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Improper coaching <> reshoot


wyliefoxEsquire
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I am looking for examples of when a reshoot was NOT allowed. 

Ideally this would be an example from a state shoot or higher. 

This bullet point says that improper coaching is NOT automatically grounds for a reshoot.

 

Slide #24 RO I Safety Course

 

Proper Coaching vs. Improper Coaching

ü  Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

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Shooter shot rifle sequence differently to other shooters, but still acceptably.  T.O. became confused and called out " one more" at the end.  Shooter reloaded an 11th round and re-shot the last target, (unnecessarily), thinking he must have jacked one out.   No Procedural was called, but no reshoot was awarded for the reload time loss caused by improper coaching.   Shooter received an apology.  

 

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15 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Shooter shot rifle sequence differently to other shooters, but still acceptably.  T.O. became confused and called out " one more" at the end.  Shooter reloaded an 11th round and re-shot the last target, (unnecessarily), thinking he must have jacked one out.   No Procedural was called, but no reshoot was awarded for the reload time loss caused by improper coaching.   Shooter received an apology.  

 

 

IMO. that should have been a reshoot as the TO was confused and not the shooter.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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Shooter hears someone yelling about target order.  Shooter finishes gets flustered, gets the order wrong due to yelled out instructions and finishes the stage with a "P".  No reshoot as the yelling about target order was coming from other shooters and NOT the TO.  This is not considered improper coaching as it wasn't the TO.

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10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Shooter shot rifle sequence differently to other shooters, but still acceptably.  T.O. became confused and called out " one more" at the end.  Shooter reloaded an 11th round and re-shot the last target, (unnecessarily), thinking he must have jacked one out.   No Procedural was called, but no reshoot was awarded for the reload time loss caused by improper coaching.   Shooter received an apology.  

 

 

shooting more rounds that the stage called for is a P. It is not an option to not award the P just because the TO was confused.

 

SHB pg 21-22

Quote

 Procedural (P) infractions include:

Firing more rounds than specified in the stage instructions.

 

Shooter should have been scored with the P and offered a reshoot due to improper coaching.

 

Even with the TO calling 1 more, when there wasn't 1 more, causing the shooter extra time, is grounds for a reshoot.

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11 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I am looking for examples of when a reshoot was NOT allowed. 

Ideally this would be an example from a state shoot or higher. 

This bullet point says that improper coaching is NOT automatically grounds for a reshoot.

 

Slide #24 RO I Safety Course

 

Proper Coaching vs. Improper Coaching

ü  Improper coaching that either impedes the shooters progress or results in a procedural penalty may be grounds for a reshoot.

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

Yep seen it happen twice at regionals.  Sucks but right call

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How about this.  Pistols shot last.  Shooter reholsters pistols.  TO turns to checks spotters. Spotter at arm's length from shooter says, "He's got one more shot in the right pistol.".  Shooter ask, "Why didn't you say something?".  Spotter, "I didn't think of it.". :angry:

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

Had that happen to me. I accepted the SDQ, but I also told the TO to keep quiet next time. Had he done so, I'd have earned a P instead of SDQ.

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Another example...

 

Shooter is at the loading table. Asks the guy next to him, "Hey, what target do we start on?"

 

The guy says, "Double from the left."

 

Shooter goes up and shoots a double tap sweep from the left.

 

Shooter gets a P because it was to be two single tap sweeps, both starting on the left.

 

Shooter says, "Hey, I received improper instruction from Joe Bob at the loading table that resulted in my receiving a procedural. I want a reshoot.'

 

TO Says, 'NO!'

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There was a time, when some shooters might go out of their way to run over a TO after the shooter made a mistake on the stage in order to claim that the to impeded their progress.

 

They have come back now to clarify what the appropriate penalty should be, and it is not a reshoot.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

Best example so far.

 

Stan

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Don't know if this fits in what your asking, but I'm going to tell it anyway....interesting story.

 

I was the TO at a state match many years ago. Shooter gets to his rifle and on the 3rd shot, it was really a fart/ mouse/ pppphph load but I saw it clear the barrel and hit the dirt halfway to the target. ( as a TO, I watch shooters hands, gun in hand, not targets) I didn't say a word, shooter hollers "squib" and restages rifle and continues to finish the stage.

