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WTC - Shotgun Target Falls Down During Rifle and Pistol Sequence.


Null N. Void
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If you insist on adding red herrings and additional instructions/ conditions to the question; you may eventually get the answer you're looking for.

 

In the absence of any additional instruction (such as any SG target order, move to a different position, use rifle between two separated SG strings, etc.).

All of which the OP did not mention in their question.

Then the "mantra" of

X shots fired - X targets down - Next shooter

is always going to be correct.

 

It is an objective observation of results - not a subjective interpretation of intent.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's pretty common to have no order for shotgun targets.  At least it's the practice in most of the south east USA.

Yes, I see that in videos. At our club, some stages are written with shotgun targets any order, some require an order (mostly combined with easy rifle and pistol sweeps then). But it's a small club and we shoot at one bay, maybe that's the difference. Having requirements regarding KD order adds variety to the stages without moving the targets after every stage. And target order is some part of the CAS game, so why omit that with one gun?

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At the Georgia state match and in the OP, no order was given.  At least where I shoot, if no order is given, you're free to knock them down as you see fit.

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

There is a piece of information that is missing from the OP. In what order were the shotgun targets to be engaged?

 

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18 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

 

 

You have apparently not been reading this thread or the earlier one.  That is exactly what many are saying.  Six shots fired, six shots down, next shooter.  That is the mantra.

I have been following it. Did you see my previous posts? I make sure to say "if the OP was as written" or "if that's the way it happened". In the OP, there is no specific order for sg kds and no seperate shooting locations. Both of which would make a difference in the call.

 

For instance:

Engage 2 kds from window one and 2 kds from window two.

One target in window 2 is down for whatever reason.

Shooter fires 3 shots from window one knocking down 2 targets. Shooter gets to window 2 and MUST fire 2 rounds even though there's only one target up and he will have fired 4 rounds. The reason his miss or extra expended round doesn't count from window one is because the 2 kds in window 2 can't be engaged from there without earning a P. It's actually pretty simple, but people get under that blanket 4 shots 4 targets down and can't get out from under it. IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION, and the OP "as written" should be a no call.

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6 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

And target order is some part of the CAS game, so why omit that with one gun?

If the OP had specified there was a SG target order - that would have been a different question with a different answer.

 

Which is exactly why the rulebook cannot codify every single possibility of outcome and we, as intelligent individuals may have to discern the answer.

 

In an assigned target order - each round has a corresponding target.

If target 4 is down - I cannot expend shot 1 into the ether and then claim it was to account for that downed target because it was SPECIFICALLY to be used on target 1.

In an assigned target order - If shot 1 misses target 1 it is a miss.

And must have another shot expended to correct.  

 

This does not, in any way, contradict the answer for the prior question.  It is TWO differing circumstances which require TWO differing answers.

 

 

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I am leaving for Bordertown tomorrow morning and am in such a quandry I am not sure I can shoot.  I am shivering in my boots.  So, I am at Bordertown and the shotgun targets on a particular stage are +4 shotgun, any order.  I load my trusty SKB SxS and fire two rounds.  Target two falls.  I reload and fire two rounds.  Targets three and four fall.  I reload but the wind blows down target one.  Do I fire?

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Creeker, I have some lag time in my phone today I think. We keep saying close to the same thing. Funny

I just wait for you to respond and then copy/ paste.

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Who would have guess this topic would be so difficult to settle. Probably why the ROC has not response since the original OP back in June.

New Scenario (Original OP was 6 SG w/1 target down while engaging other 5)

4 SG any order 4+ shots

#1 hits dirt in from of target #1

#2 hits top of #1 target fails to fall

#3 hits #1 target and falls

#4 hits second target and falls

while shooting first two targets, # 3 & #4 fall on there own.

is shooter done?

Edited by KH24
Clarify OP
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8 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I am leaving for Bordertown tomorrow morning and am in such a quandry I am not sure I can shoot.  I am shivering in my boots.  So, I am at Bordertown and the shotgun targets on a particular stage are +4 shotgun, any order.  I load my trusty SKB SxS and fire two rounds.  Target two falls.  I reload and fire two rounds.  Targets three and four fall.  I reload but the wind blows down target one.  Do I fire?

I would just refuse to shoot shotgun.

Safely stage your empty rifle and pistols at the end of the shooting string - run downrange and kick over the SG targets while throwing some Winchester AA shells at the berm.  That should satisfy everyone.

