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Alec Baldwin Shot and Killed Female Cinematographer, Injured Director on Movie Set


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15 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

My thought is that if the production was to include scenes requiring real cartridges, Baldwin should have been keenly aware of that and damned sure which he was firing. If his question about why he was handed a "hot gun" is valid, then the person responsible for the loading and the gun bears direct blame.

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:

I noticed the same thing.
Trigger was pulled twice.

Baldwin is well known for his lack of anger management control.

 

Come on guys, there are many well known incidences of one bullet passing through one person and hitting another person. ;) One of the more famous, or infamous as the case may be,  is the "magic bullet" with JFK and Connally.:ph34r:

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16 hours ago, Bart Slade said:

 

First - I absolutely agree we don't know the details.   If I were sitting on a jury with the information we have right now, I'd find Baldwin not guilty.

 

And my opinion had noting to do with his politics.

 

But two things 

  1. The airplane / NASCAR analogy doesn't work for me because in those cases you're talking about complicated pieces of machinery.  Here, we're very likely talking about a revolver that is loaded with blanks (again, we don't know for sure).   In that circumstance, a safety check is not a burdensome requirement of the person using it.
  2. Yes, I agree that the culture on movie sets is that the actors don't check their own guns or receive any special (or even ordinary) firearms safety training.   THIS IS THE PROBLEM!   THIS is a factor in why these kind of accidents can happen!   
  3. The fact that the actors are untrained and unschooled is the exact reason I likened them to a child playing with a gun (who is equally untrained).   They need to be VERY AWARE that this kind of accident can happen.   They need to get it drilled into them as intensely (or more intensely) as you get it drilled into you at any firing range or SASS match.   

So for those reasons, I respectfully disagree with you.

I will respectfully disagree with your comment #2. Simply look up Halle Berry or Keneua Reeves training at Taran Tactical for John Wick movies. They had to put in hours and hours of gun safety handling simply to get on the set. When our daughter lived in CA, she new a few of the women instructors at Taran. They were disciplined and tough with the actors, as needed. Whatever happened in this case will unlikely never be fully vetted. But some directors, investors, safety managers or others associated with some films......require it. Because they dislike lawsuits, and want to keep all their money.

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12 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

Good example of an actor previously trained in correct gun handling (whether it was Bad Boys 1, and/or multiple other movies). 

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2 hours ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

I will respectfully disagree with your comment #2. Simply look up Halle Berry or Keneua Reeves training at Taran Tactical for John Wick movies. They had to put in hours and hours of gun safety handling simply to get on the set. When our daughter lived in CA, she new a few of the women instructors at Taran. They were disciplined and tough with the actors, as needed. Whatever happened in this case will unlikely never be fully vetted. But some directors, investors, safety managers or others associated with some films......require it. Because they dislike lawsuits, and want to keep all their money.

I've seen some video clips of Reeves and Halle Berry getting run through their paces and they weren't playing around.  Chris Pine (the new Capt Kirk) ain't too shabby running and gunning either.  Heck, even Markie Mark Walberg did a pretty good job in his Bob Lee Swagger movie (like his jam clearing on an M4 while on the run at one point in the movie).

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5 minutes ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

Good example of an actor previously trained in correct gun handling (whether it was Bad Boys 1, and/or multiple other movies). 

 

I like the casual slap down of the pistol. Almost as if he has had to do it before.

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Moments before the fatal shooting, Assistant Director Dave Halls grabbed a prop gun off the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the application.
"Cold gun," Halls yelled.
It wasn't, according to court records. Instead, when Baldwin pulled the trigger, he killed Hutchins and wounded Souza, who was standing behind her.
So folks, how many wrongs can we find here?
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1 hour ago, Savvy Jack said:
Moments before the fatal shooting, Assistant Director Dave Halls grabbed a prop gun off the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the application.
"Cold gun," Halls yelled.
It wasn't, according to court records. Instead, when Baldwin pulled the trigger, he killed Hutchins and wounded Souza, who was standing behind her.
So folks, how many wrongs can we find here?

