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WTC - Shotgun Target Falls Down During Rifle and Pistol Sequence.


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18 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I think if there is a sequence and the round count is exact, then move to the next target.

Round count without "+" for SG KDs would be imho very poor stage writing (never encountered it, but basically possible...). But if you can't make up misses at all, you don't have to discuss when...

 

23 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

But if the round count is for example 4+, then the miss needs to be made up on the next shot.

With somewhat havier KDs the first target is not even down when engaging the second, at least with a SxS. And when shooting BP you don't see which target is down right after the shot. So, re-engaging the missed KDs after the sequence must be an option, but can they be re-engaged at any time durin g the sequence?

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If you have a specific sequence for SG and the shots are X+, then you will also need to specify when the makeups can be made (next shot, after the string or at any time) and from where. NOT recommended to do this at all as they are knockdowns and not stationary targets. VERY seldom do I write an order for SG and if I did, I would definitely give the shooter makeups at any time... otherwise yer askin for it! 

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I do it so I can spend all of my money, all of my time and energy preparing for days, weeks to actually partake in our game/sport (take your pick) for a total of less than three minutes on the clock, go home whipped and have to clean at least 4 dirty guns... then start it all over again. Oh yeah, and because it's FUN!!!

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So, let me try and nail some Jell-o to a tree...

 

First, let us look at some definitions:

 

SHB - Penalty Overview

Quote

FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. …

 

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

To help understand this concept, a “MISS FLOW CHART” is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”

 

SHB - Stage Conventions

Quote

All shotgun knockdown targets may be reengaged until down

All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count.

     o Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

 

SHB - Glossary of Terms

Quote

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

Now, our scenario (we'll deal with a different scenario in a follow-up):

 

4 SG targets, instructed to engage in any order.

 

For whatever reason, shooter gets up there and there is 1 shotgun target already down.

 

Shooter fires a shotgun round downrange. The round does not down one of the three up targets, and there are still 3 targets standing.

 

Please answer the following:

 

At this point, by definition, has the shooter successfully engaged a shotgun target?

 

If they have not, please specify, by rule, what they must do to successfully engage a shotgun target.

 

Can we not attribute that engagement to the shotgun target that is down?  

 

If not, please specify, by rule, why it cannot and what the shooter must do to appropriately engage the downed shotgun target?

 

If the shooter were to stop right here, would they be scored with three misses for the three up targets, or is there additional penalty for the 4th (down) target? Are there any other additional penalties to consider? Please specify, by rule, the applicable penalties. 

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Well this topic has devolved. Can we all just agree that I'm correct in my answers to the OP question so we can move on to egos:ph34r:.

 

Come on now, that was funny I don't care who you are. It does give me a topic for a new thread though:o

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Well this topic has devolved. Can we all just agree that I'm correct in my answers to the OP question so we can move on to egos:ph34r:.

 

Come on now, that was funny I don't care who you are. It does give me a topic for a new thread though:o

Well hurry up and get to the new thread. 

I have to work on my copy/ paste of your posts and look like I know what I'm talking about.  ;)

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Well this topic has devolved. Can we all just agree that I'm correct in my answers to the OP question so we can move on to egos:ph34r:.

 

Come on now, that was funny I don't care who you are. It does give me a topic for a new thread though:o

 

His nickname in High School was 'Ego Williams'.   But most girls called him 'Eggo'.

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Please take the other discussion to a new thread.

 

6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

At this point, by definition, has the shooter successfully engaged a shotgun target?

Yes

6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Can we not attribute that engagement to the shotgun target that is down?  

Yes

6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If the shooter were to stop right here, would they be scored with three misses for the three up targets

Yes

6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

or is there additional penalty for the 4th (down) target?

No, already answered as engaged.

6 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Are there any other additional penalties to consider? Please specify, by rule, the applicable penalties. 

Been thinking about this.

 

Need to still think overnight. I do see something, but think it is already eliminated in the circumstances; it is caused by those same circumstances, but should not be.

 

I might ask you by PM rather than in this thread.

Edited by John Kloehr
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Ok, Asbestos undies on.  Larson, you are asking us to page and paragraph a point.  You can also have the ROC guy to show you as well.  Make him prove his point.  And now the part I need the undies.  If he wasn't to TO or active spotter, he had no voice.

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4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I'd like to offer that all the yapping and typing on here is to no avail. We need to hear from ROC or PWB.  

 

Its highly possible that members of the ROC and PWB read our comments and our

reasonings on the way we interpret rules and guidelines, and then when they post 

their clarification, they can word it in a manner that we can all understand and

use correctly, etc...

 

..........Widder

 

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6 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Its highly possible that members of the ROC and PWB read our comments and our

reasonings on the way we interpret rules and guidelines, and then when they post 

their clarification, they can word it in a manner that we can all understand and

use correctly, etc...

 

..........Widder

 

Yup, but some folks STILL gotta argue. I really admire PWB's restraint at times.

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1 hour ago, Clueless Bob said:

Ok, Asbestos undies on.  Larson, you are asking us to page and paragraph a point.  You can also have the ROC guy to show you as well.  Make him prove his point.  And now the part I need the undies.  If he wasn't to TO or active spotter, he had no voice.

 

If he was a Posse Marshal, Match RO, Rangemaster, or MD, he would.

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4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

For those that say the shooter has to shoot where it was just how close does that shot have to be before it counts? 6 inches, a foot, 3 feet. 

 

What if the SG KDs doe not sit directly on the ground but is elevated a foot or more? 

 

Who decides when it is close enough?

 

The question that has been resent to the ROC is whether ANY shotgun round fired downrange that misses a shotgun target can be assigned as a "shoot where it was" HIT on a target that is down (for whatever reason) before the shooter begins the shotgun string.

This would only apply when there is no "order of engagement" specified...unless the down target is the first one of a designated order.

 

Any other scenarios will be addressed separately after this basic question has been answered.

 

The consensus ruling of the Range Operations Committee will be "posted and pinned" on the Wires as soon as all members have responded.

Sidebar commentary that is not relevant to the discussion will be dismissed. 

 

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