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WTC - Shotgun Target Falls Down During Rifle and Pistol Sequence.


Null N. Void
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5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Why is this so difficult to understand?

We DO NOT score on intent - we score on RESULTS.

 

Perhaps the shooters FIRST shot (supposed miss) was their engagement of the downed target.

And since we are specifically instructed to NEVER shoot a downed target - a MISS of the shotgun targets is the correct course of action.

 

It does NOT matter why the targets are down.

Hurricane, earthquake or someone forgot to reset them after the last shooter.

 

Six shots fired - six targets down.

 

Next shooter.

that would be to easy to remember.

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To clarify my previous post, I am completely OK with a reshoot due to equipment failure, and I'm OK with "shoot where it was" which is sort of "that-a-way."

 

I just can't see getting a shooter penalty (P or miss) as long as I "engage" the missing target.

 

 

Edited by John Kloehr
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I know some people that have struggled with the idea that, in the published shooter's choice scenario, ejecting around is considered engaging a target.

 

And then, to say in the same breath, that expending a round down range somehow does not count as engaging a shotgun target.

 

SHB pg 15

Quote

Shotgun targets may be re-engaged until down, unless otherwise specified by the stage description. 

 

Quote

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target. 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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My point was this, 6 targets and lets say #5 fell. Shooter shoots at No. 1 and misses/doesn't go down. He re-engages and knocks it down. He continues on getting to number 5. I believe he is to shoot where the target is. He doesn't shoot at 5. Then proceeds to target 6. 7 shots required.

Shooter shot only 6 rounds when 7 were required so a miss.

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13 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

My point was this, 6 targets and lets say #5 fell. Shooter shoots at No. 1 and misses/doesn't go down. He re-engages and knocks it down. He continues on getting to number 5. I believe he is to shoot where the target is. He doesn't shoot at 5. Then proceeds to target 6. 7 shots required.

Shooter shot only 6 rounds when 7 were required so a miss.

Per the OP, your answer is "B".  

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The local, state, and early EOT matches I have been to if a SG KD fell before the shotgun was in use was always told to shot over the kd in order of instructions.

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7 minutes ago, Pee Wee #15785 said:

The local, state, and early EOT matches I have been to if a SG KD fell before the shotgun was in use was always told to shot over the kd in order of instructions.

 

Happened to me at EOT this year. 2 knockdowns didn't get reset and weren't noticed, they were far side of the stage from where I started so I couldn't see them either. When I got to them the TO called out "shoot where they were!" I fired the last two over them, all was good. 

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Just my humble opinion...

  Some common sense has to be applied here. If you shoot where the typical sg knockdown was, that shot can bounce up and away to who knows where depending on the angle. I'm personally NOT going to shoot AT the downed sg target. In fact, you will definitely see a CLEAR MISS. Case in point; a rifle target that has fallen over during a stage. We're specifically told not to shoot at the downed target. Are the spotters supposed to watch where that bullet hit and determine if it would've hit the downed target? No. We're told to MISS it. That target was engaged whether it hit it or not. The criteria for that sg target being hit or not is whether it is up or down at the conclusion of the scenario and it's down.

   It doesn't get much clearer as long as it happened just as the OP says. It would make a difference if say the shotgun were to be engaged from 2 different locations and the shooter only engaged from 1.

   Its hard to get a clarification for every scenario out there. I've been trying for one myownself:ph34r:. Unfortunately everyone can have a bad day. It's to be expected. Even the ROC can make a "bad" call if that's the way this one happened. Larsen, I am wondering. Did you dispute the call? MD, TG? 

 

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2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

My point was this, 6 targets and lets say #5 fell. Shooter shoots at No. 1 and misses/doesn't go down. He re-engages and knocks it down. He continues on getting to number 5. I believe he is to shoot where the target is. He doesn't shoot at 5. Then proceeds to target 6. 7 shots required.

Shooter shot only 6 rounds when 7 were required so a miss.

My problem with this is we have to ASSUME where the shooter was aiming.

   If we do this, we destroy the miss/flow chart because.....with my rifle I aim at the correct rifle target and MISS it but still hit a rifle target, just the wrong one. It doesn't matter what my intent was, all that matters is the outcome of my intent. Regardless of how many times you hear a miss can't cause a P, it can indeed. My miss has just caused me to get a P regardless of what I meant to do. 

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12 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

I posted this before the EOT and didn't get an answer and I can't find the original posting.  PWB on the wire and a Black Pin at a match gave different answers and it was referred to the ROC.  As far as I know it was never decided or answered.

 

Scenario is rifle and pistol are shot correctly.  There are 6 shotgun targets.  During the rifle and pistol strings, one of the SG targets fell, so only 5 are standing.  The shooter goes to shoot the first SG round and clearly misses all the SG targets.  The shooter then proceeds to knock down the remaining 5 SG targets with 5 shots.  The shooter has now shot 6 SG rounds and all six SG targets are down.   

 

A - The shooter is done, 6 rounds fired, six SG targets are down.  

 

or

 

B - The shooter must shoot one more round to make up for the clear miss.

 

Either way is OK with me.  There are arguments for both.  I just want to be consistent on the call.