Is this hypothetical or do you know something that no one else knows? If so where did you get your info ?

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Sounds like the "earlier" mis-fires by this gun were really hang-fires ...

 

From another article >>

“A gun had two misfires in a closed cabin. They just fired loud pops – a person was just holding it in their hands and it went off,” a source told Deadline earlier. <<

 

Soooooooo it sounds like they might have been dealing with some damp blanks ... and that was possibly messing up a few scenes ... AND ... someone (the real gun guy) decided that using live rounds where possible would get them past that problem (until they could get their hands on some proper blanks).

 

Then ... they had set squabbles and the guy who was supposed to be taking care of the guns decided to head back to Albuquerque w/ the rest of the disgruntled crew. (AND there was that gun laying there w/ a live round in it ... just waiting for someone who knew nothing about guns to put it in the mix) ... IMHO as always of course ...

 

It is a shame that there is such a hate for guns that we don't have gun safety classes anymore. How many times do you read about teenagers breaking into a house .. finding a gun and the while playing ... drop the magazine and point/shoot it at someone ... (not having any idea that the gun would fire with the magazine removed).

 

AND ... on top of that we have almost every prime time TV show w/ the hot model and a gun!! No wonder all the kids want one. 

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16 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Is this hypothetical or do you know something that no one else knows? If so where did you get your info ?

Fox news dude, plastered all over the news page! https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/rust-director-joel-souza-injured-in-movie-set-shooting-speaks-out-i-am-gutted

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Just now, Savvy Jack said:

Okay thanks, just being my old skeptical self.<_<

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I don't think Baldwin is less guilty; but wonder if he was set up?

 

Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer on a New Mexico film set with a gun a crew member had assured the actor was safe, a tragic mistake that came hours after some workers walked off the job to protest conditions and production issues. An assistant director, Dave Halls, grabbed a prop gun off a cart at a desert movie ranch and handed it to Baldwin during a Thursday rehearsal for the Western film “Rust,” according to court records made public Friday. “Cold gun,” Halls yelled, declaring the weapon didn’t carry live rounds and was ready to fire.

Read more at: https://www.charlotteobserver.com/entertainment/movies-news-reviews/article255224686.html#storylink=cpy

 

PS I believe he is an adam henry to all.

Edited by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217
PS
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45 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Baldwin is well documented for his complete inability to control his temper.

With this in mind, I wonder if he was pitching another of his famous hissy fits and pointed that prop at those people to reinforce his point.

That is part of what I have come across, not clearly confirmed from a reliable source.

 

So pending confirmation, the director called for another take of a scene. Baldwin disagreed. He expressed his displeasure by picking up the firearm, pointing it at said individual, and pulling the trigger.

 

Now I do understand those who do not know firearms safety rules would call that an accident. We in the firearms community understand our own stricter standard and classify this as a negligent discharge.

 

I have read the movie standard for firearms handling, and the entire thing must have been written by those who do not understand firearms.

 

The standard we use begins with the mantra to always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.

 

The movie standard reassures everyone that no firearm is loaded unless it is absolutely confirmed to be loaded.

 

And someone died because of this totally bass-ackwards view of firearm safety.

Edited by John Kloehr
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9 hours ago, Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme said:

I will respectfully disagree with your comment #2. Simply look up Halle Berry or Keneua Reeves training at Taran Tactical for John Wick movies. They had to put in hours and hours of gun safety handling simply to get on the set. When our daughter lived in CA, she new a few of the women instructors at Taran. They were disciplined and tough with the actors, as needed. Whatever happened in this case will unlikely never be fully vetted. But some directors, investors, safety managers or others associated with some films......require it. Because they dislike lawsuits, and want to keep all their money.

The interview I saw said Halle chose to take the swat training course three times to develop her skills for more realistic scenes.  The movie benefited for it.

Edited by sassnetguy50
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24 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I have read the movie standard for firearms handling, and the entire thing must have been written by those who do not understand firearms.

 

The standard we use begins with the mantra to always treat every firearm as if it is loaded.

 

The movie standard reassures everyone that no firearm is loaded unless it is absolutely confirmed to be loaded.

