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vertical 170 rule


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Shooting a stage on Sat with split shotgun positions I raised the muzzle of my 97 vertical to clear the prop front to move to my right to the next shotgun position.  After I was done with the stage I was told that I almost broke the 170 to the vertical.  My question is this;  we move around the bays with guns in the vertical with muzzles at shoulders or higher, no mention of a 170.  When we stage a rifle or shotgun in a vertical rack to move down range the motion of setting the but first in the rack to achieve a good angle breaks the vertical 170.  I am just looking to start a conversation here but it seems to me there are some conflict here.  I also would like to ask about the 170 rule for three sided facades for stages.  If shooting a stage with three sides of an octigon and shooting through three windows the 170 rotates with the shooter.  When at the side positions the 170 extends back putting people at the loading table in the 170 and also the counters can be in the 170 also just trying to get a good view.

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7 minutes ago, Aimlesslee, sass #49904 said:

... the 170 rotates with the shooter.

NO! The 170 is fixed to the stage.

 

There is a document floating around which lays out a common-sense approach to the rule as far as loading, carts, holsters, staging, and more. If I find it soon, I will post it here.

Edited by John Kloehr
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170 degree cones off of the firing line,  IMHO        GW

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1 minute ago, John Kloehr said:

NO! The 170 is fixed to the stage.

 

There is a document floating around which lays out a common-sense approach tot he rule as far as loading, carts, holsters, and more. If I find it soon, I will post it here.

 

The 170º rule – Common Sense Approach

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While the rule is there, I’ve never seen a vertical 170 violation called. 
 

i saw a guy once not have a intertial trigger reset, he banged the buttstock on the shelf to reset. I told him to not do that again, he asked why, I told him it broke the 170 vertically, and in my opinion was unsafe.  He did not agree.  He was a bit miffed at me. I don’t regularly shoot with him, and in fact haven’t seen him in years. Had he done it again with me timing I would have SDQed him. 

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20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

SxS shooter shucking hulls...

 

It's been called.

I have no doubt it’s been called, I’ve just never seen it called.
 

I’ve warned many shooters that they were 169&1/2.  Most of the time 170 violations are VERY brief. Usually think did he or didn’t he????? BOD comes into play. (But as PWB says, “no doubt, no benefit!” 

 

you have TOed many more shooters than I. How many 170 violations have you called? (I’ve called maybe 3,  several warnings) to clarify, these were not vertical 170 violation calls. 

Edited by Hoss
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3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

you have TOed many more shooters than I. How many 170 violations have you called? (I’ve called maybe 3,  several warnings) to clarify, these were not vertical 170 violation calls. 

Lost count a long time ago...given many warnings at Monthlies more times than not as a courtesy to new(er) shooters.

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We are way too hesitant to call shooters for violations.  Vertical guns break the 170. Carrying your guns from the stage in a lazy fashion with the SxS muzzle forward (and broken open of course) breaks the 170. I’m so tired of some shooters attitudes - it’s unloaded…. You know it’s unloaded… blah blah blah. 
 

It’s really quite simple. Break the 170? SDQ. New shooter - warning unless it’s egregious. It’s not subjective…  If I’m timing and look down your barrel or you otherwise break 170…it’s a SDQ. I don’t want to be nor do I like being hard ass but complacency is dangerous. Not understanding gun safety is dangerous. 
 

Hugs,

Scarlett

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         One of the hardest calls I ever made was a 170 degree violation at a State Shoot. I was timing a good fast shooter that may have won his category at state and I had to give him a SDQ.  He was shooting rifle, shotgun, pistols with a lot of movement and the shotgun was to placed on a hay bale pointed downrange.  When he discarded the shotgun, he tossed it across the bale and proceeded to shoot his pistols and the shotgun was open and empty with the barrels pointing at about 190 degrees to the firing line. I let him finish the stage to get the time and another shooter started to take the shotgun to the unload table and I stopped him from touching the shotgun and told him to wait for the owner to come get it. I brought the cowboy over to shotgun and showed it to him and told him he was getting a SDQ for the angle he set it down. He looked the the gun, looked at me and the spotters, shook his head and agreed with us.  We then warned the rest of the posse not to lay their shotgun across the bale but completely on the bale pointed down range.

Sometimes, you have to make the tough calls and I try to make the shooter understand what happened so he does not do it again. I have seen shooters trying to speed thru a stage and discarding a gun quickly and watch it fall off the table or fall to the ground as they threw it at the place it was to be returned instead of placing it there and get a SDQ. They say speed kills, and I have seen it wreck matches for good shooters. Going fast is great as long as it is done safely. 

Edited by Maddog McCoy SASS #5672
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The vertical 170 is approached a lot when shooting stages with windows or doorways and movement in between them. If folks would just learn to step back instead of hugging the walls, movement would be so much easier. I've called it on many shooters and given many warnings as well. Often with those same prop's people break the 170 with their pistols, again because they are hugging the wall and they have to turn the pistol to accommodate their movement to the next position. 