 

Well if he fired the first shot over the target that was down, its a case of shoot where it was. Of course there is nothing to hit. Another 5 at the rest of them and he's good to go.

IF he shot at another target ie. not the downed one and missed, THEN he should have to shoot the one "where it was"

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8 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

My problem with this is we have to ASSUME where the shooter was aiming.

   If we do this, we destroy the miss/flow chart because.....with my rifle I aim at the correct rifle target and MISS it but still hit a rifle target, just the wrong one. It doesn't matter what my intent was, all that matters is the outcome of my intent. Regardless of how many times you hear a miss can't cause a P, it can indeed. My miss has just caused me to get a P regardless of what I meant to do. 

 

That shot was NOT a miss:
"A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm..."
SHB p.21

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Here's a situation for the "X shots fired...X KD's down" group:
 

SG round count is +6

"Engage the 6 shotgun targets from left >-> right"

Target #6 is already down (for whatever reason)
Shooter 
misses the first shot at the left target (#1).

Re-engages and knocks it down.

Next 4 shots take down #'s 2, 3, 4, & 5 (SIX shots fired...SIX KD's down)

IF that first shot (a MISS on #1 until it was re-engaged and knocked down) counts as a HIT (i.e. "shoot where it was") on target #6, does the shooter get the PROCEDURAL for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"?

OR

Must the shooter fire a 7th round downrange to negate ALL penalties??

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21 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Here's a situation for the "X shots fired...X KD's down" group:
 

SG round count is +6

"Engage the 6 shotgun targets from left >-> right"

Target #6 is already down (for whatever reason)
Shooter 
misses the first shot at the left target (#1).

Re-engages and knocks it down.

Next 4 shots take down #'s 2, 3, 4, & 5 (SIX shots fired...SIX KD's down)

IF that first shot (a MISS on #1 until it was re-engaged and knocked down) counts as a HIT (i.e. "shoot where it was") on target #6, does the shooter get the PROCEDURAL for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"?

OR

Must the shooter fire a 7th round downrange to negate ALL penalties??

I don't think the one excludes the other. To explain:

 

Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. So a hit on the wrong type target is counted as a miss, not a P -- rather than try to determine whether it was an intent to hit the right target that went astray, or a brain glitch that put the shot on the wrong target, we just call it a miss and move on. Only the shooter knows for certain.

 

Benefit of the doubt.

 

There is enough vagueness in the OP to let anyone support their position. Was the first shot on the far side of the stage from the KDs, was it something that was more likely an AD, except the shooter was in the process of aiming and therefore gets a pass, was the target on the other side of the stage where the shooter would have had to move to engage it? Can't tell.

 

So if the shooter has an 'engage 'till down' description, and wants to claim his first wild shot was really the re-engagement, that's on him. If he sweeps five straight, then it's likely he would have swept six straight as well.

 

But if there was a required order of engagement in the stage description, then sure -- the 'make-up' shot for the failed target would have to be in the correct sequence, whether first, last, or middle. Otherwise, it's not re-engaging that specific target at the appropriate point in the string.

 

Does that mean some shooters would work the system to their advantage? Sure. But an SHB that could keep anyone from slipping through a loose gate would get pretty big.

 

 

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Just now, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Was answering a question — you know, going with the Socratic method. 

 

Your references to "wrong target type" and "benefit of doubt" in relation to the quoted hypothetical question make no sense whatsoever....

IMO., they are completely irrelevant to that situation.

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Might need more popcorn! If I'm the spotter and the shot is clearly over the top of the downed target, I consider it a hit. If no gravel moves anywhere near the target as in he shot the berm--it's a miss and needs to be re-engaged. JMHO  Shooting where it was should be an obvious hit in the dirt over the top of the downed target.

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1 minute ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Might need more popcorn! If I'm the spotter and the shot is clearly over the top of the downed target, I consider it a hit. If no gravel moves anywhere near the target as in he shot the berm--it's a miss and needs to be re-engaged. JMHO  Shooting where it was should be an obvious hit in the dirt over the top of the downed target.

And then I'm sure there would be discussion!!

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For PWB, the situation in the OP is exactly from the Georgia State Match.  For the OP, is it A, or B or something else?

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That shot was NOT a miss:
"A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm..."
SHB p.21

Thanks PWB. That proves my point that we can't judge or assume intent. Just because I didn't hit the rifle target I was aiming at, doesn't mean I get a miss. I get a P for that round hitting the wrong like target.

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6 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

For PWB, the situation in the OP is exactly from the Georgia State Match.  For the OP, is it A, or B or something else?

 

There is a piece of information that is missing from the OP. In what order were the shotgun targets to be engaged?

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19 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Your references to "wrong target type" and "benefit of doubt" in relation to the quoted hypothetical question make no sense whatsoever....

IMO., they are completely irrelevant to that situation.

Sorry you feel that way. Wasn’t disagreeing with anything you said; was pointing out that the SHB gives BOD in other situations, so BOD would be reasonable in this situation as well. Not that ‘wrong target type’ applied. Didn’t intend to be confusing. 