Once the shooter gets to the unloading table and sees that he has no squib, he hollers over to me that the gun was clear and he'll take a reshoot.

I told him, he doesn't get a reshoot cause I never said a word to impede him cause I saw it leave the barrel and that this was on him, it was his call not mine. He was not happy with me since he didn't get a reshoot and had to eat 7 rifle misses he didn't shoot.

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5 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

I didn't say a word, shooter hollers "squib" and restages rifle and continues to finish the stage.

5 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

I saw it clear the barrel and hit the dirt halfway to the target....

 

 

Well, TO is instructed to SAFELY ASSIST THE SHOOTER THROUGH THE STAGE.  This occurrence has happened to me while running timer, and three times I have called out to the shooter "bullet left the barrel, keep shooting"   Each of those shooters was very glad I called that out loudly.  Especially the one who "was sure" he  really did have a squib.   But you can't yell that if you didn't see the bullet come out of barrel - too much danger to barrel and even shooter or yourself if you were mistaken.

 

This seems to be a better approach IF you know the shooter will hear you and understand.  Don't do this if the shooter is not able to hear you!

 

good luck, GJ

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13 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

This happened at the Colorado State match last weekend. Everyone in the peanut gallery including the TO told the shooter to move. And, he earned a SDQ.

Not my posse. People need to learn when to stay quiet. Another situation where "no coaching" is better.

 

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7 hours ago, Assassin said:

This happened at the Colorado State match last weekend. Everyone in the peanut gallery including the TO told the shooter to move. And, he earned a SDQ.

Not my posse. People need to learn when to stay quiet. Another situation where "no coaching" is better.

 

It's not on the peanut gallery or the TO.  if the shooter chooses to move with  cocked gun it's on them.  And it's not improper coaching.    Why do people keep trying to put blame where it doesnt belong?  

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7 hours ago, Assassin said:

This happened at the Colorado State match last weekend. Everyone in the peanut gallery including the TO told the shooter to move. And, he earned a SDQ.

Not my posse. People need to learn when to stay quiet. Another situation where "no coaching" is better.

 

It's not on the peanut gallery or the TO.  if the shooter chooses to move with  cocked gun it's on them.  And it's not improper coaching.    Why do people keep trying to put blame where it doesnt belong?  

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3 hours ago, evil dogooder said:

It's not on the peanut gallery or the TO.  if the shooter chooses to move with  cocked gun it's on them.  And it's not improper coaching.    Why do people keep trying to put blame where it doesnt belong?  

If the hammer is cocked it's already a procedural.  At that point coaching is moot. Coaching could potentially turn into a safety issue. And, it did when the shooter took a step because of the confusion of multiple people yelling at the shooter. Personally, I'd rather not be coached unless it's a safety concern. The shooter can be pissed at me over the procedural, probably not as pissed as if they got a SDQ. Yes, it's ultimately the shooters responsibility to navigate the stage safely. 

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2 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I thought this was all hashed out months ago with a long discussion on the topic. Either ask for no coaching or any action by the shooter in response to coaching is still the shooters responsibility. 

Yes, there was discussion. The human element is the culprit. None of us are the same.

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2 hours ago, Assassin said:

If the hammer is cocked it's already a procedural.  At that point coaching is moot. Coaching could potentially turn into a safety issue. And, it did when the shooter took a step because of the confusion of multiple people yelling at the shooter. Personally, I'd rather not be coached unless it's a safety concern. The shooter can be pissed at me over the procedural, probably not as pissed as if they got a SDQ. Yes, it's ultimately the shooters responsibility to navigate the stage safely. 

If no round has yet gone downrange in the Stage (not stated in the OP), my understanding is the T.O. can stop the shooter, allow/direct the shooter to safely de-cock, re-index, show clear, and re-holster.   Essentially a Re-start with no  Procedural assigned.

   

But if a round HAS already gone downrange, the gun must be discharged from the incorrect position where it was cocked, earning a "P".  