Edited by Tully Mars
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Shooters are accustomed to carrying the long guns vertically to and from carts and tables.  It’s a hard habit to break, apparently, when moving with a rifle or shotgun during the course of fire.  Still, that’s the rule.

 

I agree with Scarlett on gun handling.  I was swept with an open shotgun at my home club’s match.  I don’t enjoy assessing any penalty but we have to be safe.

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If you think about the 170 being only applied from the time that the shooter leaves the loading table until the time the shooter leave the unloading table, it makes sense as that is the only time that the guns have any chance of being loaded.  To the Loading Table, and from the Unloading Table, the guns are empty with actions open, so having the muzzles pointed straight up poses no risk.

 

I too have had to give a shooter an SDQ at a state match for breaking the 170 with the shotgun.  Last gun of the stage, shot it clean, but was having shoulder issues and put the butt of the gun on the rest at the end of the string, action open, but with the gun clearly pointing at about 190 degrees to the firing line.  He knew it, once pointed out, and didn't complain, but it did suck having to do it.

 

Personally, I have learned to step back one step before moving to the next position.  I have seen too many folks bang their barrels on the sides of props because the leaned forward as far as possible through the window/door/whatever and turned to move without clearing the obstacle.  That's when chaos can rapidly ensue.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

         One of the hardest calls I ever made was a 170 degree violation at a State Shoot. I was timing a good fast shooter that may have won his category at state and I had to give him a SDQ.  He was shooting rifle, shotgun, pistols with a lot of movement and the shotgun was to placed on a hay bale pointed downrange.  When he discarded the shotgun, he tossed it across the bale and proceeded to shoot his pistols and the shotgun was open and empty with the barrels pointing at about 190 degrees to the firing line. I let him finish the stage to get the time and another shooter started to take the shotgun to the unload table and I stopped him from touching the shotgun and told him to wait for the owner to come get it. I brought the cowboy over to shotgun and showed it to him and told him he was getting a SDQ for the angle he set it down. He looked the the gun, looked at me and the spotters, shook his head and agreed with us.  We then warned the rest of the posse not to lay their shotgun across the bale but completely on the bale pointed down range.

Sometimes, you have to make the tough calls and I try to make the shooter understand what happened so he does not do it again. I have seen shooters trying to speed thru a stage and discarding a gun quickly and watch it fall off the table or fall to the ground as they threw it at the place it was to be returned instead of placing it there and get a SDQ. They say speed kills, and I have seen it wreck matches for good shooters. Going fast is great as long as it is done safely. 

Yes, that’s an easier call to make as the shotgun is sitting there. The .003 second maybe/probably broke the 170 are harder. 

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34 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

If you think about the 170 being only applied from the time that the shooter leaves the loading table until the time the shooter leave the unloading table

It's actually "at the loading table"...you can break the 170 at the loading table.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

When is it not true?

 

Quote

 

The 170º rule, by definition, DOES NOT always apply to/from/at the loading/unloading tables.

This is due to the wide variations in range/stage setups...it does on some ranges, if they are on a common firing line with the stage itself (e.g. LT / STAGE1 / ULT...LT / STAGE2 / ULT...).

The 170° Rule

The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in any direction)....

SOURCE

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16 hours ago, Hoss said:

While the rule is there, I’ve never seen a vertical 170 violation called. 
 

i saw a guy once not have a intertial trigger reset, he banged the buttstock on the shelf to reset. I told him to not do that again, he asked why, I told him it broke the 170 vertically, and in my opinion was unsafe.  He did not agree.  He was a bit miffed at me. I don’t regularly shoot with him, and in fact haven’t seen him in years. Had he done it again with me timing I would have SDQed him. 

A shooter on my posse at EOT this year got a SDQ for breaking the vertical 170. He saved a dropped gun, but the muzzle broke the vertical 170 in the process.

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54 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

SOURCE

Yes...sorry. Of course I should have been more precise in my comment. The 170 does apply relative to the loading table.

 

Primarily coming into play when holstering one's revolvers.

 

Phantom

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17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lost count a long time ago...given many warnings at Monthlies more times than not as a courtesy to new(er) shooters.

I've also heard many times a warning given even to "seasoned" shooters. They also almost always mention it at the safety meetings at all the clubs I shoot it.

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33 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes...sorry. Of course I should have been more precise in my comment. The 170 does apply relative to the loading table.

 

Primarily coming into play when holstering one's revolvers.

 

Phantom

Not all loading tables are on a common firing line. Around here they are mostly perpendicular to the firing line and facing a side berm. There could very well be a loading/unloading officer within the 170. Think of a table facing a side berm and the officer is standing at the end of the table to inspect your guns. That person is well within your 170.....so you can't make that blanket statement as well.

 

It would probably be better to say at the loading and unloading table make sure you don't sweep anyone when handling your firearms. 

 

Stan

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41 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Not all loading tables are on a common firing line. Around here they are mostly perpendicular to the firing line and facing a side berm. There could very well be a loading/unloading officer within the 170. Think of a table facing a side berm and the officer is standing at the end of the table to inspect your guns. That person is well within your 170.....so you can't make that blanket statement as well.

