiming an EV is Zero Emission. I want to see a neutral study on the comparison of emissions created to completely, ready to roll off the lot, manufacture say an F-150 and a Tesla S. Including the battery for the Tesla.

Edited by Clay Mosby
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Screen-Shot-2020-08-04-at-10.36.10-AM.png

 

China controls 80-90% of rare earth market, and that includes control of most of the cobalt required for EV battery production mined in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

 

Edit in anticipation: The chart above shows production. China has control of more than it nationally produces through trade agreements and treaties, and also outright ownership of mines and facilities in other countries.

 

1288015575_meme-electriccargreta.jpeg.62225f9473978d799178f3840bf8f5ea.jpeg

 

It's estimated that by the end of the decade, the U.S. will have three EV battery plants, compared to China's eighty-eight.

 

The idea of recharging during off-peak hours is great -- as long as there are a limited number of EVs charging during off-peak hours. When the power grid has to respond to EV-driven demands during off-peak hours, then it's no longer off-peak, is it? Add to that the increasing amount of power being generated from solar fields which can NOT support the off-peak demand, and the idea of phasing out generation based on non-renewable energy, and there's a fairly predictable crisis in the future.

 

Does anyone actually believe the U.S. government can build EV charging stations across the U.S. without ridiculous cost overruns and delays?

 

When the U.S. transitioned from horses to automobiles, it didn't require the government forcing people to give up their horses and buy cars. It didn't require the government preventing farmers from growing oats and hay to create a 'fuel' shortage to drive up the costs of riding horses, it didn't require the government building gas stations, it didn't require the government giving taxpayer money to automobile manufacturers and tax breaks to people buying cars.

Edited by Ozark Huckleberry
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1 hour ago, Clay Mosby said:

 

SDJ, I think you atrributed something to my comment that was not its purpose. I do not, nor have I ever, claimed that ANYTHING manufactured in the US does not rely on electricity produced by fossil fuel. I object to the holier than thou "Oh My Gawd, if we don't ban all internal cvombustion engines RIGHT NOW, and go all electric, We're All Gonna Die!!" bunch. Yes, EV have a place, yes, eventually, when the technology catches up going electric would be good for the planet. But don't insult my intelligence by claiming an EV is Zero Emission. I want to see a neutral study on the comparison of emissions created to completely, ready to roll of the lot, manufacture say an F-150 and a Tesla S. Icluding the bayttery for the Tesla.

 

 

Clay, I don't think I had quoted you in any of my responses, other than maybe lumping your comments in with others in general.  Notice that I have said that they are not the panacea claimed, just that I don't understand the knee-jerk hate of them and the "Well, until they are PERFECT for EVERY need, until they can go 1,000 miles on a single charge, while towing a 10,000 pound trailer uphill all the way, they are worthless" attitude so many seem to have.  I agree that the mandates to go all electric, not just cars but houses and industry, amount to Lysenkoist dictatorship.

I too would like to see a side by side, unbiased study of equivalent sized and purpose vehicles.  Not just the manufacture, but out to 10 years.  Make sure to include the emissions to drill, transport, refine - including the outgassing-, and transport again the petroleum for the Internal Combustion Engine vehicle.  So far all I have seen are things that take in all aspects of producing and running EVs v. the emissions of driving ICE vehicles.  Comparing parsnips to basalt.  

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49 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

1288015575_meme-electriccargreta.jpeg.62225f9473978d799178f3840bf8f5ea.jpeg

 

Exactly.  No adult ever, in all of history, has mined cobalt or lithium.  And those are not used in any product except batteries for EVs.  

Thank you for making my point for me.

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I think we can agree as Subdeacon Joe has said that EVs have a place.  Driving a fixed distance commute everyday is one thing, driving cross country is another.  I enjoy driving, I wouldn’t enjoy sitting at a charging station for over an hour while on a long trip.  There’s one other thing that is starting to make me think, it’s Ford and the F-150.  Ford is putting in smaller engines and is going to launch an all electric version, but is a pick up truck really a good platform for all electric?  My BIL has a 150 with the twin turbo V6 and yes he gets good gas mileage, yes it does an ok job without a load, but try to tow something or fill the bed with weight and that engine is straining to keep up.  If you want to do those things with a Ford you’ll have to spring for an F-250, which is more truck than most folks need.  I don’t tow or load up my Silverado everyday, unloaded the gas mileage is pretty good, and when I want to pull my camper, or go get honey do supplies I know that I don’t have to think about how far I can go do to temperatures, load and charging time.  Like was said are EVs for everyone, no, is it for me, I don’t see one in my future, but I really don’t like that the government has incentives to go electric.  Why not hydrogen, or natural gas?  If it is really that good shouldn’t the market dictate it?  

 

I’m getting off my soapbox now.  

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I really think they are going the wrong direction to sell ev’s.  Most mfg just push economy and save the world.  Imho most don’t really care about either.  They need to sell ev’s on the driving experience.   This is one area that musk realized early on and why tesla sells more ev’s that anyone else.  Make it fun to drive.  An ev is fast and quiet.  Need to go faster, just roll into the throttle.  My Bolt was every bit as fast as a late 80’s mustang gt.  It’s just fun to drive a car that’s fast and relatively cheap to drive.   Is it a long trip car, no, but with a bit more battery, say 75-80kwh would cover all but the most severe corner cases of daily driving.   Put a 100kwh pack in a small suv for $40k and I would buy another EV.  

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9 hours ago, Still hand Bill said:

I really think they are going the wrong direction to sell ev’s.  Most mfg just push economy and save the world.  Imho most don’t really care about either.  They need to sell ev’s on the driving experience.   This is one area that musk realized early on and why tesla sells more ev’s that anyone else.  Make it fun to drive.  An ev is fast and quiet.  Need to go faster, just roll into the throttle.  My Bolt was every bit as fast as a late 80’s mustang gt.  It’s just fun to drive a car that’s fast and relatively cheap to drive.   Is it a long trip car, no, but with a bit more battery, say 75-80kwh would cover all but the most severe corner cases of daily driving.   Put a 100kwh pack in a small suv for $40k and I would buy another EV.  

Which is slower than the current gas v6 2021 Ford Expedition.   It is slow to average by modern standards.  

 

Companies like Tesla and Rivian will continue to wow us with fast products.

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