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The Loading Table/Area -- Rules?


Dusty Devil Dale
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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Can someone quote where an unloading table officer is required?

The strongest I find is page 28:

 

  • Competitors shall unload each of their firearms at the designated unloading area and have them visually inspected to make sure all chambers are empty.

 

Not self-inspection, clearly someone else. And that implies an ULTO. I find no similar wording for an LTO other than the role is defined in the same section as the ULTO.

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12 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I was on Snakebite's posse at an annual match. He said it would be a SDQ for failure to follow loading or unloading procedures.

For who? The shooter or the person that failed to check the shooter?

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21 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Is this supposed to be somehow less safe than a Colt or Colt Clone?

 

Randy

 

I think you're making my point that some guns we are using are not safe if dropped, therefore we need to be sure there is not a live round under the hammer.  What guns they happen to be is irrelevant. 

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On 9/17/2021 at 8:16 PM, Snakebite said:

PAGE 89 in the ROI pretty much makes it clear that there is a Loading Table Officer and what his/her duties are.  It has been "Clarified" to allow if a Loading table officer is not present that one of the shooters in line can act as the LTO...

 

On 9/17/2021 at 8:42 PM, Snakebite said:

….One of the Posse Marshals duties is to see to it that all positions are filled. THEY MUST ENSURE.....Posse Marshals cannot perform all of the Range Officer functions themselves, but must ensure Range Officer assignments are made and the rules and regulations are being followed….Shooters should always know the condition of their firearms and should never depend upon the Loading and Unloading Officers to ensure their firearms are correctly loaded and unloaded. The Loading and Unloading Officers are simply an added measure of safety. A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties.

 

6 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I was on Snakebite's posse at an annual match. He said it would be a SDQ for failure to follow loading or unloading procedures.

I can’t agree with that call.

 

1. We have a clarification that another shooter can act in that capacity.

2. It is the PM’s duty, but the shooter gets the DQ?

3. The shooter can’t rely on the LTO but gets a DQ if there isn’t one present?

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

I would question whether the party line being in favor of a LTO is true, if it were there would be a rule stating that there is a LTO at every match. SASS isn’t the Wire and the Wire isn’t SASS. None of the four clubs down here that I frequent have a LTO. Occasionally a posse may have one but there are no LTO’s, designated or show the next shooter.

 

3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

My post had nothing to do with 'thread drift'. 

You posted a boldly inaccurate statement about Ca handgun drop testing.

End of story.....

OLG 

 

And I readily acknowledged the error.  But the error was contained only in an example that was peripheral to the main thread questions.  The thread is about SASS rules, not California gun laws or particular firearms. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

 

I can’t agree with that call.

 

1. We have a clarification that another shooter can act in that capacity.

2. It is the PM’s duty, but the shooter gets the DQ?

3. The shooter can’t rely on the LTO but gets a DQ if there isn’t one present?

I think being checked by another shooter is in fact in conformance with current  loading requirements.  So Snakebite's posse direction is totally consistent.

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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6 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

The strongest I find is page 28:

 

  • Competitors shall unload each of their firearms at the designated unloading area and have them visually inspected to make sure all chambers are empty.

 

Not self-inspection, clearly someone else. And that implies an ULTO. I find no similar wording for an LTO other than the role is defined in the same section as the ULTO.

 

SHB pg 28

Quote

 The competitor may never blame the Loading or Unloading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm or a firearm not unloaded. At no time will this claim be grounds for dismissal of penalties.   

 

Which states that there are both LTO and ULTO, that they both have jobs, and the shooter cannot blame either of them when they have a problem at the LT or the ULT.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

For who? The shooter or the person that failed to check the shooter?

It's the responsibility of the shooter to be checked.  I've had situations where when I was called up to shoot, I had to ask the TO to first come over to the LT and check my pistols.  They did so willingly and appreciated my effort to conform to procedures.  