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Can we stick to the OP and get an answer on it?  Feel free to start another post with different scenarios and get an answer on them. 

 

Here, just to remind everyone, there are six SG targets.  No order was given to knock them down.  One SG target falls before the shooter gets to the SG targets.  The shooter clearly misses everything with the first shot, then proceeds to knock down the 5 remaining targets.  Is the shooter done, or does the shooter have to fire a 7th SG shot?

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4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I would just refuse to shoot shotgun.

Safely stage your empty rifle and pistols at the end of the shooting string - run downrange and kick over the SG targets while throwing some Winchester AA shells at the berm.  That should satisfy everyone.

Way to answer a very simple question.  Is it four shots fired, four targets down, next shooter or not?

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1 minute ago, Null N. Void said:

Can we stick to the OP and get an answer on it?  Feel free to start another post with different scenarios and get an answer on them. 

 

Here, just to remind everyone, there are six SG targets.  No order was given to knock them down.  One SG target falls before the shooter gets to the SG targets.  The shooter clearly misses everything with the first shot, then proceeds to knock down the 5 remaining targets.  Is the shooter done, or does the shooter have to fire a 7th SG shot?

Was answered a LONG time ago.

Folks just dont like the answer because they wish to penalize the shooter for events outside their control.

 

In the absence of a target order.

6 targets down - 6 shots expended - Next shooter.

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9 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Was answered a LONG time ago.

Folks just dont like the answer because they wish to penalize the shooter for events outside their control.

 

In the absence of a target order.

6 targets down - 6 shots expended - Next shooter.

I'd like PWB to confirm this.  That would settle the OP and then the group can go on with other scenarios.

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26 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I'd like PWB to confirm this.  That would settle the OP and then the group can go on with other scenarios.

I would say if you only want PWBs response and nobody else then email him instead of posting a wtc. I'd also recommend saying exactly what you want the answer to and the full instructions with the INITIAL inquiry. 

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On 10/17/2021 at 1:36 PM, Null N. Void said:

I posted this before the EOT and didn't get an answer and I can't find the original posting.  PWB on the wire and a Black Pin at a match gave different answers and it was referred to the ROC.  As far as I know it was never decided or answered.

 

Scenario is rifle and pistol are shot correctly.  There are 6 shotgun targets.  During the rifle and pistol strings, one of the SG targets fell, so only 5 are standing.  The shooter goes to shoot the first SG round and clearly misses all the SG targets.  The shooter then proceeds to knock down the remaining 5 SG targets with 5 shots.  The shooter has now shot 6 SG rounds and all six SG targets are down.   

 

A - The shooter is done, 6 rounds fired, six SG targets are down.  

 

or

 

B - The shooter must shoot one more round to make up for the clear miss.

 

Either way is OK with me.  There are arguments for both.  I just want to be consistent on the call.

 

 

NNV,

I can understand from this scenario why some feel the need for an ROC interpretation,

although I don't.

 

QUESTION:  Where is the penalty when the shooter fires the SG safety downrange,

and fires the correct number of rounds per stage instructions?

Is there a penalty for the shooter when there is a prop failure?

 

And for those who want to interject 'Benefit of doubt goes to shooter',  where is the 'doubt'?

There were 6 KD's, there was 6 shots fired, and there are 6 KD's down.

 

Just my thinking!

 

..........Widder

 

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Shooter's Handbook, page 13:

Quote

In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.” For safety reasons a target on the ground should never be engaged.

Doesn't matter if it is a shotgun or not.  And it says NOT to shoot a target on the ground.


So I would logically expect a "miss"  - that would NOT be counted as a miss penalty.

Since that target cannot be considered a miss since a shot was fired, that leaves that target out of the discussion.

 

Part of my job for many years was to interpret rules and later write rules. 

 

Note: It is not humanly possible to write anything as good as the 10 Commandments. 

But the Jews struggled because they want to count steps to avoid being accused of working on the sabbath.  That shows that we can all suffer from lack of good sense.  Nearly all sabbaths (but 2) were noted as no strenuous work. 

 

So even there, you are judged by your own intent, and only you can God can judge that well. 

 

Fortunately SASS rules don't go there.
God really does expect us to use the rules of logic He has given us to apply all rules of life.

 

I am a strong believer that the IRS rules are way too loose.  They need to be expanded to cover ALL eventualities. (Sarcasm alert.)  We expect those rules to be completed after we are all dead.

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14 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Where is the penalty when the shooter fires the SG safety downrange,

and fires the correct number of rounds per stage instructions?

