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WTC - Shotgun Target Falls Down During Rifle and Pistol Sequence.


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I posted this before the EOT and didn't get an answer and I can't find the original posting.  PWB on the wire and a Black Pin at a match gave different answers and it was referred to the ROC.  As far as I know it was never decided or answered.

 

Scenario is rifle and pistol are shot correctly.  There are 6 shotgun targets.  During the rifle and pistol strings, one of the SG targets fell, so only 5 are standing.  The shooter goes to shoot the first SG round and clearly misses all the SG targets.  The shooter then proceeds to knock down the remaining 5 SG targets with 5 shots.  The shooter has now shot 6 SG rounds and all six SG targets are down.   

 

A - The shooter is done, 6 rounds fired, six SG targets are down.  

 

or

 

B - The shooter must shoot one more round to make up for the clear miss.

 

Either way is OK with me.  There are arguments for both.  I just want to be consistent on the call.

 

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6 shots fired. 6 targets down. Nothing to call except “ Next shooter”

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A shotgun target being down when the shooter starts the shotgun string means it just has to have a shot safely fired to "engage"  the target.   Whether the shooter fired EXACTLY where it was before it fell, or off to the side by an inch,  or off to the side by a mile, it doesn't matter.  If it was a safe shot, it's OK, otherwise apply the penalty that declared it unsafe.

 

6 rounds fired, 6 targets down.  Like Hoss said, No Call.

 

good luck, GJ

 

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28 minutes ago, Hoss said:

6 shots fired. 6 targets down. Nothing to call except “ Next shooter”

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

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2 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

I’d agree 100% that it needs to be ruled on and settled.  

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Why is this so difficult to understand?

We DO NOT score on intent - we score on RESULTS.

 

Perhaps the shooters FIRST shot (supposed miss) was their engagement of the downed target.

And since we are specifically instructed to NEVER shoot a downed target - a MISS of the shotgun targets is the correct course of action.

 

It does NOT matter why the targets are down.

Hurricane, earthquake or someone forgot to reset them after the last shooter.

 

Six shots fired - six targets down.

 

Next shooter.

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4 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

A P?  Shouldn't it be a MISS at worst?

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9 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Why is this so difficult to understand?

We DO NOT score on intent - we score on RESULTS.

 

Perhaps the shooters FIRST shot (supposed miss) was their engagement of the downed target.

And since we are specifically instructed to NEVER shoot a downed target - a MISS of the shotgun targets is the correct course of action.

 

It does NOT matter why the targets are down.

Hurricane, earthquake or someone forgot to reset them after the last shooter.

 

Six shots fired - six targets down.

 

Next shooter.

Great!!!  That is your opinion.  If it is the rule it needs to be clear and unequivocal.  It is not or the topic would not keep coming up.  It was a member of the ROC that called this on me.

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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5 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

A P?  Shouldn't it be a MISS at worst?

P or miss that is not the point.  The point is is six shots fired, six targets down actually the RULE.

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14 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

So by this member of the ROC's opinion.

 

I would ask the following;

If the shotgun target was a FLYER instead of a falling plate AND the flyer comes out broken.

I fire the required number of shots and I do so at the appropriate position and in the appropriate direction; but my shot is not responsible for the flyer breaking - are you scoring me with a miss?

 

If they answer NO; I would challenge them to explain the difference in RESULT between the flyer and the knockdown.

If they answer YES, they should immediately be removed from the ROC.

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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5 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Great!!!  That is your opinion.  If it is the rule it needs to be clear and unequivocal.  It is not or the topic would not keep coming up.

Its NOT my opinion.

Its the rule.

Just because someone is in a position of authority (your ROC member) does not mean they are infallible.

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Typical 10-10-4 stage.  The shooter shoots at the first two shotgun targets and they are still standing.  He then shoots the last two and they go down.  While reloading the wind blows the first two down.  Show me a rule that says four shots fired, four targets down next shooter.

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24 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Great!!!  That is your opinion.  If it is the rule it needs to be clear and unequivocal.  It is not or the topic would not keep coming up.  It was a member of the ROC that called this on me.

I have found that just because he is a member of the ROC doesn't mean he anything other than a title !!!!!!!!!

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We cannot complain about the size of the rulebook and then demand a codification/ example of every possible outcome.

 

The rules sometimes must be discerned by a combination of factors - but this discernment does not make them any less a rule.

 

So we use the following to arrive at a conclusion.

(And I am paraphrasing because I don't care enough to find the citations).

1. Once the stage begins - we do not stop shooters unless it is required for safety.

So a shooter owns and must be allowed to complete their stage.

 

2.  A target malfunction that is not a safety concern (and any target falling for reason other than gunshot, is by definition a malfunction) does not warrant a stopppage and the shooter will be instructed to continue with the stage as if the target remains and shoot where it was.

 

3. Because a downed target may present unforeseen angles and splashback - a shooter is instructed to NEVER shoot at a downed target.

 

4. An engagement of a downed/ missing/ broken target by shooting "where it was" is scored as a hit (benefit of a doubt always goes to the shooter).

 

5. Shooters are expected to comply with the round requirements as noted in stage instruction.

 

The above expectations/ rules combined with the miss flow chart give us a clear answer and support that the RULING of six shots - six targets down is correct.

