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Tennessee williams
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   Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

 

  Shooter unloads his long guns from the trunk of his car and sweeps 3 people while putting them in the gun cart. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

Edited by Tennessee williams
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37 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

   Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

 

  Shooter unloads his long guns from the trunk of his car and sweeps 3 people while putting them in the gun cart. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

From page 17:

The 170 rule does not apply only when on a stage.

 

 

Quote

 

The 170° rule ... Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is ... always in effect.

  • A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

  • Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and

    muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

  • Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification

    penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.

 

 

Seems all three situations can warrant an SDQ for first offense, an MDQ for the second infraction.

 

For the first scenario, there is no distinction on a stage between a loaded or unloaded firearm. 170 is broken.

 

For the second and third scenarios, even if the gun's actions are open and they are unloaded (both are transport requirements), the muzzle control requirement still applies before and after any stage. The muzzle must be in a safe direction.

 

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24 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

From page 17:

The 170 rule does not apply only when on a stage.

 

 

 

Seems all three situations can warrant an SDQ for first offense, an MDQ for the second infraction.

 

For the first scenario, there is no distinction on a stage between a loaded or unloaded firearm. 170 is broken.

 

For the second and third scenarios, even if the gun's actions are open and they are unloaded (both are transport requirements), the muzzle control requirement still applies before and after any stage. The muzzle must be in a safe direction.

 

These rules apply during the course of fire.  The 170 is not in effect in the parking lot, or on the way to the loading table.  Sweeping shooters when not on the firing line is a club matter, not subject to rules that apply when on the firing line. 

 

You don't in fact know that the 170 was broken, all you know is that three shooters were swept.  Where were the shooters?  Were they safely behind the shooter, or within his 170?  The OP does not state.  We do know, according to Possum Williams, that three shooters were swept, assuming (hate that word) that they did not place themselves within the shooter's 170 the proper call is a SDQ.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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All 3 incidents can be stage dq’s. May or may not have anything to do with the 170 rule. All are considered unsafe gun handling. 

I’ve seen both the first 2 called at EOT. At the very least the 3rd situation would get a swift talking to. 

Edited by doc roy l. pain
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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

These rules apply during the course of fire.  The 170 is not in effect in the parking lot, or on the way to the loading table. 

That is not how I read the rule:

 

Quote

The 170° rule ... Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is ... always in effect.

 

I do agree the requirement to point downrange applies on-stage. When on stage, there is a 170 cone. When not on stage, the transport requirement is "a safe direction." And this is part of "The 170 Rule" section of the rules.

 

As to if it applies in the parking lot... You might have an argument for penalties not applying. Range rules might apply but a SASS penalty might not. Are you at a match from when you register until scores are announced? Or are you at a match from when you enter the range until you leave?

 

I assume we agree all 3 instances are examples of unsafe gun handling.

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19 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

That is not how I read the rule:

 

 

I do agree the requirement to point downrange applies on-stage. When on stage, there is a 170 cone. When not on stage, the transport requirement is "a safe direction." And this is part of "The 170 Rule" section of the rules.

 

As to if it applies in the parking lot... You might have an argument for penalties not applying. Range rules might apply but a SASS penalty might not. Are you at a match from when you register until scores are announced? Or are you at a match from when you enter the range until you leave?

 

I assume we agree all 3 instances are examples of unsafe gun handling.

I suggest you read the description for Stage Disqualifications and consider whether it would be reasonable to apply them in instances away from the firing line.  For example, a cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand.  In your opinion, if this happens away from the firing line, for example, at your gun cart, is it a SDQ.  If not, why not?  What if one of your revolvers falls out of your cart and sweeps someone, SDQ?  Why not?

 

We can certainly agree that they are unsafe acts, and had I been one of those swept I would have expected some contrition and acknowledgement that it wouldn't happen again or I would have complained to whomever I deemed appropriate, but not as a SASS rules violation.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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OK, what about when my guns are riding in a vertical position in my gun cart.  As soon as I take ahold of the handle, tip my cart backwards to move it, most of the long guns in my cart are sweeping anyone that is walking behind me?

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Quote

guns are riding in a vertical position in my gun cart. 

 

That's not a SASS sweep with a gun.  You are not on a SASS firing line when you have put your guns in your cart.. 

 

Long guns are open and empty in carts.  We certainly don't encourage CARELESS or uncontrolled loss of muzzle awareness.  But there is no chance of injury here if proper loading/unloading/cold range procedures are followed.