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think we need to distinguish between what SASS expects from a club conducting a match by SASS rules and guidelines and between rules that govern a competitor’s conduct.

That's a valid thought.  There really is a difference, and it might represent the best way to resolve all of this.  Thx. 

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

It's the responsibility of the shooter to be checked.  I've had situations where when I was called up to shoot, I had to ask the TO to first come over to the LT and check my pistols.  They did so willingly and appreciated my effort to vonform to procedures.  

But did they check your rifle to make sure there wasn’t a round in the chamber?

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57 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think we need to distinguish between what SASS expects from a club conducting a match by SASS rules and guidelines and between rules that govern a competitor’s conduct.

 

52 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's a valid thought.  There really is a difference, and it might represent the best way to resolve all of this.  Thx. 

 

Found this on page 11:

 

PARTICIPANT CONDUCT

 

Safety

 

Our sport, by its very nature, has the potential to be dangerous and a serious accident may occur. Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer.

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

But did they check your rifle to make sure there wasn’t a round in the chamber?

No, not the rifle.   Recently at the Western Regional, the T.O. checked both pistols, but the rifle would be evident enough as soon as it was first levered.   

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

SHB pg 28

 

Which states that there are both LTO and ULTO, that they both have jobs, and the shooter cannot blame either of them when they have a problem at the LT or the ULT.

Like my other examples, it implies it. And nothing I have found implies the positions are optional.

 

I suppose the addition of the text "All positions must be filled in a SASS shoot" to the rules could end discussion.

 

And as @Yul Lose points out, the entire loading procedure must be observed to ensure safety.

 

I know of no shooting sport where competitors can load their firearms without oversight, nor do I know of one where one can show (prove) proper loading or show (prove) clear without oversight.

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2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Yul,

 

I based that comment on earlier posts stating that PWB (spokesman for the ROC), Snakebite (former chair of the ROC), and the ROC have all said one is required.

 

AM

Thank you Allie.  Some here have disrespected Snakebite, possibly without understanding his long history of involvement and contributions to our sport/game and its operational rules.  The rules we have today have had a long history of prior deliberation among some very experienced people.  When they talk, I tend to listen.  There is always more to the story than what I thought I knew. 

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3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

No, not the rifle.   Recently at the Western Regional, the T.O. checked both pistols, but the rifle would be evident enough as soon as it was first levered.   

Not really. There was a thread or a mention in the last couple of weeks about a round or rounds that got hung up in a dirty rifle magazine and the rifle was cleared at the ULT and the rounds in the rifle were discovered later on at the next stage. So it is conceivable that a rifle could be carried to the line with a round in the chamber if the person loading the rifle didn’t notice the live round when he closed the lever to load the rifle. If the ROC is really going to enforce the LO requirement wouldn’t it be prudent to have someone check every shooter to make sure the rifle doesn’t have a round in the chamber if the rifle is being carried from the LT to the line?

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think you're making my point that some guns we are using are not safe if dropped, therefore we need to be sure there is not a live round under the hammer.  What guns they happen to be is irrelevant. 

I don’t think I ever implied they were safe if dropped with a live round under the hammer? That’s why we only load 5. My only point was that you were singling out Rugers with the transfer bars removed like they were somehow less safe than Colts or Colt clones. I personally have no problems with a LTO, I am also ok without a LTO however I think there must always be a ULTO even if it is the previous shooter waiting and verifying the next shooters guns are clear.

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10 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thank you Allie.  Some here have disrespected Snakebite, possibly without understanding his long history of involvement and contributions to our sport/game and its operational rules.  The rules we have today have had a long history of prior deliberation among some very experienced people.  When they talk, I tend to listen.  There is always more to the story than what I thought I knew. 

I hope you’re not referring to me with your blanket accusation of disrespecting Snakebite because we question the ambiguity of some of the so called rules because you’d be mistaken as you are on nearly everything you bring up. You started this thread at his bidding or not but it’s out there so don’t criticize those that question a so called rule that you can’t even clearly define.