 

A falling SG target or a broken bird (that occurs by any event other than gunshot)  is a target failure/ malfunction.

 

The shooter complied with all requirements of the stage.

Shot the required number of rounds to satify the stage instruction.

Safely engaged the malfunction by shooting downrange and NOT at the downed target.

6 shots fired - 6 targets down.

You cannot penalize a shooter for something out of the shooters control.

 

And the most important rule application of all in this scenario is "Don't be a hardass".

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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So there are 6 sg targets. One is down. What position? If the first round was aimed in its direction l would say he was good. If however, if the first shot was aimed at one of the other targets, then he still needs to engage the down target. May end up being a judgement call by the spotters.

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2 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The rules sometimes must be discerned by a combination of factors - but this discernment does not make them any less a rule.

 

It is when one person's "discernment" is different from someone else's "discernment."

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1 minute ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

It is when one person's "discernment" is different from someone else's "discernment."

One person is right and the others an idiot.

I (and I know you well enough to know you feel the same) do not assign equal value to the opinions or discernment of idiots.

 

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They are fellow shooters that do not "interpret" the rules the same as other shooters.  That does not make them idiots.  They are ROC members that do not apparently agree.  I don't think any of them are idiots.  This is an issue that comes up frequently and is debated incessantly.  It calls for a simple black and white statement even if it just a pinned note at the top of the wire.

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13 minutes ago, Uncle Ethan # 94321 said:

So there are 6 sg targets. One is down. What position? If the first round was aimed in its direction l would say he was good. If however, if the first shot was aimed at one of the other targets, then he still needs to engage the down target. May end up being a judgement call by the spotters.

 

Clear miss.  Not even close.

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My recollection of ROII is that if a target fails or falls to the ground, the shooter should be told to "Shoot it where it was."  "Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets."  The next paragraph concerning prop failure, which seems to also discuss targets states "The shooter will not be penalized for a prop failure."   All seems pretty clear to me, shooter shoots where target was and is not penalized.

Edited by Sarge
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What target did he have a so-called "clear miss" on?  If it was on a standing target, then it would still be standing, wouldn't it?.  If it was to engage the fallen target which was down when the string began or even from wind or "collateral hits" on neighboring targets, then he does not have to even come close to the target to engage it.  And thus earn the hit because target is down.

 

The rules for Knockdowns ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT than for stationary targets.   A stationary target never gets a hit called when it is missed.   A knockdown that falls gets a hit with any sort of engagement (attempt to fire).

 

good luck, GJ

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47 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

What target did he have a so-called "clear miss" on?  If it was on a standing target, then it would still be standing, wouldn't it?.  If it was to engage the fallen target which was down when the string began or even from wind or "collateral hits" on neighboring targets, then he does not have to even come close to the target to engage it.  And thus earn the hit because target is down.

 

The rules for Knockdowns ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT than for stationary targets.   A stationary target never gets a hit called when it is missed.   A knockdown that falls gets a hit with any sort of engagement (attempt to fire).

 

good luck, GJ

^^^

This my understanding also.   The 'Clear Miss' term is used for stationary targets that are still standing.

 

The 'Clear Miss' term was not intending to be used for SG KD targets.

 

As stated, that's how I understand the usage of the term.

 

..........Widder

 

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4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

This is not the same call as the ROC made  a few years back.

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Just because someone is a member of the ROC, that doesn’t automatically make them right, nor does it mean that they are infallible!!

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20 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Whats missing are the stage instructions for shooting the targets. As in left to right, outside outside. And which target was the down target when he started.

Why do we have to make this hard.  If a sequence is not indicated, shoot until all are down - standard rules.   It doesn't matter which one was down prior to the initiation of the SG sequence.  A clean miss means A CLEAN MISS.   There is no possibility that the shot would hit a shotgun target.

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4 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is BS.  I shot this scenario last month.  A member of the ROC on my posse said six shots fired, six shots down is not the rule and I got a P for not re-engaging the fallen plate.  This needs a BLACK and WHITE decision.  No more interpretation, no more guesses.  

The first time I remember this being called was at an annual. When the shooter came to the line , one sg target was down. SG was last. Big S, not his real name, and I called it a miss when the shooter refused to shoot where it was. This was brought up on the wire. The ROC said it was a no call. So Larson should have had a no call.

 

I'm sick of clarifications that change. Put it in the shb and stop this stuff.

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I  thought this was settled, but I'm new here. Shoot where it was. Well where was it? At least somewhere "that-a-way" which at most means within the 170.

 

But I did a search and found this:

Which seamed pretty clear the first time PWB posted in it, but then the conversation went a bit sideways. And this is from even longer ago:

I'll be honest. I'm in favor of "shoot where it was" combined with "benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter", 'cuz cowboy.

 

Which means...

 

Targets 1, 2, 3, 4 but order not specified.

 

Hey, target 1 falls before I get to it because God smiled! So I'm shooting it 2, 1, reload, 3, 4. But I'll be honest; my shot at 1 is going to have some milliseconds shaved off of it. Because it is just going "that-a-way."

 

So, is that the problem? Is this why this has been a question for years?

Edited by John Kloehr
Change 2nd "1" to "2" because it is what I meant
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