 

The range on which you are shooting may have restrictions about such things, however.  Check with the match director.  SASS does not provide all the rules for SAFE gun handling.   Just because SASS rules are silent about something, does not mean you are wise to do something.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

From page 17:

The 170 rule does not apply only when on a stage.

 

 

 

Seems all three situations can warrant an SDQ for first offense, an MDQ for the second infraction.

 

 

Are there situations when people are careless that need to be addressed? Yes. We must do every reasonable thing to make sure we are safe. But common sense and the intent of the rules needs to be applied. If we strictly applied the rule for every little apparent infraction, I think we would have a score sheet with more SDQ's and MDQs' than posted times.

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

... had I been one of those swept I would have expected some contrition and acknowledgement that it wouldn't happen again or I would have complained to whomever I deemed appropriate, but not as a SASS rules violation.

That sounds like the approach fitting to this sport. With firearms safety, a teaching moment can be far more effective than an SDQ, particularly in situations where a little more future attention to detail can last a lifetime.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I suggest you read the description for Stage Disqualifications and consider whether it would be reasonable to apply them in instances away from the firing line.  For example, a cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand.  In your opinion, if this happens away from the firing line, for example, at your gun cart, is it a SDQ.  If not, why not?  What if one of your revolvers falls out of your cart and sweeps someone, SDQ?  Why not?

 

We can certainly agree that they are unsafe acts, and had I been one of those swept I would have expected some contrition and acknowledgement that it wouldn't happen again or I would have complained to whomever I deemed appropriate, but not as a SASS rules violation.

Agree.  Without a firing line, there is no way to assign a 170 degree penalty.  Off stage safety issues are not penalties, assigned to particular stages (how could they be).  But if they are serious and the person is cautioned but persists in repeating them, it is time to eject somebody from the range, irrespective of the match.  SDQs and MDQs are moot at that point.  

 

I would add that sweep violations can and do occur absent the 170 limit being violated.  One example is in a stage with downrange movement behind a re-staged gun that falls and sweeps the T.O.

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I suggest you read the description for Stage Disqualifications and consider whether it would be reasonable to apply them in instances away from the firing line.  For example, a cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hand.  In your opinion, if this happens away from the firing line, for example, at your gun cart, is it a SDQ.  If not, why not?  What if one of your revolvers falls out of your cart and sweeps someone, SDQ?  Why not?

 

We can certainly agree that they are unsafe acts, and had I been one of those swept I would have expected some contrition and acknowledgement that it wouldn't happen again or I would have complained to whomever I deemed appropriate, but not as a SASS rules violation.

Agree.  Without a firing line, there is no way to assign a 170 degree penalty.  Off stage safety issues are not penalties, assigned to particular stages (how could they be).  But if they are serious and the person is cautioned but persists in repeating them, it is time to eject somebody from the range, irrespective of the match.  SDQs and MDQs are moot at that point.  

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6 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

All 3 incidents can be stage dq’s. May or may not have anything to do with the 170 rule. All are considered unsafe gun handling. 

I’ve seen both the first 2 called at EOT. At the very least the 3rd situation would get a swift talking to. 

How was the 2nd scenario handled at EOT? Handbook-wise I don't see a difference in a shooter travelling from the gun cart to the loading table and a shooter travelling from one stage to the next. SDQ for the stage they were on the way to the loading table of? I've seen warnings given but never a call made off the firing line and have wondered why not.

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54 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

How was the 2nd scenario handled at EOT? Handbook-wise I don't see a difference in a shooter travelling from the gun cart to the loading table and a shooter travelling from one stage to the next. SDQ for the stage they were on the way to the loading table of? I've seen warnings given but never a call made off the firing line and have wondered why not.

Shooter was walking from stage to unloading table. Let the shotgun barrel drop to about a 45 degree angle instead of keeping it straight up. One of the match officials was walking across he stage at the time and said the shooter swept him in doing so. Was given a stage DQ for the one just shot prior to heading for the unloading table.  Shooter appealed the call and it was reviewed by the powers that be and they ruled in the match officials favor. That was in 2019 at EOT. 

Edited by doc roy l. pain
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9 minutes ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Shooter was walking from stage to unloading table. Let the shotgun barrel drop to about a 45 degree angle instead of keeping it straight up. One of the match officials was walking across he stage at the time and said the shooter swept him in doing so. Was given a stage DQ for the one just shot prior to heading for the unloading table.  Shooter appealed the call and it was reviewed by the powers that be and they ruled in the match officials favor. That was in 2019 at EOT. 

