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Lead Poison Lar
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You shot with me at Tennessee…I loaded 9 grains 3F BY WEIGHT… and more than met the smoke Factor - :ph34r: 

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You shot with me at Tennessee…I loaded 9 grains 3F BY WEIGHT… and more than met the smoke Factor - :ph34r: 

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett


You may be correct.

 

 Perhaps PWB and the Rules Committee will confirm your statement.  It would prevent confusion.

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PLUS ONE for Scarlett you betcha.

 

9 or 9+ by weight of 3f APP more than makes the smoke standard.  Easy Peasy.  Strongly suggest using a filler.

 

Burn Through:  Oh yes.  APP in like loadings makes a lot more smoke than GOEX.

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10 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


You may be correct.

 

 Perhaps PWB and the Rules Committee will confirm your statement.  It would prevent confusion.

 

For the same volume of powder APP definitely makes more smoke than Goex.

 

I shot the BP side match at Wartrace with Scarlett and there would have been no question about her loads meeting the smoke standard

 

9 grains of APP works out to about 0.8 cc

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Smoke but no flame?  Thats half the fun of shooting BP, trying to set stuff on fire! Kind of like this.  Full disclosure this is 30+ grains of 2f Schutzen.

Tri State Cropped.jpg

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10 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


You may be correct.

 

 Perhaps PWB and the Rules Committee will confirm your statement.  It would prevent confusion.

 

You will not get that from the ROC. The standard load and the testing procedures are outlined in the SHB.

 

You can see some testing results that @Capt. George Baylor SASS#24287L did back around 2011: http://www.curtrich.com/0811SmokeStandard.html

 

He also tested some 32 rounds in 2013: http://www.curtrich.com/201310smokestandardtest.htm

 

But even he notes the following:

Quote

DISCLAIMER:
Due to the subjectivity of the test, the inability to calibrate absolutely, and the variations due to weather, light, and conditions, no guarantees are offered or implied that any marginal load (the one below which failure occurred) will pass at any given time. Do not extrapolate data and apply it to similar but not exactly the same powders. For example, Swiss 3F passes with 1.0 CC in the test load. Swiss 2F might or might not pass. if in doubt, increase minimum passing loads by 10-15% margin.

 

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2 minutes ago, Iron Pony said:

Smoke but no flame?  Thats half the fun of shooting BP, trying to set stuff on fire! Kind of like this.  Full disclosure this is 30+ grains of 2f Schutzen.

Tri State Cropped.jpg

 

Not sure what year but the call went out at Colo State BP one year at Rifle.  All Males front and center, females about face.  Straw bales were  smoking.

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Dutch, the Pemi Peacemakers had a couple stages with lighweight curtains and or wash hanging on a line type props.  Several of us got in "trouble" for ummm, taking a step back and letting what might happen, happen.

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15 hours ago, Lead Poison Lar said:

How many grains of APP is needed in a 38 Special case is needed to satisfy the smoke requirement per SASS handbook?

 

The correct answer is:

The test is subjective. You need to load enough powder so that, in the event that your rounds are tested, the people doing the testing of your rounds can determine that your loads produce at least the same amount of smoke as the standard round that they are using in the comparative test.

 

from the SHB

Quote

Through testing of various loads, it has been determined that 1cc of blackpowder, in either a .32, .38, .44 or .45 caliber case, all produce approximately the same amount of smoke (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements). Before deciding on any reduced loads, a competitor should test them to ensure they meet the base line standards.

 

Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowder substitute such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, or comparable propellants intended for muzzle loading firearms.

 

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17 minutes ago, Iron Pony said:

Dutch, the Pemi Peacemakers had a couple stages with lighweight curtains and or wash hanging on a line type props.  Several of us got in "trouble" for ummm, taking a step back and letting what might happen, happen.

 

Memory not what it use to be, but think it was at the laundry.  Stage called for shooting through the laundry  (shed) to targets beyond.  A bunch of straw was stored  inside and set to one side.  Not the most pleasant smell. 

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"Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of blackpowder."  SHB pg 9

 

On a humid, still day, where the smoke hangs, especially when shooting towards the sun, low powder loads will suffice.  In those conditions, even smokeless powder starts to look smokey...

 

But, when there is less humidity and a bit of a breeze, sun behind you, a low powder load may get you in trouble.

 

This happened to one of our .32 shooters.  As the day wore on, what seemed fine in the early morning hours got challenged on later stages and berms.  

 

I'd rather load over the standard by a bit, than under and and get called on it.  