 

And someone died because of this totally bass-ackwards view of firearm safety.

Like it would be a shock that Hollywierd would make up their own rules instead of listening to somebody that understands firearms. Most of them hate guns and those who own them. They also tend to think that they are better than the rest of us, so again, why would they listen to one of us.

It's like the trucking Co. lawyers that insist all truck wheels be chocked even though any truck with air brakes since the 1970s have spring brakes that lock the wheels any time you set them.

Too many times people who don't understand how things work make rules for those that do.

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the previous “misfires” are described as negligent discharges (witnesses confused terminology)

2 happened while shooting with Baldwin’s stunt double the previous saturday.

Edited by WOLFY
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57 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

And someone died because of this totally bass-ackwards view of firearm safety.

Someone died because this guy is an out of control ass.
This time, it has finally caught up with him.
His career has died, so I fully expect him to climb on the (well paid) anti-gun bandwagon.

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53 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I fully expect him to climb on the (well paid) anti-gun bandwagon.

He's been one of the clowns DRIVING the thing for years. If any of these guys had an ounce of integrity, they would refuse to perform in a movie where their character uses one. And that goes all the way back to Kirk Douglas announcing that he hates guns AFTER he retired from making Westerns, (and lots of money), wherein he regularly used them.

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3 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I don't think Baldwin is less guilty; but wonder if he was set up?

 

Anything is possible with Hollywerid . I’ve heard some wild speculation, like a disgruntled employee slipped in a loaded round , and Baldwin was having a affair with the woman that was shot . Allot of people do dislike Baldwin.
But most likely its just carelessness. Another tragic work place accident 

Just don’t know what a gun that can accept a loaded cartridge would be doing In with prop guns 

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3 hours ago, Singin&#x27; Sue 71615 said:

Speculation achieves nothing.

Acusations bring nothing.

 

Regardless of outcome, it can not be changed, only learned from.

 

Praying

amen to this , we all know what baldwin is and we also know that even someone like him would not do this intentionally , there is one injured and one dead - we cqan only pray for them and let the LE sort it all out , 

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I heard the Armorer on set was the famous trick shooter and movie armorer Thell Reeds daughter (24 years old) and this was her second movie as head Armorer. She had recently mentioned on some podcast that she wasn't very confident in her abilities to be head armorer. With that being said, It was the Asst Director who handed one of three guns on a cart to Baldwin and stated it was "Cold" (unloaded).

Rule #1 NEVER take anybody's word when you are handed a gun you CHECK IT FOR YOURSELF ! They still have not said what kind of projectile was fired. 

I also understand that Baldwin is a loud mouth, Pompus, Arrogant, and all around difficult person to work with.

Prayers for the son and husband of the cinematographer.

Baldwin will have to live with this tragedy. 

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Hat tip to Creeker and particularly to John Kloehr for that csatf pdf. Most imformative and is pretty close to other documents from other organizations that conduct "reality based training scenarios" and organizations supporting film activities that I have seen and worked with during my career.

 

I'm no longer "the Guy". I'm a once was. Being a rangemaster/armorer, there's always ONE guy that is responsible...along with some others for activities on a range, training facility etc. It's not always just one thing nor one person that causes an accident.

 

I've BEEN that guy and done that kind of training for all sorts of people. I've built those blank firing guns to standard or used other systems off-the-shelf shooting everything from blanks, nothing, paintballs, wax or foam "bullets" and live ammo. Trust me on this;

you don't WANT to be "thet guy". Fair enough?

 

My personal feelings about Mr Baldwin are immaterial. Likewise Ms. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed who was apparently the assigned armorer for the set and is the daughter of Thell Reed. Some of you know who he is and if ya don't, you should look him up. Hell of a guy. Dave Halls was the assistant director and figures into this, according to what I have read.

I know as much as y'all, but I'll share. the Reader's Digest version.

 

Ms Gutierrez-Reed was the armorer for the set. Several firearms were placed on a cart outside her control at some point, where Mr Halls retrevied the one in question, possibly a vintage revolver. Condition unknown.