 

 

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22 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

Don't know if this fits in what your asking, but I'm going to tell it anyway....interesting story.

 

I was the TO at a state match many years ago. Shooter gets to his rifle and on the 3rd shot, it was really a fart/ mouse/ pppphph load but I saw it clear the barrel and hit the dirt halfway to the target. ( as a TO, I watch shooters hands, gun in hand, not targets) I didn't say a word, shooter hollers "squib" and restages rifle and continues to finish the stage.

Once the shooter gets to the unloading table and sees that he has no squib, he hollers over to me that the gun was clear and he'll take a reshoot.

I told him, he doesn't get a reshoot cause I never said a word to impede him cause I saw it leave the barrel and that this was on him, it was his call not mine. He was not happy with me since he didn't get a reshoot and had to eat 7 rifle misses he didn't shoot.

 

Don't assume that because you as the TO saw something exit the barrel on a shotgun that there was not a squib. Twice I have seen the shot exit the barrel and make it half way to the target but the wad stopped a couple inches short of exiting the barrel.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

If no round has yet gone downrange in the Stage (not stated in the OP), my understanding is the T.O. can stop the shooter, allow/direct the shooter to safely de-cock, re-index, show clear, and re-holster.   Essentially a Re-start with no  Procedural assigned.

   

But if a round HAS already gone downrange, the gun must be discharged from the incorrect position where it was cocked, earning a "P".  

 

 

The TO can attempt to stop the shooter.

Fast shooters will have multiple shots downrange before most TO's can say a word. Slower shooters are easier to control.

 

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There are also shooters that don't hear so go and if anything is said they will most likely stop and look at the TO and say - What?  :ph34r:

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14 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Don't assume that because you as the TO saw something exit the barrel on a shotgun that there was not a squib. Twice I have seen the shot exit the barrel and make it half way to the target but the wad stopped a couple inches short of exiting the barrel.

 

 

OK, I can agree with your statement about shotgun rounds, but I didn't say anything about a shotgun round, maybe you need to re-read my post before you quote me. I said rifle round.

Oh and BTW everyone, the shooter took off so fast to the next shooting position, I didn't have the time to try to tell him that the rifle was clear and he could continue with it, so I just let him continue on his own.

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On 9/16/2021 at 7:11 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Let us say that that the shooter pulls and cocked their pistol at position A. However, they were supposed to be shot at Position B.

 

If the TO indicated that the pistols were to be shot at position B, that is technically proper instruction, but having the shooter move to position B once the pistol is cocked is technically not correct instruction.

 

However, if the shooter moves with a cocked pistol to position B, they earn a SDQ. There will be no reshoot. The shooter cannot argue that they received improper coaching causing which impeded them causing them to move with the cocked pistol and should receive a reshoot.

Cow Pokes,

 

I am still looking for an actual example that happened.  The one above appears to be how it could happen.  

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33 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Cow Pokes,

 

I am still looking for an actual example that happened.  The one above appears to be how it could happen.  

 

It has happened more times that I think any of us care to admit...

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Slim & Jack,

I mistake, thank you.

 

Cowpokes, that is ONE example that has happened multiple times.  Are there any others?

 

A shooter who is having a bad run intentionally contacts the TO, expecting a reshoot for impeding them. 

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7 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Shooter loses track of target order when drawing second pistol and asks TO which target to shoot. TO tells him wrong. Shooter isn't entitled to a reshoot.


That would be considered "improper coaching" = RESHOOT.
It is also often the cause of the dreaded "
Trifecta" (P/Miss/MSV).
A reshoot in that case (usually after resolving a temporary "gun stoppage") is specifically addressed regarding requiring MD authorization to override the 
MSV (which normally carries over for a reshoot):
 

Quote

The Match Director has the authority to override an “RO assisted” MSV penalty for a reshoot.

SHB p.20

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I personally have never asked for a reshoot. A couple times it has been offered - once I took it the other time didn’t. Ultimately it’s the shooters responsibility to keep their head in the stage and shoot it properly. A lot goes on, but even with all the outside verbal traffic it’s ultimately up to the shooter to navigate through it IMHO. 

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