 

 

Here's what 1.3cc APP shooting with the sun coming right over the berm looks like

19783755_ScreenShot10-14-21at01_33PM.pnG.7ba411d958e456f3c2a76da45730e9d4.pnG

Edited by McCandless
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As others have said, the handbook calls for 15gr or 1cc as the minimum.  Under the testing section questionable rounds should be fired in comparison to a 38 special loaded with 1cc of 2fg Goex. 

 

I have seen a few frontier cartridge shooters shooting 38 short colt out of the revolvers and have serious doubts about their ammo meeting the minimum smoke requirement.  Then again I am often comparing their smoke output to my 44-40s loaded with 2.2cc.

Edited by July Smith
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To find a red or black set, you're going to have to use a way back machine like ebay, estate sales, etc.

 

They are measured in cubic inches, if memory serves.

 

TheSe sets have measurements in between CCs. 

 

Date from the 70's.

 

IMG_20210415_053154911.thumb.jpg.e9e87495197f43e3689f6297d0db4bdd.jpg

IMG_20210415_053250184.thumb.jpg.7433b66f123e81c9e3a4bacc2e56a3f2.jpg

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On 10/13/2021 at 6:10 PM, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

At least 1cc lee dipper.  1.3 fills up the case, it is what I use

Rafe

My load also, I use croger yellow corn meal as a filler and seat 105 gr. Chey cast coated bullets just barely compressing. Great load and very accurate really easy clean up and absolutely no leading.

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Lol One year I shot the whole year .

With my Henry 1860 and a single shot Long barrel H&R 12ga .

And a Pair of 1851 Colt Navy's .

With Goex Pinnacle .

I was so slow it just about made them pass out ! LOL 

It was so much fun :P

Screenshot_20191214-164809_Photos.thumb.jpg.6fe9b572f8feb84139ae4f195f70a06a.jpg

 

 

 

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There is also a third generation of lee dippers...they were the OLD metal ones.

 

6 hours ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

I have a set of Lee Powder Measure Kit the Red Ones.

They are in Grains .

 

I just double checked with the lee loader forum, and it looks like the red/black ones are in fact done in cubic inches.

 

They even post the match for converting the cubic inch numbering on the red/black to the CCs for yellow. I'll save you the trouble...

 

Here are the conversions for the red/black set to CCs (approximation)
Red
Black -----Yellow

CI-------CC
0.020-------0.33
0.039-------0.64
0.052-------0.85
0.065-------1.07
0.069-------1.13
0.108-------1.77
0.129-------2.11
0.141-------2.31
0.167-------2.74
0.190-------3.11
0.205-------3.36
0.230-------3.77
0.258-------4.23

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Howdy Dippers,

 

I've never used Lee Dippers; however, for those of us who need the reminder: CC's and CI's are a measure of volume. On the other hand, grains are a measure of weight. Therefore, a powder dipper can't be labeled in grains as that will be different for each powder used as the density and weight of powders is different from one formulation/brand to the next. Unless I've missed something.

 

Identifying as Capt. Obvious,

Rev. Chase

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On 10/13/2021 at 8:30 PM, Burn Through said:

So this powder makes more smoke than GOEX ??  I guess I will have to try some

A93C7871-757D-45C8-8C7F-2D6BB769197D.jpeg.74dfd8fd956105c831bc8117b1a9d0a1.jpeg
this was at EOT. First two shotshells! Isn’t it awesome! :wub: 40gr by weight 3F APP and an ounce of shot. 

Hugs!

Scarlett

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On 10/15/2021 at 10:09 AM, Reverend P. Babcock Chase said:

Howdy Dippers,

 

I've never used Lee Dippers; however, for those of us who need the reminder: CC's and CI's are a measure of volume. On the other hand, grains are a measure of weight. Therefore, a powder dipper can't be labeled in grains as that will be different for each powder used as the density and weight of powders is different from one formulation/brand to the next. Unless I've missed something.

 

Identifying as Capt. Obvious,

Rev. Chase


Black Powder is often measured in “grains by volume”!

 

If you enlarge my avatar, you’ll get an idea of what 30 gr. of FFFg real black powder (by volume) out of an 1860 Colt revolver looks like on a sunny autumn day.

 

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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4 hours ago, Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 said:

This!  Almost fill the brass and crunch in the bullet.

 

Chancy

The manufacturer of APP advises this practice may result in increased pressures and erratic velocities.  I load APP to the base of the bullet and get ample smoke.

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