He was still on the Firing Line, even though not on the stage.  

 

"Firing Line:  From the first firearm placed on the Loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the Unloading Table. "

 

Stage:  Synonymois with "Course of Fire"  from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified "ready" to the last shot fired".

 

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The only "retroactive" penalty (i.e. assessed on a previous stage) is the SDQ for "Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures".
 

 

 

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If a match official (or anyone) is DOWNRANGE from the shooter as  seems to be the case in the previous example...that seems extremely harsh.  For many years Down Under we simply did NOT allow a shooter to walk  "behind"   anybody on their way to the unloading table.. which of course avoids that problem.  (I got quite a shock on my early US visits  when spotters/others would be far enough forward that the shooter had to walk behind them.)  As for the "170 applying" all the time...that means ANYONE who carries any gun (NOT on the firing line) with the barrel vertical is in breach.   The 170 applies upwards too.   Seems to lack commonsense... (And as already pointed out - without a firing line how is the 170 defined?)  A crowded car park....muzzles vertical seems like a really good idea to me! 

Edited by Constable Nelson #11784
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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

"Firing Line:  From the first firearm placed on the Loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the Unloading Table. "

 

Stage:  Synonymois with "Course of Fire"  from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified "ready" to the last shot fired".

 

   I've always thought they had those definitions backwards. It goes against all common sense. Who has ever heard of a firing line you can't fire from (loading and unloading tables)? And when you think of something being synonymous with course of fire, you don't think "stage" you think firing line.

I think they had a typo the first time they defined the terms and didn't see it before it got printed and figured it'd cost too much to fix it. Kinda makes us look silly IMO.

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

   I've always thought they had those definitions backwards. It goes against all common sense. Who has ever heard of a firing line you can't fire from (loading and unloading tables)? And when you think of something being synonymous with course of fire, you don't think "stage" you think firing line.

I think they had a typo the first time they defined the terms and didn't see it before it got printed and figured it'd cost too much to fix it. Kinda makes us look silly IMO.

Very hard to quarrel with your logic, but the language is still there in SHB. 

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8 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   I've always thought they had those definitions backwards. It goes against all common sense. Who has ever heard of a firing line you can't fire from (loading and unloading tables)? And when you think of something being synonymous with course of fire, you don't think "stage" you think firing line.

I think they had a typo the first time they defined the terms and didn't see it before it got printed and figured it'd cost too much to fix it. Kinda makes us look silly IMO.

The way I understand it...

 

This is the only shooting sport I participate in where arms are not loaded and unloaded on the stage, hence firing line in this sport. In the other sports, only one competitor has loaded firearms, and this only on the stage. In those sports, stage is synonymous with firing line.

 

There are easily three or more competitors with loaded firearms at the line. Certainly, whoever is up. Then the competitors who have loaded at the loading table, and potentially a competitor with a loaded firearms (bad gun) where a range official has carried the bad gun to the unloading table.

 

This extended firing line (before and after the actual stage) keeps the posse moving, and it moves safely.

 

I think if there were a safety typo, it would get fixed regardless of any cost.

 

But I have felt your confusion in the past. And in this thread, a key question for me is how to interpret the words "between" and therefore "always" in the 170 rule section:

 

Quote

Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is always in effect.

During the stage, duh.

 

Before and after the stage. The tightest interpretation I can put on this is the firing line.

 

Between stages... Not anywhere on the firing line?

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 Shooter moves from 1 shooting position to the next with unloaded shotgun and sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

 

  Shooter removes his long guns from the cart on the 2nd stage of the day. On the way to the loading table, the shooter sweeps 3 people. WTC and where are any applicable penalties applied?

 

  Shooter unloads his long guns from the trunk of his car and sweeps 3 people while putting them in the gun cart. WTC and where are any penalties applied.

 

 

No penalty.
You are at a shotgun/trap match. 

 

Yup, that's true, but sure makes us SASS shooters a bit nervous at first.

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The paragraph titled The 170° Rule on page 17 of the Shooter's Handbook says that "failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a SDQ penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a MDQ penalty".  Per the list on page 22 of the SHB, unsafe firearm handling is a stage disqualification & sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm is a stage disqualification.  Per the list on pages 22-23 of the SHB, sweeping anyone with a loaded firearm is a match disqualification.  It doesn't specify in any of those 3 sections where or when those events have to take place to receive the penalty.

 

The parking lot situation isn't part of the match, but should be addressed directly.  Personally I don't like looking down the muzzle of a firearm any where, any time.

 

Holler

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