Difference visually between Lee Factory crimp & Lee seating die

[Quiet Burp]

Hello,

I bought a lot of secondhand reloading gear recently and a lot of its just loose in a box with supposedly some factory crimp dies in the purchase,

just wanting to know how to tell a Lee Factory crimp die apart from a normal Lee Seating Crimp Die?

Is there some tell tale visual signs or do I have to take them apart?

If take apart, what differences am I looking for?

Thank you in advance.

[Yusta B.]

Factory crimp die has no bullet seating stem. I does have a stem to adjust the crimp.

[Quiet Burp]

2 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Factory crimp die has no bullet seating stem. I dies have a stem to adjust the crimp.

 

Now I'm a little more confused?

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Lee-Precision-Carbide-Factory-Crimp/dp/B000N8LFV2

 

[Yusta B.]

34 minutes ago, Quiet Burp said:

 

Now I'm a little more confused?

 

https://www.amazon.com.au/Lee-Precision-Carbide-Factory-Crimp/dp/B000N8LFV2

 

The stem on the bullet seating  die is smaller than the one on the FCD. For whatever reason Lee chose to mark their dies with the caliber and a date code but not the die type. The bullet seating stem will have a concave bottom end similar to bullet shape.

 

[Bluestem Baldy Sass #74045]

See photo for a visual.  The die on the left with the blue tape on top is the factory crimp die.   The die on the right is the bullet seating die.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

The bullet seating die will have a "plunger" inside that mates to the bullet and, ideally, will be the same shape as the bullet tip.  It pushes the bullet into the case.  When you move the  adjustment on the top of the die, you are actually moving the point at which the plunger stops moving up into the die, this setting the bullet depth. Usually, they will rattle when shaken, assuming the adjustment isn't all the way down.

 

The crimp die also has an insert inside, a collet, but it is hollow so that the bullet can push through the collet and the collet only contact the case.  The adjustment changes how deeply the collet will crimp into the case.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The FCD has a Carbide sizing ring

OLG 

[Quiet Burp]

Thanks all, so the LEE FCD is a '4th' stage die is that correct? Using it ads another stage to reloading?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 hours ago, Quiet Burp said:

Thanks all, so the LEE FCD is a '4th' stage die is that correct? Using it ads another stage to reloading?

 Yes-Most seat and crimp on two separate stages.

Especially when using mixed headstamp cases.

OLG 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

21 hours ago, Quiet Burp said:

Thanks all, so the LEE FCD is a '4th' stage die is that correct? Using it ads another stage to reloading?

As OLG said, yes. 
 

I have them in .30 Carbine, .38/357, .44-40 and .45 Colt. The only ones I use are.30 Carbine and .44-40. The combo seat/crimp dies in the others are sufficient. 

["Big Boston"]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:12 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

As OLG said, yes. 
 

I have them in .30 Carbine, .38/357, .44-40 and .45 Colt. The only ones I use are.30 Carbine and .44-40. The combo seat/crimp dies in the others are sufficient. 

 

The combo seat/crimp die works well, until it doesn't. Any time you combine the seating and crimping in one step, the setup is very dependent on the components. Any variation and things go south quickly. 

 

I was seating and crimping 44-40 in one step, and it was working well. I changed to a different mold, bullet sized the same, but there was enough of a variation that things went south fast. Although possible, I think it's poor policy with a progressive. When verifying the setup, it's easier if each stage has only one task, or multiple separate ones. For example, on a 4 stage like the 550:

 

• The first stage FL sizes, expels the fired primer, and seats a new primer. The tasks are not interrelated to an extent that one has any great influence on the other. 
• The second stage expands the neck, bells the mouth, and dispenses the powder. Two separate operations to verify.
• The third stage can be used to seat the bullet, or seat the bullet and crimp. The seating and crimping tasks are very much interrelated. The bullet is still being seated as the crimp is being applied, and therefore the bullet shape and cannelure shape can be interfere with the seating task as the crimp is being applied. It can be made to work, but any variation can cause an error. 
• If you seat only on stage three, stage four is used to crimp. The application of the crimp is on a case with an already seated bullet. The bullet is static, the crimp is applied unencumbered by any bullet movement. In a progressive there is also a  slightly smoother feel to the stroke of the handle. It is subtle, but noticeable.

In my die setup I was using a Redding seat/crimp die.  An excellent die, made to some pretty exact tolerances. Too exact for my combination of components.  The bullets I were using were a 429-200-RF and a 427666, which were around 0.429" out of the mold. I don't have a 429 sizer, so I lubed them with a 430. Seat and crimp in one operation, no issues. I had sold my 429-200-RF, and was using up my stash of previously cast bullets, and had ordered a new 6 cavity 429-200-RF. This mold dropped the bullets a wee bit larger, and they would be sized a bit going though the 430 lube/sizer die. This slight increase in diameter, was enough to cause an issue. 

 

Details: The Redding seat/crimp die is made to guide the neck of the case, center the case, and seat the bullet with no concentricity issues, and apply the crimp at the top of the stroke. But, in order to work as designed, with 427 bullets, the tolerance on the neck portion of the die were such that as the bullet was seating, the bell on the case was being ironed out, and as the newer bullets were a bit larger than 429, it would shave some lead before the crimp was applied. I seem to recall Winchester brass was OK, but Starline was not. The difference between joy and disaster was less than a 0.001" apart. That, IMHO, was too close for Cowboy work. 

 

The solution was to press a LEE seating die into service, and use it for seating only. I first modified the seating stem by flattening the stem to push on the flat meplat of the bullet. Also, IMHO the LEE seating/crimp die has to be the worst such die of all the manufacturers, YMMV, but that is my opinion. So, that solved stage three, and for crimping, I just removed the seating stem from the Redding seat/crimp die and used it for crimping. It irons out the bell before seating, and support the neck while applying the crimp, problem solved. 

 

Like I said, seating and crimping in one operation works well, until it doesn't.

 

BB

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

The combo die works great if your components (brass and bullet)are very uniform.

Otherwise, use two separate dies.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I personally only use a Lee FCD when loading 44/40 and 45/70 .

The both can be loaded with out a FCD .

But I believe I get a better crimp and a more consistent load with the Lee  FCD . 

So Saithe The Rooster   .

[Pee Wee #15785]

I bought 1000 bullets from a local caster, they shoot good but I have to use both a seating die that was ground flat and a FCD to get the to work.  The "ogee" sp. was not constant.  Trying to seat and crimp in one operation had OAL all over the place.

[Slapshot]

On 9/30/2021 at 7:01 PM, Bluestem Baldy Sass #74045 said:

See photo for a visual.  The die on the left with the blue tape on top is the factory crimp die.   The die on the right is the bullet seating die.

Also notice the smooth stem below the knurled part of the die to the threads is longer on the seating die. This is how a visually tell them apart