 

It would probably be better to say at the loading and unloading table make sure you don't sweep anyone when handling your firearms. 

 

Stan

I was at a perpendicular ULT at a match a while back. It was a smallish table, really only room for one person. The UTO solved that problem by walking around to the other side of the table!  I told him he couldn’t stand there. He moved. I finished unloading, put my guns away, come back for posse chores and he was back on the other side of the table. Shooters just happily unloading while looking at him. He  Even brought a stool! Some people have ZERO sense! 

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56 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Not all loading tables are on a common firing line. Around here they are mostly perpendicular to the firing line and facing a side berm. There could very well be a loading/unloading officer within the 170. Think of a table facing a side berm and the officer is standing at the end of the table to inspect your guns. That person is well within your 170.....so you can't make that blanket statement as well.

 

It would probably be better to say at the loading and unloading table make sure you don't sweep anyone when handling your firearms. 

 

Stan

Yes, and like PWB, you are correct and I should have spent more time making clear my thoughts. I often make mistakes due to my desire for brevity...and sometimes we equate the issue of sweeping someone with the 170 rule. 

 

However, in the statement that I was responding to originally, my intent was to say that the 170 concept doesn't start once you've "Left" the loading table. 

 

One cannot control when someone walks by the perpendicular LT (up range side), and therefore there is no way to stop folks from being swept. I'll still stand by the "Blanket" statement that the 170 applies to the LT to those that are also at the loading table...or shall we just simply say that you can't sweep anyone? Again, the culprit usually being holstering the revolvers.

 

Phantom

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Had to DQ a SXS shooter at a regional once. It was not close. He REALLY tipped it up and back.

 

Also seen two shooters get it called on them at Winter Range the one time I got to go. Both 97 shooters.

 

So it does and has been called.

 

Edited by Anvil Al #59168
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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, and like PWB, you are correct and I should have spent more time making clear my thoughts. I often make mistakes due to my desire for brevity...and sometimes we equate the issue of sweeping someone with the 170 rule. 

 

However, in the statement that I was responding to originally, my intent was to say that the 170 concept doesn't start once you've "Left" the loading table. 

 

One cannot control when someone walks by the perpendicular LT (up range side), and therefore there is no way to stop folks from being swept. I'll still stand by the "Blanket" statement that the 170 applies to the LT to those that are also at the loading table...or shall we just simply say that you can't sweep anyone? Again, the culprit usually being holstering the revolvers.

 

Phantom

 

Like Stan said, here in Maryland, all of the loading/unloading tables are perpendicular to the firing line and are set against either sand filled block walls or dirt side berms.  You have to work real hard to get in front of them, but it is possible to be within the 170 if they are on the ends of the table, something we frown upon.

 

That said, I was specifically talking about the "Vertical" 170 as referenced in the title of the thread but, were I to edit that post, I would have changed it to read that it starts when you lay your guns on the loading table and ends when you remove them from the unloading table with further clarification that the 170 for the loading and unloading tables may not be on the same line as the firing line.

 

Even then, there is the problem of folks who are carrying there guns muzzle up, but the happen to be shorter then you and you can end up staring down the muzzle of a rifle or shotgun.  This is also true of those folks who like to set the butt of their long guns on the toes of their boots while waiting in line at the unloading table.

 

As you noted "Don't Sweep Anyone" is the real intent, but the 170 gives everyone a definitive safety line which some folks still have trouble with.

 

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On 10/4/2021 at 1:04 PM, Scarlett said:

We are way too hesitant to call shooters for violations.  Vertical guns break the 170. Carrying your guns from the stage in a lazy fashion with the SxS muzzle forward (and broken open of course) breaks the 170. I’m so tired of some shooters attitudes - it’s unloaded…. You know it’s unloaded… blah blah blah. 
 

It’s really quite simple. Break the 170? SDQ. New shooter - warning unless it’s egregious. It’s not subjective…  If I’m timing and look down your barrel or you otherwise break 170…it’s a SDQ. I don’t want to be nor do I like being hard ass but complacency is dangerous. Not understanding gun safety is dangerous. 
 

Hugs,

Scarlett

 

OK...so how do you suggest one  DOES carry it from the stage?   You are disallowing holding the barrels vertical...because THAT is  breaking the "170".   If you don't hold it vertical, you say one is also breaking the 170 because the SXS muzzles are "forward" .   What does that leave?   (And what exactly IS "forward" once you leave the line/unloading table?  Is it any direction one happens to be moving?  But if it's tilted "backward" or "sideways"  isn't that ALSO breaking the "170"?  So HOW does anyone move a SXS ? You are saying  it can't be vertical, AND can't be angled.)             

 

Seems to me VERTICAL when moving to or from the stage, past other people and so on,  is the only rational/safe method.  

 

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My long guns are always up and canted down range when going from loading table to firing line…and from the firing line to the unloading table. Not hard to do. 
 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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56 minutes ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L said:

My long guns are always up and canted down range when going from loading table to firing line…and from the firing line to the unloading table. Not hard to do. 
 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

I carry mine the same way.

 

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