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17 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

For PWB, the situation in the OP is exactly from the Georgia State Match.  For the OP, is it A, or B or something else?

If this is from the Georgia match then I would venture the answer was A.

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Here's a situation for the "X shots fired...X KD's down" group:
 

SG round count is +6

"Engage the 6 shotgun targets from left >-> right"

Target #6 is already down (for whatever reason)
Shooter 
misses the first shot at the left target (#1).

Re-engages and knocks it down.

Next 4 shots take down #'s 2, 3, 4, & 5 (SIX shots fired...SIX KD's down)

IF that first shot (a MISS on #1 until it was re-engaged and knocked down) counts as a HIT (i.e. "shoot where it was") on target #6, does the shooter get the PROCEDURAL for "Shooting the targets in the wrong order"?

OR

Must the shooter fire a 7th round downrange to negate ALL penalties??

Like I said in my response, it depends on the stage instructions and whether or not the OP happened exactly as written. 

  In your above hypothetical scenario, the first sg target has a designated target that HAS to be on target one. There is no guessing shooter intent as to the target it is supposed to be on. 

  In the OP (if written correctly) the first shot does not HAVE to be on the first kd. The first shot could be on target 6 and imo would count.

 

My opinion is 2 different situations. In the OP, 6 shots downrange, 6 targets down. No call

 

In your hypothetical, the first round HAS to go to target 1, therefore 7 shots needed downrange.

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Target #6 is already down (for whatever reason)
Shooter 
misses the first shot at the left target (#1).

Re-engages and knocks it down.

I always assumed that if there's a specific sequence for KD targets then misses are made up after the sequence and not right after the missed shot. But based on your statement above I assume now that misses can be made up anytime, also within the sequence?

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Just now, Equanimous Phil said:

I always assumed that if there's a specific sequence for KD targets then misses are made up after the sequence and not right after the missed shot. But based on your statement above I assume now that misses can be made up anytime, also within the sequence?

It's pretty common to have no order for shotgun targets.  At least it's the practice in most of the south east USA.

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28 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Like I said in my response, it depends on the stage instructions and whether or not the OP happened exactly as written. 

  In your above hypothetical scenario, the first sg target has a designated target that HAS to be on target one. There is no guessing shooter intent as to the target it is supposed to be on. 

  In the OP (if written correctly) the first shot does not HAVE to be on the first kd. The first shot could be on target 6 and imo would count.

 

My opinion is 2 different situations. In the OP, 6 shots downrange, 6 targets down. No call

 

In your hypothetical, the first round HAS to go to target 1, therefore 7 shots needed downrange.

Like it — basically, what I said. 

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I'll give the scenario for the origin of my question.  +4 shotgun, any order.  Shooter moves to position to shoot shotgun targets.  Target one is down.  Shooter fires two shots, target 3 goes down.  Shooter loads and fires two more shots, targets 2 and 4 go down.  Shooter starts to leave but everyone starts screaming you have to fire another round.  Shooter argues the wire wizards say four shots fired, four targets down, next shooter.  Who wins?

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13 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I'll give the scenario for the origin of my question.  +4 shotgun, any order.  Shooter moves to position to shoot shotgun targets.  Target one is down.  Shooter fires two shots, target 3 goes down.  Shooter loads and fires two more shots, targets 2 and 4 go down.  Shooter starts to leave but everyone starts screaming you have to fire another round.  Shooter argues the wire wizards say four shots fired, four targets down, next shooter.  Who wins?

I don't see how anyone could say "one more" in that case without trying to guess what you were shooting at. I'll say this though...you can't really just use the phrase "4 shots, 4 targets down". It depends on the scenario and instructions. There can't be a blanket call for the OP question. 

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15 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I'll give the scenario for the origin of my question.  +4 shotgun, any order.  Shooter moves to position to shoot shotgun targets.  Target one is down.  Shooter fires two shots, target 3 goes down.  Shooter loads and fires two more shots, targets 2 and 4 go down.  Shooter starts to leave but everyone starts screaming you have to fire another round.  Shooter argues the wire wizards say four shots fired, four targets down, next shooter.  Who wins?

If, for safety sake, we say don't shoot the downed SG target...then the shooter could have seen the downed SG target and fired of a round quickly to "count" as the round fired for the downed SG target. Where he/she was aiming is irrelevant. 

 

Why is it hard to believe that the shooter wouldn't expend his/her "downed SG target shot" near the first SG target that he/she wants to KD first?

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't see how anyone could say "one more" in that case without trying to guess what you were shooting at. I'll say this though...you can't really just use the phrase "4 shots, 4 targets down". It depends on the scenario and instructions. There can't be a blanket call for the OP question. 

 

 

You have apparently not been reading this thread or the earlier one.  That is exactly what many are saying.  Six shots fired, six shots down, next shooter.  That is the mantra.

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

You have apparently not been reading this thread or the earlier one.  That is exactly what many are saying.  Six shots fired, six shots down, next shooter.  That is the mantra.

Wow...okay. 

 

Actually I did. 

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Wow...okay. 

 

Actually I did. 

You posted while I was typing.  I added the quote to make it clear I was referring to a different poster.

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