Is there a penalty for the shooter when there is a prop failure?

This was clearly stated in a quote from one the RO courses (quoted in the thread from 6 months ago.

 

A shooter can not be penalized for a prop failure. So no P. No miss.

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11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

NNV,

I can understand from this scenario why some feel the need for an ROC interpretation,

although I don't.

 

QUESTION:  Where is the penalty when the shooter fires the SG safety downrange,

and fires the correct number of rounds per stage instructions?

Is there a penalty for the shooter when there is a prop failure?

 

And for those who want to interject 'Benefit of doubt goes to shooter',  where is the 'doubt'?

There were 6 KD's, there was 6 shots fired, and there are 6 KD's down.

 

Just my thinking!

 

..........Widder

 

The penalty is to the other shooters.

One TO - 6 shots 6 down ( prop failure or hits doesn’t matter) Next shooter 

Second TO - 4 shots 4 down, 2 shots one down (first a miss or failed to knock target down); 6th target down due to prop failure. TO - fire one more, for the KD that fell due to prop failure.

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1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

I'd like PWB to confirm this.  That would settle the OP and then the group can go on with other scenarios.

 

We may be waiting a bit on this one.  PWB may answer, "in my opinion", but it's not a ROC consensus until he can get the others to respond to him.  From Larsen's post, not all ROC members are of the same mind on this...  

 

See you in Alabama!

Edited by McCandless
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6 minutes ago, KH24 said:

The penalty is to the other shooters.

One TO - 6 shots 6 down ( prop failure or hits doesn’t matter) Next shooter 

Second TO - 4 shots 4 down, 2 shots one down (first a miss or failed to knock target down); 6th target down due to prop failure. TO - fire one more, for the KD that fell due to prop failure.

Lets see if I can ask this question in an easier way...

 

4 targets, but one is down. Stage instructions call out no order or different firing location for any of the targets. It can go one of 3 ways:

 

A: Shooter throws a round that-a-way for the down target. Then successfully engages the other 3. 4 down, 4 shots fired.

 

B: Shooter successfully engages the 3 up targets, then throws one more that-a-way for the down target. 4 down, 4 shots fired.

 

C: Shooter engages the 3 up targets, but one of them (for whatever reason) is still up after 3 shots. Shooter engages that target and knocks it down. Still 4 shots fired, 4 targets down.

 

Under C, is the shooter getting a free pass? That seems to be what I am reading as the concern.

 

If so, would a rule along the lines of "In the event a SG KD target is down prior to shooter engagement, it shall be engaged by shooting where it was at the earliest opportunity allowed by the stage instructions."

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And having proposed that rule... And thought about it for a few seconds...

 

4 targets, one shooting position, no order specified.

 

Number 1 is already down.

 

Shooter engages #1, #2 falls.

Shooter engages #2, #3 falls.

Shooter engages #3, #4 falls.

Shooter engages #4 (where it was, or that-a-way)

4 shots, 4 down.

 

Assume my "new" rule was adopted by the ROC. Recall a prop failure can not result in shooter penalty. Clean?

 

I just figured out writing rules is not easy. Not even one that should exactly solve a particular question.

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3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

C: Shooter engages the 3 up targets, but one of them (for whatever reason) is still up after 3 shots. Shooter engages that target and knocks it down. Still 4 shots fired, 4 targets down.

This is still guessing intent, imo.

If there's no specified order, you don't KNOW where that shot is supposed to go. The way I laid it out is the only way to interpret it without blowing the miss/flow chart out of the water.

   For instance: 2 rifle targets on opposite sides of the stage 40 yards apart. Instructions are alternate targets for 10 rounds. The shooters rifle locks up after round 9 and it takes them a while to get it unlocked. Their last shot is due on the far right target. The shooter aims to the far left target(as is obvious to everybody in the state because they're 40yds apart) but misses it. We ALL KNOW he intended to hit the far left target. Had he hit it, he would've earned a P. Since he missed it, he earned a miss. It works both ways to keep the miss flow chart alive.

3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

This is still guessing intent, imo.

Agree. Sometimes God smiles on someone. And the score should reflect that result.

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22 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

We may be waiting a bit on this one.  PWB may answer, "in my opinion", but it's not a ROC consensus until he can get the others to respond to him.  From Larsen's post, not all ROC members are of the same mind on this...  

 

See you in Alabama!

Well that just tells me, some of 'em are wrong:ph34r:.