 

There was already one accidental discharge on the set when Mr Baldwin's stunt double fired two "rounds" during a rehersal with a "cold" firearm.

 

For the instant event, Mr Baldwin was rehearsing "firing into the camera". The first attempt nothing fired. The second was a live shot which struck two people.

 

We do not know the specific firearm nor do we know the type of ammunition.

 

I'm not going to cover adapting semi-autos to blanks. Several safe ways to do that but it's outside the scope. Revolvers normally use standard or sub-caliber munitions and can have an open bore or plugged. Plug is normally welded but I have seen threaded plugs.

 

Blank munitions come in many flavors. Used to be the 5in1 was common. Brass case, black powder, roll crimped cardboard/fiber wad. Today blanks are manufactured like this or with lengthened brass/aluminium cases crimped shut like a shotgun shell. Some have cannelures. THAT's important, sports fans.

 

Any of you folks use or seen say, 38 special that has a cannelure (grooved area) just below the case mouth? They put that there to help prevent the bullet getting pushed deeper into the case. That there...is a weak spot. Surely, someone here has had or seen or heard of someone getting a seperated case in a firearm's chamber? Mostly they stay. But not always.

 

So. A lot of unknowns. Who's fault? Well, by the rules, the assistant director who violated a few ironclad safety rules plus the person whose RESPONSIBILITY it was....the set armorer or property master.

 

As far as criminal liability....well, lets just say the law generally holds whoever held the firearm to account. Operative words in any applicable statute would be recklessly or neglegent.

 

By the by.

Ever been on a movie set? There's a lotts stuff and people you don't see on the silver screen LOL. Lotsa lectrical and lighting guys. Stage hands carrying ladders and coffee and such. Assistants to the assistants runnin' round with coffee and clipboards. Boom guys trying to bonk everyone in sight with their mike on a crane....and the director, assistant director and producer, some assistants mebbe...

sitting right next to that big ol'Panaflex camera on a dolly. Because ever'body knows the director wants to see what the camera/AUDIENCE will see. Why they didn't have a plexi shield...dunno. I do know likely a number of people will get to "kiss the donkey" before this one's over.

 

I reviewed a number of articles and social media posts which led me to (more crap LOL) some other articles and such, but I found BitC and LATimes to have what appears more correct info. The local NM newsies well, go look.

 

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I have only been on two movie sets in the past.
One of the cinematic techniques is pointing the gun at the camera (audience).
The cinematographer and director are usually at the camera position.

I can see where a single FMJ centerfire round could penetrate the front person, and strike the back person.

 

Edited by bgavin
edited for typos
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22 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Is the dippy b---h opening this segment really SMILE, knowing what she's introducing?

 

One more case of how disconnected much of the press is from real people and real situations.

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First, I have never been on a movie set...so there!  But at one time I had heard that it was the practice for anyone shooting a gun at another person/character on a set to "aim off" so the "target" wouldn't be struck by the wads from blanks, or, of course, if a live round had accidentally been in the gun.  As far as aiming the gun at the camera is concerned, it still could have been done if the camera angles were correct.  Beyond that, IMHO, there should be no such thing as a "cold gun"!  Every gun should be considered "hot", and the angles adjusted in case some mistake had been made.  In addition, the actors handling guns should be instructed in checking the gun they are handling themselves!

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After reading all the posts I’m surprised by some, and not by others.

I don’t have anything new to add really. So 5here’s no point in offering my opinion at this time.

The facts of the incident will eventually be revealed when the investigation is complete.

But Americans today want instant information. This is primarily the fault of CNN inventing the 24 hour news cycle during the Gulf War and the explosion of the Internet in subsequent years. And when accurate info is unavailable rumor, innuendo, and lies seem to suffice.
 

The Internet is our National backyard fence where we discuss everything from who was drunk in church last Sunday to how the Japanese surprised us at Pearl Harbor to what the best friend of my cousins wife said at the beauty parlor. 
 

Whether there is eventual criminal prosecution or civil action is above my pay grade. I hope for healing for all those involved. Regardless of their politics, culpability, or personalities.

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