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8 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I hope you’re not referring to me with your blanket accusation of disrespecting Snakebite because we question the ambiguity of some of the so called rules because you’d be mistaken as you are on nearly everything you bring up. You started this thread at his bidding or not but it’s out there so don’t criticize those that question a so called rule that you can’t even clearly define.

No, Yul, I was not.  Nothing you've said was in any way disrespectful.  Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify.  DDD

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10 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I hope you’re not referring to me with your blanket accusation of disrespecting Snakebite because we question the ambiguity of some of the so called rules because you’d be mistaken as you are on nearly everything you bring up. You started this thread at his bidding or not but it’s out there so don’t criticize those that question a so called rule that you can’t even clearly define.

Actually, I started this drifting thread to try to understand the pertinent  rules or lack thereof.  Snakebite had no part in it, in fact I think his admonition to just "ask your TG" was aimed principally at me.   

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21 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I think there must always be a ULTO even if it is the previous shooter waiting and verifying the next shooters guns are clear.

100% agreement.  For many years I was an official who had to investigate hunting accidents.  90% of them occurred while leaving the field and while putting "unloaded" firearms into vehicles.  Most were grusome shotgun fatalities of family members.   I will admit that even with that background I've arrived at home with CAS guns after practicing alone and found a live round in my rifle CHAMBER when I checked it to clean it.  It can and does happen.  A second set of eyes is absolutely the best assurance.  

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34 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Not really. There was a thread or a mention in the last couple of weeks about a round or rounds that got hung up in a dirty rifle magazine and the rifle was cleared at the ULT and the rounds in the rifle were discovered later on at the next stage. So it is conceivable that a rifle could be carried to the line with a round in the chamber if the person loading the rifle didn’t notice the live round when he closed the lever to load the rifle. If the ROC is really going to enforce the LO requirement wouldn’t it be prudent to have someone check every shooter to make sure the rifle doesn’t have a round in the chamber if the rifle is being carried from the LT to the line?

 Your point is valid.  YES, it would be a hazard and a SDQ if carried to the Stage in that condition, but not if caught at the LT.   That is why I requested the TO to come over to the LT rather than moving to the starting position.   Whether or not they checked all the guns was beyond my control.  

 

I realize there are a lot of conditions that a loading observer might not catch, but you hope between the shooter themselves and the second observer, both paying attention, that critical things get noticed and corrected before movement occurs.   

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11 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

100% agreement.  For many years I was an official who had to investigate hunting accidents.  90% of them occurred while leaving the field and while putting "unloaded" firearms into vehicles.  Most were grusome shotgun fatalities of family members.   I will admit that even with that background I've arrived at home with CAS guns after practicing alone and found a live round in my rifle CHAMBER when I checked it to clean it.  It can and does happen.  A second set of eyes is absolutely the best assurance.  

So then you’re in agreement with me that a true LO would be responsible for assuring that the rifle chamber is clear before the lever is closed at the loading table? I was on an after school pheasant hunting outing one afternoon in my senior year in high school and there was a shotgun leaning against a pickup and when the door was slammed the SG fell and discharged when it hit the ground and killed one of my classmates/ friend instantly.

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4 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I based that comment on earlier posts stating that PWB (spokesman for the ROC), Snakebite (former chair of the ROC), and the ROC have all said one is required.

Allie, they can say anything they want all day. None of them can point to actual page or rule in the current shooters handbook. So there is no rule. Snakebites reference was to old version of the ROl which is no longer used.

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3 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I was on Snakebite's posse at an annual match. He said it would be a SDQ for failure to follow loading or unloading procedures.

How long ago was that? And again show me the rule. None of the 3 referenced shooters have come back with an actual rule. There's a description of the LTO's duty but no rule and consequences anywhere that I can find.

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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

I suppose the addition of the text "All positions must be filled in a SASS shoot" to the rules could end discussion.

Theres a bunch of positions and responsibilities listed int the shooters handbook. Most aren't filled My example is expeditor.