 

Y'all look me up at Ambush. I'd like to meet ya.

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13 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

Y'all look me up at Ambush. I'd like to meet ya.

Just look for the slowest shooter out there, that'll be me!  :blush:

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6 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OH, do you know who PWB is?

He's the final word on SASS rules interpretation ;)

OLG 

Oh, I get it now.

 

I took a little time to explain how I got to my call, and you thought that meant I either didn't know who PWB was, or that I somehow thought I could edumacate him on the SHB.

 

So instead of addressing the topic, you took it on yourself to inform or remind me of my place.

 

Thanks. Got it.

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Wow .. pg 13 ...

>>

In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

---- AND ... in another sentence it says ... ---
For safety reasons a target on the ground should never be engaged.

<<

It doesn't say not to "shoot where it was" (or not to shoot at all) now the it might be on the ground.

It simply says ... don't shoot at a target if it is laying on the ground. Fire one over it and move on!! Take the shot. 

 

If you have 4 shotgun targets and 3 are laying on the ground when you get to them ... then heck ... fire 4 safe shots and make sure one of those shots retires the single remaining target that is still standing.

No call ... no penalty ... 

Wow ... <_<

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9 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Wow .. pg 13 ...

>>

In the event a target fails or is downed, the shooter should “shoot where it was.”

---- AND ... in another sentence it says ... ---
For safety reasons a target on the ground should never be engaged.

<<

It doesn't say not to "shoot where it was" (or not to shoot at all) now the it might be on the ground.

It simply says ... don't shoot at a target if it is laying on the ground. Fire one over it and move on!! Take the shot. 

 

If you have 4 shotgun targets and 3 are laying on the ground when you get to them ... then heck ... fire 4 safe shots and make sure one of those shots retires the single remaining target that is still standing.

No call ... no penalty ... 

Wow ... <_<

This!!!

<<

It doesn't say not to "shoot where it was" (or not to shoot at all) now the it might be on the ground.

It simply says ... don't shoot at a target if it is laying on the ground. Fire one over it and move on!! Take the shot. 

 

Where it was STANDING

 

Not on the ground...richochet issues.

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Quote

If so, would a rule along the lines of "In the event a SG KD target is down prior to shooter engagement, it shall be engaged by shooting where it was at the earliest opportunity allowed by the stage instructions."

BINGO!.....As long as it is down "Prior" to shooter engagement......If I'm TOing, and four shots are fired and four SG targets are down, I care not how they went down......Next shooter. Sometimes these things get so out of joint to not be fun anymore.....

 

BUT....Your scenario about a missed target on the third shot bring a very determined....Hmmmm??

 

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13 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:
14 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

And target order is some part of the CAS game, so why omit that with one gun?

If the OP had specified there was a SG target order - that would have been a different question with a different answer.

Yes, of course. My comment was refered to this quote:

15 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's pretty common to have no order for shotgun targets.

And yes, it has nothing to do with the OP's question (which is well enough answered in this thread).

 

But some stages at our club are written with specific SG sequence now and then. That's why PWB's post and especially the part bold emphasized (by me) got my attention:

 

17 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Here's a situation for the "X shots fired...X KD's down" group:
 

SG round count is +6

"Engage the 6 shotgun targets from left >-> right"

Target #6 is already down (for whatever reason)
Shooter misses the first shot at the left target (#1).

Re-engages and knocks it down.

Next 4 shots take down #'s 2, 3, 4, & 5 (SIX shots fired...SIX KD's down)

IF that first shot (a MISS on #1 until it was re-engaged and knocked down) counts as a HIT (i.e. "shoot where it was") on target #6, does the shooter get the PROCEDURAL for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"?

OR

Must the shooter fire a 7th round downrange to negate ALL penalties??

 

I thought until yesterday, that in this scenario a P would have been already earned with shell no.2 as this shot was assigned to target no.2 and not as a make up shot for missed target 1.

 

Equanimous Phil

 

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14 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

@The Rainmaker, SASS #11631Confused-Rainmaker.PNG.f7b940d00227c33d753285cfb91677c7.PNG

Well, as English is a foreign language for me, I don't know if my idea was that absurd or it's not clear what I'm meaning....

 

So, for the record: IF there's a sequence for SG KDs in the stage description, misses can be made up at any time during the string?

I think if there is a sequence and the round count is exact, then move to the next target.

 

But if the round count is for example 4+, then the miss needs to be made up on the next shot.

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