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thank you Allie.  Some here have disrespected Snakebite, possibly without understanding his long history of involvement and contributions to our sport/game and its operational rules.  The rules we have today have had a long history of prior deliberation among some very experienced people.  When they talk, I tend to listen. 

I'll listen to them also. But there is no rule listed yet. Just comments about the past rule books.

 

So if a Possee shoots a stage with no LTO everyone gets a SDQ? Or just the Posse Marshal or MD?

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615
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Some more Mud. I shoot cap and ball. And for me to know which chamber doesn't have powder and ball in it before I cap I look at the cylinder face. And then cap accordingly. Is the LTO going to take my pistol, look at the cylinder face and then give me permission to to cap? NO.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

 

I can’t agree with that call.

 

1. We have a clarification that another shooter can act in that capacity.

2. It is the PM’s duty, but the shooter gets the DQ?

3. The shooter can’t rely on the LTO but gets a DQ if there isn’t one present?

What's not to agree with?

It didn't copy well, but here is a page from our Shooter's book covering the annual match.  It is in a prominent location and is in Bold print. Every Shooter gets one and EVERY shooter signs an agreement stating that they will comply. There is no reason that any  shooter should be unaware of our requirement. We make a prominent announcement at the Shooter's meeting and every posse leader is told to reinforce it and not to start until there is a LT officer on the bench.  It is pointed out that failure to follow LT/ULT procedures is a SDQ. That has be done at our range for the past 30 years! Yes... from the beginning we have required that every shooter be checked. When we conducted our annual match during the covid event in California, we allowed other shooters to check each other. We did not relax the requirement to be checked. 

Rules

 
 

 

 

 

 

We hope you all have a really great time at our match.  SASS rules apply, plus there’s a few other rules you need to be aware of.

 

1.   The Fresno Rifle & Pistol Club, our host range, does not allow any holstered firearms outside of the Cowboy shooting area, Cowboy HQ

and while walking to and from the camping/parking areas to our CAS events.  You must remove your holstered firearms  prior to visiting

the FRPC range house, the range restrooms, while at the Silhouette/

Long Range events, or the Shotgun Range

 

2.  Here at Fort Miller you are required to load and unload under supervision.  When it’s your turn to load/unload, make sure there is

a Loading Table Officer. When unloading you must show "clear" to the ULTO.  

 

3.  The FRPC is a dry range .  Our insurance and the FRPC BOD requires

us to point this out. This is your notice. PLEASE, show no containers! Also. please remember.. Pack it in--pack it out!

 

 

Our main goal is for everyone to have a safe and fun match.  Please follow all safety rules and encourage your fellow posse members to do the same.  If you have any questions about any of our rules, please don’t hesitate to ask.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Some more Mud. I shoot cap and ball. And for me to know which chamber doesn't have powder and ball in it before I cap I look at the cylinder face. And then cap accordingly. Is the LTO going to take my pistol, look at the cylinder face and then give me permission to to cap? NO.

All they are checking for is to make sure that you don't have a cap under the hammer. It doesn't matter if there is powder and ball in the cylinder of not.

As for the references being from the old RO manuals, that is correct. My issue is that they have NEVER been rescinded or changed either by the TGs or by a Mandate from "Above". It has been "Clarified" to allow another shooter to act in stead of an appointed LTO and do the checking. But the need to be checked has not been done away with.  

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Snakebite, just a point of order.  Range rules at Fort Miller are not SASS rules.  As Irish Ike pointed out, there's not a rule in the existing SASS documentation requiring a LTO, nor a penalty for not having one.  Only enough information to make it a guideline, not a rule.

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46 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Theres a bunch of positions and responsibilities listed int the shooters handbook. Most aren't filled My example is expeditor.

I don't find expediter in the core handbook. I did find this on page 20:

 

  • Posse Marshal/Deputy Posse Marshal  is in charge of a posse and is required to ensure all posse positions are manned

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